Replace Lebron with Prime Kawhi on the 2011-2014 Heat

[Sign5]

The thing with these plug and add scenarios is you can't just assume the mentality of these players would be the same.

Given that Wade was still in his prime in 2011, I know some may say they dont get past Chicago (due to Wade's struggles) but if you switch kawhi with Lebron then its possible that Wade's mentality of I'm 1b 'I got Lebron covering my back' to full on I HAVE to be the 1st option where he takes it upon himself to step up. At the same time maybe that ripples into him not having as good a Finals? Same with Bosh, would he go from 18/8 to 22/10 being more aggressive with Kawhi instead of Bron?

On a simple notion, healthy Wade/Kawhi/Bosh would be enough to win '11 but they don't beat OKC or Spurs imo.

[Drygon]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

[Franco]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

Why do people bring up stuff like “best defense post all-star break”? The Magic weren’t some hidden powerhouse.

[Drygon]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

Why do people bring up stuff like “best defense post all-star break”? The Magic weren’t some hidden powerhouse.

Magic improved during post All-Star break, which is noteworthy.

They even had the best record in the East (17-8), behind only the Bucks and equal with the Raptors.

[LKN]

There's of course a lot of stanning and idiocy going on here... but if you aren't saying at least one I think you are being dishonest. Kawhi (given that he's a much better shooter than Lebron) fits better with a Wade who hasn't declined yet better than Lebron in some ways... and I think they still have enough creation with 2011 Wade. After 2011 it does become more dicey as Wade's health did deteriorate.

[HeartBreakKid]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

None of those teams are as good as the teams LBJ faced in the finals, including the 2019 Warriors. That's like, the most important thing.

The Celtics from the early 10s could reasonably beat the Bucks and/or Sixers, but for some reason LBJ didn't play anyone until the finals but Leonard did? I mean how much are we putting into regular season here if we are talking about the bloody 19' Orlando Magic?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

None of those teams are as good as the teams LBJ faced in the finals, including the 2019 Warriors. That's like, the most important thing.

The Celtics from the early 10s could reasonably beat the Bucks and/or Sixers, but for some reason LBJ didn't play anyone until the finals but Leonard did? I mean how much are we putting into regular season here if we are talking about the bloody 19' Orlando Magic?

You are overrated the celtics in the 2010's, KG's career wasn't the same after his 09 injury. KG averaged 15 & 5 in the 2010 finals, he was not in his prime anymore during the 2010's. 2019 Giannis\Embiid are easily superior over 2010's KG.

Westbrook\Harden both have bad playoff reputations, so beating them wasn't at all that impressive either.

2013 - Duncan\Manu were past their primes.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has to play prime Giannis, prime Embiid, prime Curry and prime Draymond.

[No-more-rings]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

The Stacked Miami Heat won 47 games in 2010, wtf are you talking about?

[70sFan]

2011 Heat with 2016 Kawhi - title, Kawhi would be second option to Wade and I don't see Dwyane being locked down like James was in the finals, while Kawhi gives them great defense and very strong scoring option.
2012 Heat with 2017 Kawhi - title contenders but with Kawhi's injury they wouldn't win anything.
2013 Heat with 2018 Kawhi - Kawhi was injured, so no ring
2014 Heat with 2019 Kawhi - most likely losing to the Spurs, though beating Pacers would be very tough.

[70sFan]

It's not fair for Kawhi though, because he hasn't seen his 4 years peak yet. I hope he'll continue to improve and do some great things with the Clippers

[Franco]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

None of those teams are as good as the teams LBJ faced in the finals, including the 2019 Warriors. That's like, the most important thing.

The Celtics from the early 10s could reasonably beat the Bucks and/or Sixers, but for some reason LBJ didn't play anyone until the finals but Leonard did? I mean how much are we putting into regular season here if we are talking about the bloody 19' Orlando Magic?

You are overrated the celtics in the 2010's, KG's career wasn't the same after his 09 injury. KG averaged 15 & 5 in the 2010 finals, he was not in his prime anymore during the 2010's. 2019 Giannis\Embiid are easily superior over 2010's KG.

Westbrook\Harden both have bad playoff reputations, so beating them wasn't at all that impressive either.

2013 - Duncan\Manu were past their primes.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has to play prime Giannis, prime Embiid, prime Curry and prime Draymond.

Embiid averaged 17/8 on a higher paced series than Garnett.

[Drygon]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

The Stacked Miami Heat won 47 games in 2010, wtf are you talking about?

Where do you get the idea about Miami Heat being a stacked team during 2009-10 season?

Outside of MVP-level Wade, their best players were a sophomore Michael Beasley & washed up Jermaine O'Neal.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

None of those teams are as good as the teams LBJ faced in the finals, including the 2019 Warriors. That's like, the most important thing.

The Celtics from the early 10s could reasonably beat the Bucks and/or Sixers, but for some reason LBJ didn't play anyone until the finals but Leonard did? I mean how much are we putting into regular season here if we are talking about the bloody 19' Orlando Magic?

You are overrated the celtics in the 2010's, KG's career wasn't the same after his 09 injury. KG averaged 15 & 5 in the 2010 finals, he was not in his prime anymore during the 2010's. 2019 Giannis\Embiid are easily superior over 2010's KG.

Westbrook\Harden both have bad playoff reputations, so beating them wasn't at all that impressive either.

2013 - Duncan\Manu were past their primes.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has to play prime Giannis, prime Embiid, prime Curry and prime Draymond.

Embiid averaged 17/8 on a higher paced series than Garnett.

Embiid averaged 25/13 in the 1st round and was league leader in BPM going into the east finals. Embiid was still a very good player who just ran into a tough defense.

KG on the other hand was just an elite role player in the 2010's. He never showed he was himself anymore. Was never a great scorer to begin with but his game took a major hit after his 09 injury, lost a lot of his athleticism and cardio.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

The Stacked Miami Heat won 47 games in 2010, wtf are you talking about?

Added Bosh to the team and they are stacked. Bosh in 2011 was no worse than 2006 Shaq and prime Wade could of took them to the finals. It was LeBron who crapped on that entire year.

2012 Bosh is still a top 15 player, wade is still top 10. LeBron still had the best two stars on his team. Harden choked badly and LeBron had nothing to do with that. Wade is always better than Westbrook in the playoffs.

2013 Lebron faced an out of prime team, with the 3 best players on the team not being in their prime: Duncan, Manu, Kawhi. The only one in his prime was Tony Parker and he was always overrated.

I don't really see anything there that prime Kawhi couldn't do. 2011 in particular, kawhi would coast to that ring. Wade/Bosh by themself probably even win it in 2011.

2012 Harden and Westbrook are career playoff underachievers. Vs Kawhi and Bosh? They are done!

2013/2014 is when it starts getting silly because Kawhi is playing against himself.

[Gooner]

I would say three titles.

[No-more-rings]

That Heat squad minus Lebron is not stacked, that was my point. Bosh, Wade and scrubs is not that great. They’d probably win 50-52 if you replaced Lebron with an average player.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

That Heat squad minus Lebron is not stacked, that was my point. Bosh, Wade and scrubs is not that great. They’d probably win 50-52 if you replaced Lebron with an average player.

Prime Wade we are talking about here! He won it with washed up Shaq, why not prime Bosh? 2011 Wade/Bosh probably win it all!

2012 is when Wade starts declining but is still a great player.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The Heat were always vulnerable against teams with big front lines. They really struggled with the Pacers for example. This is because they were relying on guys like Joel Anthony and Udonis Haslem for big minutes at the five.

Kawhi does not fix that problem. He makes it worse because he's not as equipped to deal with fours and fives. Spoelstra wasn't just puffing up LeBron when he talked about him being a 1-5 defender. The Heat needed him at times to defend fives when their undersized centers were getting abused.

LeBron is more reliable for playing big minutes and missing few games. Leonard being less available places a greater load on the rest of the team. This leads to Wade breaking down faster. The Heat did not have the depth to sustain success with a key player missing games and playing low minutes.

The Heat did not have quality playmaking depth or a particularly effective system. Wade was solid as a playmaker, no one else besides James was. Kawhi did not fill that need as well as James.

The lack of system was not James' fault. He played within the system while in Miami. Miami had the same coach before James arrived and after he left and throughout that entire time no quality offensive system existed.

In short, Kawhi does not fix problems the Heat had, he makes them worse. Despite that, James played so poorly in the 2011 finals that Kawhi in his place could reasonably be expected to win that series.

However taking into account the demands of the season and the entire playoff run as well as potential chemistry issues with Wade wanting it to be his team and not defer in 2011, I don't think the Heat win a title that year. They likely lose before the finals.

--

As an aside, unless you just use 2016 and 2019 Kawhi multiple times, Kawhi automatically loses in 2012 and 2013 because he's out injured. The Heat were broken down in 2014 and that would have been even worse after four years of covering for all the games Kawhi missed. The only year they had a chance to win was 2011 with 2016 Kawhi.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That Heat squad minus Lebron is not stacked, that was my point. Bosh, Wade and scrubs is not that great. They’d probably win 50-52 if you replaced Lebron with an average player.

Prime Wade we are talking about here! He won it with washed up Shaq, why not prime Bosh? 2011 Wade/Bosh probably win it all!

2012 is when Wade starts declining but is still a great player.

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

[Franco]

You are overrated the celtics in the 2010's, KG's career wasn't the same after his 09 injury. KG averaged 15 & 5 in the 2010 finals, he was not in his prime anymore during the 2010's. 2019 Giannis\Embiid are easily superior over 2010's KG.

Westbrook\Harden both have bad playoff reputations, so beating them wasn't at all that impressive either.

2013 - Duncan\Manu were past their primes.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has to play prime Giannis, prime Embiid, prime Curry and prime Draymond.

Embiid averaged 17/8 on a higher paced series than Garnett.

Embiid averaged 25/13 in the 1st round and was league leader in BPM going into the east finals. Embiid was still a very good player who just ran into a tough defense.

KG on the other hand was just an elite role player in the 2010's. He never showed he was himself anymore. Was never a great scorer to begin with but his game took a major hit after his 09 injury, lost a lot of his athleticism and cardio.

Garnett averages 15/5 against Prime Pau Gasol and Bynum: He became a bum! Washed up!

Embiid averages 17/8 against Marc Gasol and Siakam: He just had a tough series!