Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time?

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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#21 » by euroleague » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 pm

70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:In 04 Playoffs, Duncan spent about 30 more minutes at C than he did at PF. All of his lineups at Center were hugely positive in +-. All of his lineups at PF were negative.

This is not true:
Parker/Ginobili/Turkoglu/Duncan/Nesterovic - +29.8 PER100 (Duncan was clearly at PF).
Hart/Ginobili/Turkoglu/Rose/Duncan - -22.5 PER100 (Duncan was clearly at C).
In 05 Playoffs, all of Duncan's lineups where was a PF were a negative +-. All of his lineups as a C were a positive.

This is again not true:
Parker/Ginobili/Barry/Duncan/Mohammed - +33.1 (Duncan at PF).
Parker/Barry/Bowen/Horry/Duncan - -12.9 (Duncan at C).

You also didn't include:

Duncan with Elson and Oberto in 2007.
Duncan with Robinson.
Duncan with Splitter.


I said explicitly that I was using line-ups from 04-06, the period without DRob before he was officially listed as C. Shaq also played with other centers occasionally - that doesn't make him a PF.

David Robinson, via the whole discussion, played the role of PF. Not Duncan.

Furthermore, I mostly analyze line-ups that have played enough time together that the data is useful. 10 minute sample sizes aren't very indicative. If you add up all the minutes, there's an obvious trend that Duncan wasn't good at PF, but was dominant at center.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#22 » by Owly » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:37 pm

euroleague wrote:
Owly wrote:
euroleague wrote:Just watching the highlights, he's against centers almost every play, following David Robinson's retirement.

Fist impressions from first couple of plays of some games
2004
Minny: Him vs KG is the matchup, both ends.
vs Lakers: (RS) matchup is Malone both ends (November and April)
ditto G1, G5
2005
Houston: matches up with Juwan Howard both ends.
2006
Suns: Matches up with Marion on D. Hodgepodge matchups on O but Thomas, Suns notional C is on Rasho.

Over time he comes to play more at the 5, but it's hardly "almost every play" post Robinson. Rasho, Nazr then Francisco and depending on how one allocates positions Fabricio (arguable who's the C in this last instances) eat up a lot of the minutes at the 5 for the mid-into lateish "noughties" Spurs (somewhat less so in playoffs).

euroleague wrote:I edited in some more details about his line-up success. Actually quite interesting, how almost every time Duncan played PF his team sucked. And every time he played Center, the Spurs dominated...

That's just a lie. Duncan playing PF majority of the time mid-decade, Spurs did not "suck" for those minutes.

Literally every lineup with Duncan at PF is worse than the lineups with him at C, bar maybe one or two. They did indeed 'suck'. It's data.

I've seen the match-ups, and know who he defended. He was being defended by Shaq in 04 much of the time, and did defend Shaq occasionally as well.


Assuming you have read the data correctly, being worse than with Duncan at PF doesn't mean they suck. Given Spurs SRSes always north of 6.5 in these multi-alternate center years (05-07) and the volume of time Duncan played at C it would be shocking if they "almost every time" sucked. Feel free to present the data otherwise.

Almost every time does not exclude playoffs. You were lying and are now defending a lie.

Just glanced at those highlights, though not that that's a good way to analyze basketball.
Play 1: Spurs offense, Malone on Duncan (Shaq does put a body on Duncan when Malone loses him on the pick but Duncan-Malone is the matchup.
Play 2: We're already in the 2nd quarter. So much for most of the time. We get 1 play so far. And a replay of it. 44 seconds in and 2nd quarter we've got 1 play with them matched up, either end. This in a video dedicated to the chunks they did matchup. And the case wasn't Duncan as never being C after Robinson. It was that many other players took substantial chunks of center minutes post Robinson and thus "almost every play" is wildly wrong.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#23 » by 70sFan » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:41 pm

euroleague wrote:
70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:In 04 Playoffs, Duncan spent about 30 more minutes at C than he did at PF. All of his lineups at Center were hugely positive in +-. All of his lineups at PF were negative.

This is not true:
Parker/Ginobili/Turkoglu/Duncan/Nesterovic - +29.8 PER100 (Duncan was clearly at PF).
Hart/Ginobili/Turkoglu/Rose/Duncan - -22.5 PER100 (Duncan was clearly at C).
In 05 Playoffs, all of Duncan's lineups where was a PF were a negative +-. All of his lineups as a C were a positive.

This is again not true:
Parker/Ginobili/Barry/Duncan/Mohammed - +33.1 (Duncan at PF).
Parker/Barry/Bowen/Horry/Duncan - -12.9 (Duncan at C).

You also didn't include:

Duncan with Elson and Oberto in 2007.
Duncan with Robinson.
Duncan with Splitter.


I said explicitly that I was using line-ups from 04-06, the period without DRob before he was officially listed as C. Shaq also played with other centers occasionally - that doesn't make him a PF.

David Robinson, via the whole discussion, played the role of PF. Not Duncan.

Furthermore, I mostly analyze line-ups that have played enough time together that the data is useful. 10 minute sample sizes aren't very indicative. If you add up all the minutes, there's an obvious trend that Duncan wasn't good at PF, but was dominant at center.

Robinson was definitely a center defensively in that lineup and on offense they were two versatile bigs who could play both roles but prefered to be centers.

Lineup data doesn't prove anything other than that Nesterovic wasn't a good player in 2004 and 2005. Most of lineups with him played badly.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:44 pm

I understand that you'd like to give Bird credit in this thread, but don't act like I haven't watched Spurs games from that period. I've been doing that for years, many times rewatching the same games.

By the way, Bird definitely didn't play at PF at his peak. McHale was clearly power forward on offense and even defensively he mostly protected the rim and fought with others bigs down low. Sure, there were times when McHale picked some high scoring small forwards who were too quick for Bird (like Dantley or Wilkins) but more times than not, he played like a bigman on defense. Again, I've seen a lot of 1980s Celtics games too.

Bird started his career as a PF on defense, but at his best he was a small forward in 1985-88 period.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#25 » by euroleague » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:54 pm

Owly wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Owly wrote:Fist impressions from first couple of plays of some games
2004
Minny: Him vs KG is the matchup, both ends.
vs Lakers: (RS) matchup is Malone both ends (November and April)
ditto G1, G5
2005
Houston: matches up with Juwan Howard both ends.
2006
Suns: Matches up with Marion on D. Hodgepodge matchups on O but Thomas, Suns notional C is on Rasho.

Over time he comes to play more at the 5, but it's hardly "almost every play" post Robinson. Rasho, Nazr then Francisco and depending on how one allocates positions Fabricio (arguable who's the C in this last instances) eat up a lot of the minutes at the 5 for the mid-into lateish "noughties" Spurs (somewhat less so in playoffs).


That's just a lie. Duncan playing PF majority of the time mid-decade, Spurs did not "suck" for those minutes.

Literally every lineup with Duncan at PF is worse than the lineups with him at C, bar maybe one or two. They did indeed 'suck'. It's data.

I've seen the match-ups, and know who he defended. He was being defended by Shaq in 04 much of the time, and did defend Shaq occasionally as well.


Assuming you have read the data correctly, being worse than with Duncan at PF doesn't mean they suck. Given Spurs SRSes always north of 6.5 in these multi-alternate center years (05-07) and the volume of time Duncan played at C it would be shocking if they "almost every time" sucked. Feel free to present the data otherwise.

Almost every time does not exclude playoffs. You were lying and are now defending a lie.

Just glanced at those highlights, though not that that's a good way to analyze basketball.
Play 1: Spurs offense, Malone on Duncan (Shaq does put a body on Duncan when Malone loses him on the pick but Duncan-Malone is the matchup.
Play 2: We're already in the 2nd quarter. So much for most of the time. We get 1 play so far. And a replay of it. 44 seconds in and 2nd quarter we've got 1 play with them matched up, either end. This in a video dedicated to the chunks they did matchup. And the case wasn't Duncan as never being C after Robinson. It was that many other players took substantial chunks of center minutes post Robinson and thus "almost every play" is wildly wrong.


I'm excluding the regular season. These numbers are the playoffs. Why not actually read my posts, before arguing with it and calling them all lies.

This is dedicated to defensive plays made by Duncan. Harder to do 1v1 on Shaq than helping out...

I analyzed the time spent with Duncan at PF vs Duncan at C, based on the line-ups in the post-season. in the regular season, teams can switch it up basically at will... it's more about conservation of energy - under the Popovich strategy - than it is maximizing your best line-ups.

thus, looking at the playoffs... I hate to repeat myself, but the data suggests clearly and convincingly that Duncan was mediocre at PF and dominant at C.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#26 » by euroleague » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:03 pm

70sFan wrote:I understand that you'd like to give Bird credit in this thread, but don't act like I haven't watched Spurs games from that period. I've been doing that for years, many times rewatching the same games.

By the way, Bird definitely didn't play at PF at his peak. McHale was clearly power forward on offense and even defensively he mostly protected the rim and fought with others bigs down low. Sure, there were times when McHale picked some high scoring small forwards who were too quick for Bird (like Dantley or Wilkins) but more times than not, he played like a bigman on defense. Again, I've seen a lot of 1980s Celtics games too.

Bird started his career as a PF on defense, but at his best he was a small forward in 1985-88 period.


I'm not saying McHale wasn't an offensive PF. Bird's play was more akin to a point forward than a power forward. However, I don't buy that Bird was better in 1988 than he was in 84. That's quite revisionist history.

Bird in 84 played PF and dominated. He's clearly a very flexible player, possibly the most potable of all time - but, if he had to be played at one position with every other player on his team being a traditional player for their role, he makes far more sense as a PF than an SF.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#27 » by Bel » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:03 pm

FWIW Red Auerbach considered Bird a wing when he drafted him instead of a big, which was considered the least important position in that era due to rules. "Woolf [Bird's agent] suggested a million a year, and Auerbach, apoplectic at that, countered with half a million, maybe, if you counted the perks. He said, "It's been proven. A cornerman can't dominate the game. A big man, occasionally even a guard. But one man playing a corner can't turn a franchise around."

I think a big part of the value of Bird is that you can put him in pretty much any lineup and he's going to make everyone way better. He barely needs to touch the ball, puts in a huge amount of offball effort, gets lots of boards, and is a great help defender. His teams always had magnificent ball movement, so everyone is getting involved and not feeling frozen out of the game watching some dude dribble for 20 seconds. Bird credited some of the 1980 Celtic turnaround due to their different passing culture, with everyone feeding off of the additional touches, so I get why Bob Cousy said he had the "best [passing ability] I've ever seen" in 1979.

To be clear, Larry Bird is in my top 5 of all time. I don't know what position he would be, but I don't really care that much because his impact dwarfs almost anyone before the game is ever played. The Celtics had sucked for 3 seasons in a row: they had 4 coaches in 3 years. The 1979 season was a disaster and it was clear the problem was only getting worse. The owner made a desperate attempt to turn it around by trading 3 first round picks for Bob McAdoo, late in the season. That didn't work and the team finished 2nd to last, so McAdoo was traded again for picks (that they would flip the next year for McHale and Parish). Other than Cedric Maxwell, who was young and getting into his prime, the rest of the team was exiting their primes in their 30's.

So you have Bird joining the second worst team in the league,filled with older vets, no stability, cancerous ownership that was in a war with the GM (Auerbach), making a trade that signaled tanking, and a recent culture of losing and blame. That sounds like a recipe for excuses that a ton of other top 10-15 players have gotten: 'he has no help out there,' 'he played for the worst ownership who was lucky to get him,' 'there was nothing he could do with that garbage cast' etc.

Larry Bird doesn't get those excuses naturally, since he went out and took that second worst team to first in the league as a rookie [context: the team lost McAdoo for picks, gained a new coach, and Tiny Archibald became fully healthy]. Bird was obviously a much worse player was a rookie than during his MVP streak, so it seems clear from the available anecdotes that it was changes to the team's culture, passing, and off-court intangibles where he made the most impact. It's not reflected in the stats, but when guys see the team leader playing with great intensity, always diving after loose balls, playing through injury never complaining, they play a lot better too.

Halberstam's summary from a bunch of interviews is clearly backed up the results of the 80's Celtics, in contrast with the miserable before and after results:

"Their confidence grew out of the presence of one truly great player, Larry Bird. The team was driven by the sheer force of his will. His greatness and toughness set him apart, and it was contagious. His teammates dared not disappoint him. The one thing they never wanted was for Bird to think poorly of them as basketball players, because in their eyes, he was the best they had ever seen, and therefore he had the right to judge what took place in their small, intense, closed-off universe..."

"Because Bird exuded mental toughness, a hatred of losing and a willingness to play at the highest possible level, his teammates gradually took on the same attitudes, as if absorbing his qualities by osmosis. "I saw that close up," Danny Ainge once noted. "None of us wanted to let him down. All of us wanted to be worthy of him. The great thing about Larry was his effect on his teammates. Everyone on that team rose with him, not just to his expectations of them, which were high enough, but to his expectations of himself, which were even higher." McHale had been known as a talented but not particularly tough played in college, and Parish was thought to be soft when he first entered the league, but they were not soft when they played alongside Bird. He would not permit it."


So while there was a large element of recency bias, one can understand just why Red Auerbach ate his words from 7 years earlier and called Bird the GOAT in 1986: "If I had to start a team, the one guy in all history I would take would be Larry Bird. He is the greatest ballplayer who ever played the game.'' Considering Auerbach's history with Bill Russell, that's quite something to say.

That's real impact on winning. Someone like Garnett isn't even in the same galaxy of getting results.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#28 » by 70sFan » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:21 pm

euroleague wrote:Bird in 84 played PF and dominated. He's clearly a very flexible player, possibly the most potable of all time - but, if he had to be played at one position with every other player on his team being a traditional player for their role, he makes far more sense as a PF than an SF.


Duncan in 2003 played PF and dominated. Duncan in 1999 played PF and dominated. Duncan was flexible too and he changed his role throughout whole career. To act that Duncan sucked at forward position is far bigger revisionist history than what I said about Bird (I acknowledge that Bird was already fantastic in 1984, I just included all of his prime years with prime McHale, which happened to be his best ones overall).
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#29 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:24 pm

I think if you ranked players by their "ideal" position you could and should consider Larry Bird a power forward. However, I don't think he would be the best power forward anyway - Tim Duncan (albeit you can argue he was a center using the same criteria) and Kevin Garnett were better players than Bird in my opinion. They also played longer on top of that.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#30 » by euroleague » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:37 pm

70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:Bird in 84 played PF and dominated. He's clearly a very flexible player, possibly the most potable of all time - but, if he had to be played at one position with every other player on his team being a traditional player for their role, he makes far more sense as a PF than an SF.


Duncan in 2003 played PF and dominated. Duncan in 1999 played PF and dominated. Duncan was flexible too and he changed his role throughout whole career. To act that Duncan sucked at forward position is far bigger revisionist history than what I said about Bird (I acknowledge that Bird was already fantastic in 1984, I just included all of his prime years with prime McHale, which happened to be his best ones overall).


You seem to miss my whole point.

David Robinson was playing Power Forward in terms of offense far more than Duncan. To quote myself from this thread:

On offense, David Robinson is more of a PF than Tim Duncan. His face-up game, mid-range jumper, and transition offense are almost textbook PF. Duncan played back to the basket in the post, and protected the rim.


Duncan, according to the line-ups, didn't play at a "GOAT PF" level when playing PF with a Center who didn't have the skillset of a PF and play as one of the most NON-"traditional post-up in the paint" centers ever.

Duncan in 02 was noticeably better without DRob on the floor. Even in 03 (I'm focusing on playoffs, which is what the Spurs typically did with Pop), Duncan's best 6 lineups had only two where he was a PF. The 4 lineups with negative +- had 2 of Duncan at PF with DRob, one of the most flexible Centers ever, at C.

A notable comparison would be Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. Ralph Sampson was taller, but played a game very similar to David Robinson - and he was listed at PF. Tim Duncan's game is closer to Hakeem than Ralph Sampson - but he's listed as a PF, despite playing mostly as a Center.

Thus, I speculated that Duncan has been misconstrued as a PF, and his role next to more traditional Centers would indicate that the fit isn't as good as it was with DRob - since DRob was actually the PF offensively, and they both played Center defensively. The data supports that, quite convincingly.

I believe in the eye test. That's how I started this theory. You're free to disagree - but Duncan was far better at C than he was at PF, according to my eye test. That's my main point in this thread.

I'm not really a huge fan of Bird. I'm a big fan of Karl Malone, who is (in my opinion) the prototype of a PF. He seems to be bashed a lot for not making his own shot (not the job of a PF), not being an amazing rim-protector (not the job of a PF), and for his off-the-court history (topic for another thread). Dirk, in my opinion, is also a near proto-type of an ideal PF.

You can have a different prototype. If your ideal Center isn't traditional, the point is moot. But, from my eye test (and there's data to support it), Duncan doesn't play best at PF in a traditional line-up.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#31 » by euroleague » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:44 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I think if you ranked players by their "ideal" position you could and should consider Larry Bird a power forward. However, I don't think he would be the best power forward anyway - Tim Duncan (albeit you can argue he was a center using the same criteria) and Kevin Garnett were better players than Bird in my opinion. They also played longer on top of that.

In fact, I have Karl Malone.

But, by common consensus, it's Duncan. And, common consensus on the board rankings has Bird over KG in peak and all-time rankings on this board.

That should make Bird the consensus greatest PF of all time. I have no issue with that. But, from the eye test it seems Duncan is pretty clearly a Center, despite being listed at PF, and that David Robinson is playing the offensive role of PF (transition offense, jump shooting from mid-range, attacking the basket facing the hoop). Duncan liked to put his back to the basket and go to work in the post, although he did have something of a jump-shot.

It's annoying to see a center listed as the greatest PF of all time. I think KG also has a lot of strengths better suited to Center, but he would not be a traditional Center like Duncan.

Anyways, I have a meeting to go to. have to end this discussion from my end.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#32 » by 70sFan » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:45 pm

euroleague wrote:
70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:Bird in 84 played PF and dominated. He's clearly a very flexible player, possibly the most potable of all time - but, if he had to be played at one position with every other player on his team being a traditional player for their role, he makes far more sense as a PF than an SF.


Duncan in 2003 played PF and dominated. Duncan in 1999 played PF and dominated. Duncan was flexible too and he changed his role throughout whole career. To act that Duncan sucked at forward position is far bigger revisionist history than what I said about Bird (I acknowledge that Bird was already fantastic in 1984, I just included all of his prime years with prime McHale, which happened to be his best ones overall).


You seem to miss my whole point.

David Robinson was playing Power Forward in terms of offense far more than Duncan. To quote myself from this thread:

On offense, David Robinson is more of a PF than Tim Duncan. His face-up game, mid-range jumper, and transition offense are almost textbook PF. Duncan played back to the basket in the post, and protected the rim.


Duncan, according to the line-ups, didn't play at a "GOAT PF" level when playing PF with a Center who didn't have the skillset of a PF and play as one of the most NON-"traditional post-up in the paint" centers ever.

Duncan in 02 was noticeably better without DRob on the floor. Even in 03 (I'm focusing on playoffs, which is what the Spurs typically did with Pop), Duncan's best 6 lineups had only two where he was a PF. The 4 lineups with negative +- had 2 of Duncan at PF with DRob, one of the most flexible Centers ever, at C.

A notable comparison would be Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. Ralph Sampson was taller, but played a game very similar to David Robinson - and he was listed at PF. Tim Duncan's game is closer to Hakeem than Ralph Sampson - but he's listed as a PF, despite playing mostly as a Center.

Thus, I speculated that Duncan has been misconstrued as a PF, and his role next to more traditional Centers would indicate that the fit isn't as good as it was with DRob - since DRob was actually the PF offensively, and they both played Center defensively. The data supports that, quite convincingly.

I believe in the eye test. That's how I started this theory. You're free to disagree - but Duncan was far better at C than he was at PF, according to my eye test. That's my main point in this thread.

I'm not really a huge fan of Bird. I'm a big fan of Karl Malone, who is (in my opinion) the prototype of a PF. He seems to be bashed a lot for not making his own shot (not the job of a PF), not being an amazing rim-protector (not the job of a PF), and for his off-the-court history (topic for another thread). Dirk, in my opinion, is also a near proto-type of an ideal PF.

You can have a different prototype. If your ideal Center isn't traditional, the point is moot. But, from my eye test (and there's data to support it), Duncan doesn't play best at PF in a traditional line-up.


I already replied to your comment about Robinson game - Admiral was a center on offense. He was very versatile center of course (as was Duncan) but he wasn't more "foward-ish" than Duncan. Timmy played a lot from perimeter and face up himself back then, especially when he was younger.

Sampson wasn't similar to Robinson at all from stylistic point, so I disagree with your analogy. Sampson was also clearly a forward on defense with Hakeem on the lineup, which was not the case with Robinson.

I actually agree with you that Duncan was more of a center and that he was probably better center than power forward. There is a huge difference in what you said in this post and what you did before though, because you said that Duncan sucked at 4. This is something that just can't be defended in any way.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#33 » by euroleague » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:35 am

70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Duncan in 2003 played PF and dominated. Duncan in 1999 played PF and dominated. Duncan was flexible too and he changed his role throughout whole career. To act that Duncan sucked at forward position is far bigger revisionist history than what I said about Bird (I acknowledge that Bird was already fantastic in 1984, I just included all of his prime years with prime McHale, which happened to be his best ones overall).


You seem to miss my whole point.

David Robinson was playing Power Forward in terms of offense far more than Duncan. To quote myself from this thread:

On offense, David Robinson is more of a PF than Tim Duncan. His face-up game, mid-range jumper, and transition offense are almost textbook PF. Duncan played back to the basket in the post, and protected the rim.


Duncan, according to the line-ups, didn't play at a "GOAT PF" level when playing PF with a Center who didn't have the skillset of a PF and play as one of the most NON-"traditional post-up in the paint" centers ever.

Duncan in 02 was noticeably better without DRob on the floor. Even in 03 (I'm focusing on playoffs, which is what the Spurs typically did with Pop), Duncan's best 6 lineups had only two where he was a PF. The 4 lineups with negative +- had 2 of Duncan at PF with DRob, one of the most flexible Centers ever, at C.

A notable comparison would be Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. Ralph Sampson was taller, but played a game very similar to David Robinson - and he was listed at PF. Tim Duncan's game is closer to Hakeem than Ralph Sampson - but he's listed as a PF, despite playing mostly as a Center.

Thus, I speculated that Duncan has been misconstrued as a PF, and his role next to more traditional Centers would indicate that the fit isn't as good as it was with DRob - since DRob was actually the PF offensively, and they both played Center defensively. The data supports that, quite convincingly.

I believe in the eye test. That's how I started this theory. You're free to disagree - but Duncan was far better at C than he was at PF, according to my eye test. That's my main point in this thread.

I'm not really a huge fan of Bird. I'm a big fan of Karl Malone, who is (in my opinion) the prototype of a PF. He seems to be bashed a lot for not making his own shot (not the job of a PF), not being an amazing rim-protector (not the job of a PF), and for his off-the-court history (topic for another thread). Dirk, in my opinion, is also a near proto-type of an ideal PF.

You can have a different prototype. If your ideal Center isn't traditional, the point is moot. But, from my eye test (and there's data to support it), Duncan doesn't play best at PF in a traditional line-up.


I already replied to your comment about Robinson game - Admiral was a center on offense. He was very versatile center of course (as was Duncan) but he wasn't more "foward-ish" than Duncan. Timmy played a lot from perimeter and face up himself back then, especially when he was younger.

Sampson wasn't similar to Robinson at all from stylistic point, so I disagree with your analogy. Sampson was also clearly a forward on defense with Hakeem on the lineup, which was not the case with Robinson.

I actually agree with you that Duncan was more of a center and that he was probably better center than power forward. There is a huge difference in what you said in this post and what you did before though, because you said that Duncan sucked at 4. This is something that just can't be defended in any way.


I just meant compared to how dominant he is at a C. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, MJ, Dirk, Duncan... players like that can basically dominate the game in most roles. But, they clearly have a role they are better at, in my opinion. MJ is undersized to play PF, Dirk is oversized to play SF and doesn't defend that well on the perimeter. Duncan and Kareem play a bit underneath the hoop in the Center to be considered a typical PF.

But, MJ at PF or Dirk at SF would still do very well. They just wouldn't be the GOAT in that position. They'd be a SG/PF playing out of position, and likely losing a fair amount of their normal impact (although not as much as centers do, as Center has only one position leaving less flexibility than forwards or guards).
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#34 » by tondi123 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:54 am

Always thought of Bird as a SF when he was playing but he would clearly be a PF in today's game. If he was on the court with Parish and McHale there really wasn't any other way to look at it.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#35 » by DNice68 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:17 am

tondi123 wrote:Always thought of Bird as a SF when he was playing but he would clearly be a PF in today's game. If he was on the court with Parish and McHale there really wasn't any other way to look at it.

Yeah Bird would be a power forward, so would people like James Worthy and Terry Cummings!
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#36 » by Odinn21 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:14 am

So the OP wants to have it both ways. He's arguing for Duncan who's spent his majortiy of prime at PF position being C to eliminate the competition. Then goes onto saying Bird is the goat PF even though Bird played SF nearly all of his prime. And nothing else.
If you see Bird ahead of Duncan, make a case for him. Not tiptoe around to have the way you want because you won't get it, the way you're going at it is not proper.

Also;
PF is the most interchangeable position among the 5 positions. Depends on a team's roster and how they conduct themselves. There are many examples of PFs being secondary bigs to Cs. There are also many examples of PFs being secondary, bigger forwards fo PFs. PF position is the most trend related position. Also, this is one of the reasons why top 5 PF ever considered more revolutionary than the other positions' top 5s. There's no standard that strong and the position relies on trends.
Drop 2012-13 LBJ into the early '00s with TD, KG, Dirk, Webber, and some more in the PF position, LBJ is no longer playing PF. Drop 1984-88 Bird into current league, he'd be utilized at PF.
Duncan had the skillset of an atg C, even his younger days. But he was utilized at PF in majority of his prime.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#37 » by ChiLongQua » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:21 am

Because Bird played alongside Mchale.
You can make a case that Bird is better than Duncan at his peak tho.
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Bird and Cornbread 

Post#38 » by Najee12 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:02 am

Boston's early 1980s starting forward tandem of Larry Bird and Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell was more like two small forwards with combination skills. Bird typically played on the perimeter more while Maxwell tended to play more on the interior and baseline. If Bird started the transition game, he would bring up the ball or be the outlet passer while Maxwell would be the finisher.

While Maxwell was listed as the small forward, he tended to play more of the role of power forward on offense. Cornbread's game largely was driving the lane for deceptive moves to the basket and post-ups. Cornbread typically led the Celtics in free throw attempts per game because he played on the interior and was crafty to get bigger players in foul trouble.

Listing Bird as power forward was more of a case of the listing on the matchup card (Bird was taller than Maxwell) than a reflection of his style of play. Bird was the secondary ball-handler and passer to Tiny Archibald and definitely was an open-floor player. Bird was the point forward, in the mode of Rick Barry and John Havlicek.

In all the years I watched Bird play throughout his career, I never thought of him as a power forward but a small forward (IMO, he is tied with LeBron James as the best small forward in NBA history). Like James, Bird was a small forward who could handle the ball and rebound exceptionally well. Bird didn't play the low-post game extensively as Maxwell did. On offense, Cornbread was the power forward and defensive matchups depended on the opposing team's wing players.
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Re: Why is Larry Bird not the best PF of all time? 

Post#39 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:52 am

Owly wrote:
euroleague wrote:
colts19 wrote:Legend did play a lot of PF during the 2nd half of his career. Magic, MJ, LBJ, Bird and Wilt would be a scary-ass team.

He actually played PF in the first half, McHale became the starting PF when Bird shifted to SF to bring him into the lineup. He won MVP/FMVP as PF in 84.

CBS graphics for the opening game considered Rambis - Maxwell the PF matchup (Bird, Worthy the other forwards), fwiw. It would also depend on which end you think defines positions (and what you make of Magic in this instance).

Rambis guards Maxwell on the first play. Worthy is DJ, Cooper on Bird. And at the other end Bird is on Cooper (the smallest Laker).

G6 CBS doesn't state positions but puts Worthy opposite Bird, he guards Rambis, but is guarded by Cooper.

Generally, defensively Bird seems at a glance to be more on Rambis (not necessarily tight- whether he's there to be on the PF or just guarding the weaker forward to allow him to focus on roaming, as some have hypothesized [Simmons?] maybe coud be argued), so he's more 4 defensively (as seems common in playoffs that year)
.
It would be fair to say the Maxwell Bird forward positions were somewhat fluid in general, in that series specifically ... it depends heavily how you define positions (on paper, court position, matchup on offense, matchup on defense - particularly pertinent in this case as Celtics crossmatching seems not to have been uncommon).

Earlier in the season vs Seattle Bird takes the bigger Chambers, Maxwell the more interior based, typically better rebounding Reggie King (in that instance matchup stayed the same both ends) ... not sure that clears anything up.

Might be simpler to just call Bird a forward.

Don't imagine people would complain if you put Bird there if it's clear what you mean (many here wouldn't see him over Duncan). Guys like that just show it's all a bit arbitrary and made up anyhow.


Maybe you saw Bird Guard Cooper but Bird normally guarded Rambis. I watched Celtics before Bird and during his career. I left Boston in 1991. Cooper hit 3s in 1987 but in 1984 Cooper wasn't very dangerous from the outside so you could occasionally get away with Bird on Cooper but I don't remember Bird on Cooper.

Bird defended power forwards well (except Barkley but Barkley beat Bird with small forward skills) In man to man defense Bird's best position was clearly power forward. Bird spent probably 85% sent of his career guarding power forwards. Bird was a great free safety on defense because Bird read plays so well so if you could stick Bird on a weak offensive player you not only get to rest Bird a bit but you also get to have Bird playing to his strength by letting him play free safety. He jumped passing lanes and doubled whoever needed to be doubled.

When a team plays a 3 guard line up there isn't a compulsion to call one of the guards a forward just because he is guarding a forward.

No team has ever had 3 better power forwards than Bird, McHale and Maxwell but one of them has to guard small forwards. Maxwell was clearly the power forward before Bird arrived. Maxwell was a bit light and quick for a power forward so Maxwell was able to guard small forwards. McHale did not have the foot speed to guard small forwards but McHale's footwork was great and he had some of the longest arms in NBA history so McHale developed the ability to guard small forwards. McHale could seriously frustrate small forwards. Eventually good small forwards would figure out how to take advantage of McHale's poor foot speed.

Cooper always defended Bird. Opposing teams had to stop Bird from wandering around with a live dribble like a giant Steve Nash. Bird did not have the foot speed to burn a defender that overplayed him. A quick guy like Cooper could force Bird to give up his dribble. If the defender did not force Bird to give up his dribble Bird would destroy the defense by passing or by finding a seem to shoot through.

In today's game with the help defense being gone Bird would just overpower Cooper. Back the then with McHale and Maxwell being great inside scorers but unwilling to shoot outside shots and with Parish's range not extending past short midrange, and with DJ being a unreliable shooter, and Buckner being a non shooter and Carr being only a mediocre shooter, and Archibald not being good beyond mid range and Henderson just being an average shooter, the denying team could always have help defender around the paint if Bird decided to overpower the smaller quicker defenders that guarded him. Bird had a great set of inside scoring moves and Bird was physical.

Bird had a power forwards offensive game but Bird could also do whatever a guard could do other than being quick. Bird had an incentive to play outside so that Parish, McHale and Maxwell could have some space inside.

There were some notable times when Bird did not guard power forwards. As a rookie they tried Bird on small forwards. Dr J burned Bird and the Celtics realized that Maxwell would need to change his defensive position to defensive small forward but on offense Maxwell was still a power forward. Vs the Hawks Bird guarded center Tree Rollins because Tree had no offense and Kevin Willis was talented and Willis was to big for almost all power forwards. Most importantly in the finals vs the Rockets Bird guarded small forward Rodney McCray. Rodney McCray played center in college. McCray did not have a particularly good drive or outside shot so he was not able too exploit Bird's foot speed. Bird guarding McCray let McHale use McHale's long arms to shut down Ralph Sampson's ability to shoot over power forwards.

Bird is more of a power forward than Tim Duncan is. Tim Duncan is Bird's only competition for greatest power forward. I don't think Barkley, Karl Malone, Dirk, and KG have a winning an argument vs Bird. (I am not a longevity guy so I am not giving Duncan, KG, Dirk and Malone an edge based on longevity) Duncan was a power forward when Robinson played center. Some say Duncan was a power forward because Shaq owned the 1st team center spot. I don't really believe that. I think Pop really believed that starting a center next to Duncan would preserve Duncan for the 4th quarter. After Robinson left Duncan was always the Center in crunch time. Duncan's greatest value was as a defensive center. Duncan reminds me of Robert Parish. Duncan was like a better Robert Parish and Parish was a center. So Duncan was a little quicker and smarter and more skilled than Parrish but he still basically Parish size and sort of Parish style.

Dirk and Jokic don't get called small forwards.

My self appointed job at realgm is to contuously call Bird a power forward because he was a power forward but most people think he was a small forward.
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Re: Bird and Cornbread 

Post#40 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:23 am

Najee12 wrote:Boston's early 1980s starting forward tandem of Larry Bird and Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell was more like two small forwards with combination skills. Bird typically played on the perimeter more while Maxwell tended to play more on the interior and baseline. If Bird started the transition game, he would bring up the ball or be the outlet passer while Maxwell would be the finisher.

While Maxwell was listed as the small forward, he tended to play more of the role of power forward on offense. Cornbread's game largely was driving the lane for deceptive moves to the basket and post-ups. Cornbread typically led the Celtics in free throw attempts per game because he played on the interior and was crafty to get bigger players in foul trouble.

Listing Bird as power forward was more of a case of the listing on the matchup card (Bird was taller than Maxwell) than a reflection of his style of play. Bird was the secondary ball-handler and passer to Tiny Archibald and definitely was an open-floor player. Bird was the point forward, in the mode of Rick Barry and John Havlicek.

In all the years I watched Bird play throughout his career, I never thought of him as a power forward but a small forward (IMO, he is tied with LeBron James as the best small forward in NBA history). Like James, Bird was a small forward who could handle the ball and rebound exceptionally well. Bird didn't play the low-post game extensively as Maxwell did. On offense, Cornbread was the power forward and defensive matchups depended on the opposing team's wing players.


I was a Bruins fan. I could have watched the Cowens Celtics but I just watched hockey instead. Cedric Maxwell was my first favorite basketball player and the reason I started watching basketball. I loved Maxwell's strange contortionist inside scoring moves. Maxwell led the NBA in FG percentage twice while scoring at a somewhat high volume. There was no question about whether Maxwell was a power forward prior to Bird's arrival. Maxwell was the power forward on offense and defense.

The media guide listed Bird as a small forward before Bird played a NBA game. Bird had been a power forward in college and Bird was a center when the center rested. But since everybody knew Maxwell was the power forward and the best returning player on Bird's rookie team therefore Bird was listed as a small forward and that listing stuck.

Bird was really a power forward for his hole career. But the Celtics had 3 great power forwards so somebody was going to be called a small forward. Somebody had to defend small forwards. Somebody would be guarded by small forwards. It made sense to guard Bird with a small forward. There would be defensive centers and power forwards to help the small forwards if Bird took them into the paint.

So in my mind Bird and Maxwell were both power forwards but Maxwell was better than Bird at defensive small forward and Bird was better than Maxwell at offensive small forward.

Decades later Basketball reference decided to call Maxwell a small forward but I don't think Maxwell was called a small forward while he played.

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