Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[freethedevil]

They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense.

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams.

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

[An Unbiased Fan]

They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense.

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams.

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

[freethedevil]

Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

Problem here is that the first two teams Lebron faced were weak. Pistons were a 39 win team with negative SRS, and the Hawks were only a 1.70 SRS team

You're welcome to compare stats from lebron's magic series alone then. lbj still comes out ahead.

[freethedevil]

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams.

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

Would you argue peak kawhi was a pre 2017 version? bcause othrwise his defense is nowhere near as good as 09 lebron's

[PaulieWal]

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams.

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

If you're going to peak defender Kawhi then you're not getting 17-19 Kawhi on offense. 09 LeBron was a two way beast and as a defender better than 19 Kawhi.

[freethedevil]

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

If you're going to peak defender Kawhi then you're not getting 17-19 Kawhi on offense. 09 LeBron was a two way beast and as a defender better than 19 Kawhi.

Im curious, iyo, did kawhi's decline defensively start in 2017? Or was the 2016 dpoy won on reputation from prior seasons

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

Problem here is that the first two teams Lebron faced were weak. Pistons were a 39 win team with negative SRS, and the Hawks were only a 1.70 SRS team

You're welcome to compare stats from lebron's magic series alone then. lbj still comes out ahead.

That's fair, but the Cavs lost to the Magic, didn't they? I have big issues with LEbron's defense or lack of....in that series. Box scores stats are nice, but both Harden & Westbrook have proven how over-inflated they can be

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm sorry is this 2019 kawhi, we're talking about here?

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

If you're going to peak defender Kawhi then you're not getting 17-19 Kawhi on offense. 09 LeBron was a two way beast and as a defender better than 19 Kawhi.

09 Lebron wasn't playing peak defense yet, IMO. He didn't start that until Miami

[Franco]

They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense. Kawhi is a better scorer, defender, shooter than LeBron and can carry the offense by himself to the finals as long as he has a good enough defense supporting cast. The combination of mo williams and Jamison are better than any combined 2nd and 3rd offensive players that kawhi had with Spurs. Lamarcus is a bum in the playoffs and doesn't like being a 2nd option scorer.

If LMA is a bum in the playoffs, then what the **** would you call Mo Williams? Holy ****

I don't see kawhi losing a series to Dwight or old KG. Dwight is overrated and had the worse finals performance for a superstar in finals history. KG was old and played pathetic in the finals. Cavs have a good enough defense and good enough role players to allow kawhi to be the man on the team. When kawhi is the clear cut man, his team hasn't lost a playoff series yet. Whether they beat lakers is the question. Kawhi already proved he can carry a teams offense by himself with raptors in the playoffs. Kawhi would do to Dwight's magic or KG's celtics what he did to Embiid's 76ers. Embiid 2019 is clearly better than 2010 KG and about equal to 2009 Dwight.

You seriously need to check a doctor for delusion. This is getting out of hand.

[freethedevil]

Problem here is that the first two teams Lebron faced were weak. Pistons were a 39 win team with negative SRS, and the Hawks were only a 1.70 SRS team

You're welcome to compare stats from lebron's magic series alone then. lbj still comes out ahead.

That's fair, but the Cavs lost to the Magic, didn't they? I have big issues with LEbron's defense or lack of....

IIRC, Orlando's player saw their fg % plummet man on man vs lebron and orlando's fg% plummeted when he was on the floor. Lebron wasn't the issue there. Besides ,we're talking about peak kawhi. Whatever issues you have with 09 lebron defensively, he protects the tim and switches well. Post 16 Kawhi does neither and his man defense became valuable when he had two-3 guys helping him each possesion

[Franco]

Peak Kawhi, which ever version you prefer.

If you're going to peak defender Kawhi then you're not getting 17-19 Kawhi on offense. 09 LeBron was a two way beast and as a defender better than 19 Kawhi.

09 Lebron wasn't playing peak defense yet, IMO. He didn't start that until Miami

09 LeBron is arguably his best defensive season. For someone who loves to bring up Kobe’s 1st team All-D, why not bring up that Bron was the runner up for DPOY in 2009?

[liamliam1234]

Because 2019 Kawhi was not better than Lebron on defence, and there is no metric suggesting he is.

Lebron’s statistics pretty much maintained in the Magic series apart from his true shooting, and he arguably even elevated, so complaining about early routs hardly makes a significant difference.

[An Unbiased Fan]

You're welcome to compare stats from lebron's magic series alone then. lbj still comes out ahead.

That's fair, but the Cavs lost to the Magic, didn't they? I have big issues with LEbron's defense or lack of....

IIRC, Orlando's player saw their fg % plummet man on man vs lebron and orlando's fg% plummeted when he was on the floor. Lebron wasn't the issue there. Besides ,we're talking about peak kawhi. Whatever issues you have with 09 lebron defensively, he protects the tim and switches well. Post 16 Kawhi does neither and his man defense became valuable when he had two-3 guys helping him each possesion

Lebron wasn't guarding the hot hand. I'm not going to rehash the 2009 series, but much like the 2010 too, Lebron wasn't taking offensive player who was causing the Cavs issues either season. A far cry from Lebron who took Rose's lunch in Miami.

Again, stats are nice, but opponent and who the player is guarding matters far more. With Peak Kawhi, we see him guard the hot player regardless of positon. That's tremendous utility, akin to what KG used to do.

[liamliam1234]

Oh, please, tell me more about how 2019 Kawhi, who was usually no better than the fourth-best defender on his team, would go ahead and guard Dwight Howard.

[An Unbiased Fan]

If you're going to peak defender Kawhi then you're not getting 17-19 Kawhi on offense. 09 LeBron was a two way beast and as a defender better than 19 Kawhi.

09 Lebron wasn't playing peak defense yet, IMO. He didn't start that until Miami

09 LeBron is arguably his best defensive season. For someone who loves to bring up Kobe’s 1st team All-D, why not bring up that Bron was the runner up for DPOY in 2009?

Peak Kawhi was actually DPOY though.......and the DPOY voting is a media thing. Which is why TD doens't have any depite being the best defender of his era.

In no way is 09 or 10 Lebron a better defender than Heatles Lebron.

[freethedevil]

Because 2019 Kawhi was not better than Lebron on defence, and there is no metric suggesting he is.

Lebron’s statistics pretty much maintained in the Magic series apart from his true shooting, and he arguably even elevated, so complaining about early routs hardly makes a significant difference.

Do you have his vs the magic stats vs his vs atlanta+detroit stats?

[Franco]

09 Lebron wasn't playing peak defense yet, IMO. He didn't start that until Miami

09 LeBron is arguably his best defensive season. For someone who loves to bring up Kobe’s 1st team All-D, why not bring up that Bron was the runner up for DPOY in 2009?

Peak Kawhi was actually DPOY though.......and the DPOY voting is a media thing.

So you’re saying 2016 is peak Kawhi? Because he didn’t win it after that.

You realize the All-Defensive teams are also media voting, right?

In no way is 09 or 10 Lebron a better defender than Heatles Lebron.

LeBron lost some motor and explosiveness in his Heat years, I could certainly see an argument for 09 and 10 as his best defensive efforts.

[freethedevil]

That's fair, but the Cavs lost to the Magic, didn't they? I have big issues with LEbron's defense or lack of....

IIRC, Orlando's player saw their fg % plummet man on man vs lebron and orlando's fg% plummeted when he was on the floor. Lebron wasn't the issue there. Besides ,we're talking about peak kawhi. Whatever issues you have with 09 lebron defensively, he protects the tim and switches well. Post 16 Kawhi does neither and his man defense became valuable when he had two-3 guys helping him each possesion

Again, stats are nice, but opponent and who the player is guarding matters far more. With Peak Kawhi, we see him guard the hot player regardless of positon. That's tremendous utility, akin to what KG used to do.

Uh, no. What matters the most is protecting the paint. KG's great man d is nice addition, but it's his paint protection that makes up most of his defensive value.

The goal isnt' to make one player less effecient, it's to make the team less efficient, and lebron did that, so...

A far cry from Lebron who took Rose's lunch in Miami.

A farcry stylistically yes, because spo was running an imitation of the bulls d, so lebron shared paint duties more and focused more on man d. Being used much differently does not mean he suddenly became a much better defender. Heat lebron was more skilled, but 09 lebron is the best rim protection we've seen from him save for the small playoff bursts we've seen from him as a big for the cavs in his second stint. You can argue and i'd probably agree heat lbj was a better defender in a vacuum, but it's not a drastic difference at all.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

14 game sample size vs 24 game sample size, you just stop.

Also Kawhi had to face Giannis and Embiid, not washed up Pistons or the terrible Hawks. 2009 Pistons and Hawks were no better than the 2019 Magic. Leonard averaged 28 PPG on 68% TS vs Magic.

[freethedevil]

Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

14 game sample size vs 22 game sample size, you just stop.

Also Kawhi had to face Giannis and Embiid, not washed up Pistons or the terrible Hawks. 2009 Pistons and Hawks were no better than the 2019 Magic. Leonard averaged 28 PPG on 68% TS vs Magic.

Lebron's stats vs the 59 win magic led by dwight howard and two strong defensive bigs were better than kawhi's across the entire playoff even including series vs the 11th ranked post season defense of the dubs