1990 Michael Jordan vs 2009 Lebron James

[Homer38]

The team of LeBron have almost always been very good in the close game,so I don't care the random stats like under 10 seconds,5 seconds,24 seconds or 5 minutes.

[Homer38]

Jordan was ready to win in 90. Unfortunately Scottie and Horace weren't. Lebron wasn't ready to win in 09. We know that because of what happened in 2010 and 2011.

2009 have nothing to do with 2010 and 2011...With 2009 LeBron in their team,every team become a true title contender immediately.

Not if he's your best player. I'd believe 09 Lebron could take a lot of teams to the Finals but I'd pick against him winning the title. He hadn't all-the-way figured out yet how to beat good teams that walled off the paint and protect the rim. He figured out the Pistons but had real problems with Celts and Mavs (not to mention Bulls and Pacers).

What happened in 2010 and 2011 is important because it hints at what likely would have transpired had he made Finals vs. 2009 Lakers. Unlike Bron, Kobe was ready to win. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lakers size would've presented the exact same interior size problem he faced vs. Celts and Mavs. And let's face it, Kobe was more mentally tough at that stage.

In 90 it was clear MJ had the answers, just not the horses. Scottie and Horace came back the next year and refused to get punked, and so they won. The situations are different.

Did you see his series against the magic?

LeBron never had problem against the pacers btw.

[bledredwine]

Oh, and btw, agreed that Lebron was clutch against the Magic. I was rooting for him that series and he was awesome. I still maintain that he wasn't any better than Dwight though, in terms of impact.

[VanWest82]

Did you see his series against the magic?

LeBron never had problem against the pacers btw.

Kobe, Metta, Pau, and Bynum isn't the same thing as Dwight, Hedo, Mickael Pietrus, and Rashard Lewis.

Pre 2013 you could really bother Lebron with lots of size in the middle because he hadn't improved his outside shooting and post game enough to overcome it. And he did struggle somewhat with PG, Lance, and Roy Hibbert for this very reason. He still gets bothered by size though he's long since improved those parts of his game. He's a great, great player now.

[Dupp]

I just consider Jordan a much better player, especially 88-93 Jordan. 09 Lebron was struggling to duel Kobe, who was considered the best player at the time anyway. And Melo was the most clutch back then, leading clutch categories, just to refresh everyone’s memory.

90’ Jordan, no question. That’s the finest of wines.

Impressive you were able to put so many untrue statements in a short paragraph but the underlined one is particularly good. Can you provide any proof to this statement? What clutch categories was he leading?

Have a look! https://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/4vi1E
source - https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/whos-more-clutch-kobe-melo-kd-or-lebron

Have you forgotten Lebron's clutch struggles or are you just pretending? Any time you quote me, you leave a gut-reaction remark with no proof otherwise of what I've said. Back in 2009, Lebron was the butt of all clutch jokes, if you haven't remembered. His 19 out of 95 clutch shots for his career (2 minutes left, within 5 points) is the worst that I've come across so far.

Fun fact from just 2016 - Late LeBron miss in Toronto left him 5-for-47 over last 10 seasons on game-tying or go-ahead FGs in last five seconds of fourth quarter & OT. For comparison, Kobe had been 13-47, making him 3 times as clutch as the king over that decade stretch.

Not only was Melo more clutch, he was much more clutch than anyone at the time. I can't seem to find 4th quarter stats, but Melo's stats were more impressive than anyone's in that regard as well. Feel free to look them up. I assume you'll cherry-pick after noticing how effective Melo was.



^^^ and this is from 2013, cumulative. When it comes to large sample sizes that actually reflect how effective a player is in the clutch, Lebron doesn't fair to well. He's awesome at getting to the rim, but his poor midrange consistency and lack of good free throw shooting doesn't leave him with the best clutch toolset, I'm' sorry to say.

This all said, I want to reiterate that I do consider Lebron a great 4th quarter player. But I do not consider him clutch in pressure situations.

Lebron didnt struggle in the clutch in 2009. Cavs were actually one of the best teams in late game situations and lebrons 4th quarter scoring and efficiency was great. The jokes started after 2011 where he sucked in the clutch all season and then had his meltdown in the finals.

But that is not relevant to what i asked you. I asked you to post melos cutch stats he leads in since you said he was the most clutch player. The first link was a lebron stat finder that i dunno what parameters you put in. Still irrelevant to the question about melo. The other link was solely a game winner stat from 2013. Besides being 4 years after the point of discussion i take it you believe game winners are the only measure of clutch?


Anyway your whole post is about lebron, as usual. I asked about melo.

[Homer38]

Did you see his series against the magic?

LeBron never had problem against the pacers btw.

Kobe, Metta, Pau, and Bynum isn't the same thing as Dwight, Hedo, Mickael Pietrus, and Rashard Lewis.

Pre 2013 you could really bother Lebron with lots of size in the middle because he hadn't improved his outside shooting and post game enough to overcome it. And he did struggle somewhat with PG, Lance, and Roy Hibbert for this very reason. He still gets bothered by size though he's long since improved those parts of his game. He's a great, great player now.

The Lakers had a better team that the cavs in 2009 and it was not because of Kobe vs LeBron but because the Lakers had more size and they were much better to contain Dwight

LeBron never struggle in a serie against the pacers,never.

[KTM_2813]

Jordan was ready to win in 90. Unfortunately Scottie and Horace weren't. Lebron wasn't ready to win in 09. We know that because of what happened in 2010 and 2011.

2009 have nothing to do with 2010 and 2011...With 2009 LeBron in their team,every team become a true title contender immediately.

Not if he's your best player. I'd believe 09 Lebron could take a lot of teams to the Finals but I'd pick against him winning the title. He hadn't all-the-way figured out yet how to beat good teams that walled off the paint and protected the rim. He figured out the Pistons but had real problems with Celts and Mavs (not to mention Bulls and Pacers).

What happened in 2010 and 2011 is important because it hints at what likely would have transpired had he made Finals vs. 2009 Lakers. Unlike Bron, Kobe was ready to win. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lakers size would've presented the exact same issues he faced vs. Celts and Mavs. And let's face it, Kobe was more mentally tough at that stage of their careers. Kobe had to step up and bail out Team USA the previous summer. Don't think that wouldn't have factored into things.

In 90 it was clear MJ had the answers just not the horses. Scottie and Horace came back the next year and refused to get punked, and so they won. The situations are different.

I dunno. Seems more likely to me that the Cavaliers lost in 2009 because their team outside of LeBron wasn't quite good enough relative to the competition.

[Hal14]

Did you see his series against the magic?

LeBron never had problem against the pacers btw.

Kobe, Metta, Pau, and Bynum isn't the same thing as Dwight, Hedo, Mickael Pietrus, and Rashard Lewis.

Pre 2013 you could really bother Lebron with lots of size in the middle because he hadn't improved his outside shooting and post game enough to overcome it. And he did struggle somewhat with PG, Lance, and Roy Hibbert for this very reason. He still gets bothered by size though he's long since improved those parts of his game. He's a great, great player now.

The Lakers had a better team that the cavs in 2009 and it was not because of Kobe vs LeBron but because the Lakers had more size and they were much better to contain Dwight

LeBron never struggle in a serie against the pacers,never.

Ok, thanks Mrs. James . We'll let you know when your son is mentioned in another thread so you can chime in

[TheGOATRises007]

I think MJ might have been the better player in a vacuum.

But penalizing 2009 Lebron for what transpired in 2010 and 2011 isn't really fair nor does it make much sense. The situations aren't the same.

[RCM88x]

I've always gone back and forth over this, especially with regards to my rating of '90 Jordan.

Probably right now I'd take LeBron here. My hierarchy of their peaks probably goes like this for me.

'91 Jordan
'13 LeBron
'92 Jordan
'09 LeBron
'90 Jordan
'89 Jordan
Etc..

[VanWest82]

2009 have nothing to do with 2010 and 2011...With 2009 LeBron in their team,every team become a true title contender immediately.

Not if he's your best player. I'd believe 09 Lebron could take a lot of teams to the Finals but I'd pick against him winning the title. He hadn't all-the-way figured out yet how to beat good teams that walled off the paint and protected the rim. He figured out the Pistons but had real problems with Celts and Mavs (not to mention Bulls and Pacers).

What happened in 2010 and 2011 is important because it hints at what likely would have transpired had he made Finals vs. 2009 Lakers. Unlike Bron, Kobe was ready to win. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lakers size would've presented the exact same issues he faced vs. Celts and Mavs. And let's face it, Kobe was more mentally tough at that stage of their careers. Kobe had to step up and bail out Team USA the previous summer. Don't think that wouldn't have factored into things.

In 90 it was clear MJ had the answers just not the horses. Scottie and Horace came back the next year and refused to get punked, and so they won. The situations are different.

I dunno. Seems more likely to me that the Cavaliers lost in 2009 because their team outside of LeBron wasn't quite good enough relative to the competition.

I'm not arguing against that. They got smoked by Orlando -- of course they weren't good enough. Even if Lebron did have the help that year I don't think he would've won, unless he wasn't the best player / leader of the team or Cavs were absolutely stacked.

[RCM88x]

Not if he's your best player. I'd believe 09 Lebron could take a lot of teams to the Finals but I'd pick against him winning the title. He hadn't all-the-way figured out yet how to beat good teams that walled off the paint and protected the rim. He figured out the Pistons but had real problems with Celts and Mavs (not to mention Bulls and Pacers).

What happened in 2010 and 2011 is important because it hints at what likely would have transpired had he made Finals vs. 2009 Lakers. Unlike Bron, Kobe was ready to win. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lakers size would've presented the exact same issues he faced vs. Celts and Mavs. And let's face it, Kobe was more mentally tough at that stage of their careers. Kobe had to step up and bail out Team USA the previous summer. Don't think that wouldn't have factored into things.

In 90 it was clear MJ had the answers just not the horses. Scottie and Horace came back the next year and refused to get punked, and so they won. The situations are different.

I dunno. Seems more likely to me that the Cavaliers lost in 2009 because their team outside of LeBron wasn't quite good enough relative to the competition.

I'm not arguing against that. They got smoked by Orlando -- of course they weren't good enough. Even if Lebron did have the help that year I don't think he would've won, unless he wasn't the best player / leader of the team or Cavs were absolutely stacked.

3 of the first 4 games were decided by 1 possession, how did they get smoked? Easily could have been up 3-1 instead of down 3-1 lol.

[LA Bird]

And Melo was the most clutch back then, leading clutch categories, just to refresh everyone’s memory.

Back in 2009, Lebron was the butt of all clutch jokes, if you haven't remembered.

Not only was Melo more clutch, he was much more clutch than anyone at the time. I can't seem to find 4th quarter stats, but Melo's stats were more impressive than anyone's in that regard as well. Feel free to look them up. I assume you'll cherry-pick after noticing how effective Melo was.

Yeah, let's look up the stats and refresh everyone's memory on the most clutch player in 2009:

• 1st in 4th quarter points per game in regular season (Source)
• 1st in 4th quarter points per game in the postseason (Source)
• 41.9 points per 36 on 69.3% TS in the clutch in regular season (Source)
• 46.9 points per 36 on 66.2% TS in the clutch in the postseason (Source)

A very clutch season indeed from Melo LeBron "the butt of all clutch jokes" James.

[Dupp]

I think MJ might have been the better player in a vacuum.

This definitely makes sense to me and MJ can be a better player while lebron may of had a better season.


It’s a hard thing to differentiate better player vs better season.At least statistically. Lots of people believe lebrons peak to be in 09. While it may be his best season I think he was at least a better player basically every season 2012 onwards.

[Shanghai Kid]

I think this whole premise works on the idea that there is a seperation between 91 MJ and 90 MJ.

You want the highest peaks of all time to be 91 MJ and 09 Lebron. So what do you do with 90 MJ?

I would suggest that it's ok to stop being illogical and be real. If you LOVE 91 MJ....its ok to love 90 MJ.

If Pippen doesn't have a migraine, it's possible MJ actually might win his first title in 90.

MJ in 90 is the peak of all basketball players. Let that flow in....90 MJ is amazinggg.

[benson13]

If you look at raw numbers probably Lebron considering rule changes, but 1990 MJ wouldn't had lost to Dwight Howard and definitely not with HCA especially considering there backcourt of Rafer and Courtney Lee. Even Kobe in 2009 dominated Dwight in the finals.

Kobe shot 43% in the 2009 Finals. Who did he dominate? The Magic were neck and neck with the Cavaliers that season until Jameer Nelson got injured.

This might be the worst logic I've seen since joining RealGM.

[NO-KG-AI]

I think MJ might have been the better player in a vacuum.

This definitely makes sense to me and MJ can be a better player while lebron may of had a better season.


It’s a hard thing to differentiate better player vs better season.At least statistically. Lots of people believe lebrons peak to be in 09. While it may be his best season I think he was at least a better player basically every season 2012 onwards.

Agreed, I think most people agree that neither the best MJ or the best LeBron were the seasons they had their best regular season’s statistically.

[O_6]

To me it comes down to how you much you trusted LeBron's jumper this year. He was on fire from mid-range in the 2009 playoffs which combined with the rest of his already amazing skillset made him impossible to guard. After he made that GW-shot against the Magic, there really was a sense that we were watching the future GOAT grow up before our eyes. Even though they lost that series to the Magic, you had to be impressed by LeBron's performance.

But while it was an incredible performance, in hindsight I feel as if it's pretty clear that his hot shooting was a bit of an anomaly during those playoffs.

LeBron's Mid-Range FG%
Season ----- Reg. Season ---- Playoffs
2004 ----------- 33.2%
2005 ----------- 36.0%
2006 ----------- 38.4% ----------- 29.1%
2007 ----------- 35.1% ----------- 31.8%
2008 ----------- 36.4% ----------- 28.1%
2009 ----------- 36.8% ----------- 47.4%
2010 ----------- 38.8% ----------- 38.3%
2011 ----------- 44.6% ----------- 37.4%
2012 ----------- 42.3% ----------- 35.9%
2013 ----------- 43.2% ----------- 37.2%
2014 ----------- 38.5% ----------- 41.7%
2015 ----------- 37.0% ----------- 29.9%
2016 ----------- 37.5% ----------- 37.3%
2017 ----------- 36.2% ----------- 37.3%
2018 ----------- 38.9% ----------- 48.8%
2019 ----------- 43.1%
2020 ----------- 35.9%


He's never had a regular season in Cleveland where he shot above 40% from the mid-range. And although he had a couple of 40% mid-range shooting seasons in Miami and surprisingly last year in LA, none of those seasons ended up with him maintaining that level of mid-range shooting in the playoffs.

The only time he was a comparable mid-range shooter in the playoffs to his '09 season was in the '14 playoffs and the '18 playoffs, and even the '14 mid-range numbers aren't very close. But out those 3 playoff runs, the '09 season felt like it was the "luckiest" and least sustainable.

In the 2014 playoffs, LeBron was shooting 40.7% from 3 and 80.6% from the FT line. He has never shot better in his entire life. Yes, it was still just a hot stretch, but the fact that he was shooting well from all over the field makes you feel more confident in his 41.7% mid-range FG%. He had also shown himself to be a more reliable shooter in Miami than Cleveland over the previous regular seasons.

In the 2018 playoffs, LeBron actually shot better from mid-range than he did in 2009. And while it looks like just as much of an anomaly statistically, there was a different feel to it. When you were watching LeBron in the 2018 playoffs, you were watching an athlete who looked like the definition of Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 Hour Rule" who had mastered the sport and had the ultimate confidence in his game. Watching the the types of ridiculous fadeaway jumpers he was making against the Raptors, the famously arrogant "spinning the ball in Ibaka's face" shot; it just felt different. Even if you knew the 48.8% (Dirk-esque) mid-range shooting was unsustainable, nothing about it felt random or lucky.

The 47.4% mid-range shooting in the 2009 playoffs was glorious to watch but it felt more "random" and "lucky" than the '14 or '18 runs. In 2009, he had clearly improved as a shooter compared to previous seasons (career high 78% FT shooter). But his regular season mid-range shooting didn't stand out. He was shooting 33.3% from 3 and 74.9% from the FT line during the playoffs, so unlike 2014 it wasn't like he was hot from everywhere on the floor. And also unlike the 2014 and 2018 playoff runs, it didn't look like LeBron added stuff to his bag of moves.

IF 2009 Playoff LeBron's outside shot is the real deal, we're talking about the GOAT by 10 miles. His elite mid-range jumper forcing defenses to respect his shot, in turn leading to him having easier access to drive to the rim (career high .638 FTr) where he is a GOAT-tier finisher. Add that to his all-world passing and DPOY runner-up caliber defense, and we're talking about a player who is CLEARLY better than any version of MJ or Wilt or anyone else who played this game.

But personally, I view 2009 LeBron's playoff shooting as a bit of a mirage. If he advanced to the Finals, I could easily see him having a 30% mid-range shooting series vs. the Lakers despite the 47.4% shooting he had in the playoffs that year.

And at the end of the day, my ability to have the ultimate confidence in MJ's mid-range shooting vs. hoping LeBron's jumper is on in a particular game is why I rate MJ as having the superior peak. You could definitely argue that LeBron in 2009 made a bigger impact than Jordan in 1990 throughout the season, but I feel like against the best defenses that MJ's more complete offensive arsenal makes him the player you'd rather have.

IMO 1990-1993 MJ > 2009 LeBron. You could argue '89 MJ vs. '09 LeBron, and I'd have '13 LeBron ahead of both of those 2 seasons.

[LakerLegend]

To me it comes down to how you much you trusted LeBron's jumper this year. He was on fire from mid-range in the 2009 playoffs which combined with the rest of his already amazing skillset made him impossible to guard. After he made that GW-shot against the Magic, there really was a sense that we were watching the future GOAT grow up before our eyes. Even though they lost that series to the Magic, you had to be impressed by LeBron's performance.

But while it was an incredible performance, in hindsight I feel as if it's pretty clear that his hot shooting was a bit of an anomaly during those playoffs.

LeBron's Mid-Range FG%
Season ----- Reg. Season ---- Playoffs
2004 ----------- 33.2%
2005 ----------- 36.0%
2006 ----------- 38.4% ----------- 29.1%
2007 ----------- 35.1% ----------- 31.8%
2008 ----------- 36.4% ----------- 28.1%
2009 ----------- 36.8% ----------- 47.4%
2010 ----------- 38.8% ----------- 38.3%
2011 ----------- 44.6% ----------- 37.4%
2012 ----------- 42.3% ----------- 35.9%
2013 ----------- 43.2% ----------- 37.2%
2014 ----------- 38.5% ----------- 41.7%
2015 ----------- 37.0% ----------- 29.9%
2016 ----------- 37.5% ----------- 37.3%
2017 ----------- 36.2% ----------- 37.3%
2018 ----------- 38.9% ----------- 48.8%
2019 ----------- 43.1%
2020 ----------- 35.9%


He's never had a regular season in Cleveland where he shot above 40% from the mid-range. And although he had a couple of 40% mid-range shooting seasons in Miami and surprisingly last year in LA, none of those seasons ended up with him maintaining that level of mid-range shooting in the playoffs.

The only time he was a comparable mid-range shooter in the playoffs to his '09 season was in the '14 playoffs and the '18 playoffs, and even the '14 mid-range numbers aren't very close. But out those 3 playoff runs, the '09 season felt like it was the "luckiest" and least sustainable.

In the 2014 playoffs, LeBron was shooting 40.7% from 3 and 80.6% from the FT line. He has never shot better in his entire life. Yes, it was still just a hot stretch, but the fact that he was shooting well from all over the field makes you feel more confident in his 41.7% mid-range FG%. He had also shown himself to be a more reliable shooter in Miami than Cleveland over the previous regular seasons.

In the 2018 playoffs, LeBron actually shot better from mid-range than he did in 2009. And while it looks like just as much of an anomaly statistically, there was a different feel to it. When you were watching LeBron in the 2018 playoffs, you were watching an athlete who looked like the definition of Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 Hour Rule" who had mastered the sport and had the ultimate confidence in his game. Watching the the types of ridiculous fadeaway jumpers he was making against the Raptors, the famously arrogant "spinning the ball in Ibaka's face" shot; it just felt different. Even if you knew the 48.8% (Dirk-esque) mid-range shooting was unsustainable, nothing about it felt random or lucky.

The 47.4% mid-range shooting in the 2009 playoffs was glorious to watch but it felt more "random" and "lucky" than the '14 or '18 runs. In 2009, he had clearly improved as a shooter compared to previous seasons (career high 78% FT shooter). But his regular season mid-range shooting didn't stand out. He was shooting 33.3% from 3 and 74.9% from the FT line during the playoffs, so unlike 2014 it wasn't like he was hot from everywhere on the floor. And also unlike the 2014 and 2018 playoff runs, it didn't look like LeBron added stuff to his bag of moves.

IF 2009 Playoff LeBron's outside shot is the real deal, we're talking about the GOAT by 10 miles. His elite mid-range jumper forcing defenses to respect his shot, in turn leading to him having easier access to drive to the rim (career high .638 FTr) where he is a GOAT-tier finisher. Add that to his all-world passing and DPOY runner-up caliber defense, and we're talking about a player who is CLEARLY better than any version of MJ or Wilt or anyone else who played this game.

But personally, I view 2009 LeBron's playoff shooting as a bit of a mirage. If he advanced to the Finals, I could easily see him having a 30% mid-range shooting series vs. the Lakers despite the 47.4% shooting he had in the playoffs that year.

And at the end of the day, my ability to have the ultimate confidence in MJ's mid-range shooting vs. hoping LeBron's jumper is on in a particular game is why I rate MJ as having the superior peak. You could definitely argue that LeBron in 2009 made a bigger impact than Jordan in 1990 throughout the season, but I feel like against the best defenses that MJ's more complete offensive arsenal makes him the player you'd rather have.

IMO 1990-1993 MJ > 2009 LeBron. You could argue '89 MJ vs. '09 LeBron, and I'd have '13 LeBron ahead of both of those 2 seasons.

Those Hawks and Pistons teams were an absolute joke, and it's not like Hedo and Shard were anything but average defenders at best. His defense against the Magic also left something to be desired.

Look at LeBron's performances in the playoff series he was eliminated in during each of the following years: 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011.

2009 is the outlier for reasons that have nothing to do with LeBron.

[Jiminy Glick]

Team A:

1996 Payton
1990 Jordan
1992 Pippen
2002 Garnett
1974 Kareem

Team B:

1996 Payton
2009 LeBron
1992 Pippen
2002 Garnett
1974 Kareem

I think Team A wins.