Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1975 or earlier)

[eminence]

I probably need to look at some of the ABA guys a bit closer, Brown and Jones jump out, anybody else anyone would strongly recommend? Daniels would be obvious but had a brief NBA stint in '77.

If you're thinking of Jimmy Jones, he retired in 1977.

As for Roger Brown, it's hard for me to put him ahead of Zelmo. Zelmo is 3 years older, comes right in an leads a team to a tile at a time when Brown is no loner the best on his team (Daniels), and continues playing well at an older age.

I think the ABA is a really big deal and players should be celebrated for it, but the biggest guys aren't eligible yet, and the guy who seems most worthy of a nudge this time around is Zelmo to me.

Guess would be Larry Jones (just on timeline). Both peaked in a weak league, wouldn't be on my radar ... but we'll find out.

[Greer] very clearly the #2 guy on the '67 76ers

Box composites, RS and playoffs, don't exactly agree, and Walker actually seems a purer shooter for his position. Even accounting for position the WS/48 gap is very big (RS or playoffs). Greer has minutes, tertiary playmaking (though this is attempted to be accounted for in the box, but an advantage) and a slightly better defensive rep, I think (and weaker backup for value within context/explanation of minutes). Doesn't seem that clear cut, imo.


RE; Lucas he has some bad wowy data for the 60s.

Might be out on this for some time. Stay safe you guys.

I was originally thinking of Jimmy, whoops, will take him off the list.

I'm currently leaning Zelmo over Bellamy for the final slot, does anyone have any strong opinions on that one either way?

[Doctor MJ]

.

- Fair enough. Both (Greer & Walker) seem to be making the cut for me.

- RE; Lucas he has some bad wowy data for the 60s.

Yup. Link to where people can look that up:
https://backpicks.com/metrics/wowy-data/

- Stay safe.

I'll echo that. Troubling time. Be safe.

[penbeast0]

I don't have either in my top 10 yet but between the two I'd take Zelmo. Bells was a talented post scorer, great numbers on really weak expansion teams sliding down to good numbers for a long time as a solid center in the 70s. Not a great defender by rep, certainly not an intangibles guy, I remember stories about him not being in shape (Bellamy's ass has it's own zip code was my favorite line). Certainly a longevity/durability advantage over Beaty. Not good playoff numbers but then his early teams when he put up the HOF stat lines ranged from truly terrible to pretty mediocre.

Beaty has more range, one of the early centers that could draw a big man out like Clyde Lovellette. My questions on him were about his durability and his ability to pass out of the post (not Bellamy's strong suit either but Bells seemed a better passer than Beaty). In terms of playoffs, he had that one great run in Utah and his numbers look good compared to his regular season numbers. I'd say certainly the player I would choose if both were healthy.

[kipper34]

I'd like to echo some other comments and hope that everybody is staying safe. Very scary times but hopefully change is coming. I didn't do as much as a deep dive as the other rounds but I'd still like to give my votes.

Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Willis Reed and Hal Greer are locks

Dave Debusschere: one of the best defenders of his era, he transformed the Knicks and I like his versatility. Clear choice for me.

Chet Walker: Effortless scorer that maintained very high efficiency throughout his career. He could play many different roles and fit in to different offences. He provided lift to the Wilt/Hal Greer Sixers and when he was asked to do more he could up his volume maintaining efficiency. A sneaky good off ball player and from what I've seen a solid defender.

For now I've gonna leave it at 8 because I'm so split on the last 2 spots. Lucas, Howell, Wilkens, Bellamy and Beaty are all so close to me. Even Gus Johnson and Roger Brown have arguments. I may come back to pick between them but for now I'll stick to these 8

[trex_8063]

Sorry I haven't had as much time as I'd like to participate in this one. Going to get my votes in before deadline....

OFFICIAL VOTES:
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Willis Reed
Hal Greer

After that it's a touch more difficult, but I'll go with....

Dave DeBusschere - arguably one of the biggest disconnects between his box composites [which are fairly pedestrian] and his impact indicators [Knicks making the leap as soon as he came aboard, prime WOWYR of +5.9] of all-time. The Pistons got A LOT worse defensively in trading him away for Walt Bellamy (though they did get a bit better offensively, too).

Bailey Howell - Moderate-high(ish) volume scorer on superb efficiency (as high as +10.36% rTS in '65), and decent rebounder. Underrated imo, and a pretty impactful offensive player: the Pistons offense improves by +3.0 the first year with rookie Howell; their ORtg worsens by -1.0 when he left. Baltimore's offense improves by +2.8 when he arrives, and their offense falls off by -3.6 when he leaves. Boston's offense improves by +4.0 the first year of his arrival to the best offense seen since pre-Russell (though it does drop off a fair bit by the following year, so still better than any Celtic offense of the 1960's). Prime WOWYR of +3.6.

Walt Bellamy - Bellamy was inconsistent [leaning poor most of the time] defensively, and consequently exerted impact that's below the limited box composites we have for the time. He might seem an odd pick after what I said above. Though he still has a +2.9 prime WOWYR and ridiculous box numbers. A 13+ year career avg >37 mpg and insanely durable left him with a remarkable statistical footprint.

Chet Walker - Nothing flashy about his game. But just an amazing shooter in the 10-15 ft range, excellent FT shooter, bit of post game, and really solid rebounding SF.....he'd just very quietly go out and get you 20/8 or similar on excellent efficiency. And a really passable/decent defender to my eye (this mostly from his Chicago years that I've seen him). 13-year career, very durable, very consistent; still playing at an All-Star level in his final season. Seriously underrated guy historically.


Some hard cuts this round. Jerry Lucas and Zelmo Beaty in particular; the former I think is probably a pinch overrated all-time, the latter I think is criminally underrated by history. Maybe next round.....

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, so things have settled in my mind a bit. Here's my vote, though it could still change.

Elgin Baylor - one the clear cut elite

Hal Greer - who was the big scorer leading Wilt's best team to the chip? Hall Freaking Greer. Add in longevity as an all-star on a successful team. Fundamentally solid candidate that would be hard not to pick.

Wilt Chamberlain - King of the Class. I'm a known critic, but his importance to the game is second to none.

Bailey Howell - rather ahead of his time scoring efficiency, all-star on 3 team, scaled to key role on champions. I saw him as a maybe going in.

Jerry West - clear cut elite, and still so much better than people realize, and so ahead of his time

Oscar Robertson - clear cut elite, and every bit the offensive juggernaut his supporters have always claimed

Zelmo Beaty - I reached clarity on him and came out very positive. Was definitely a maybe going in. His NBA career is not alone sufficient to earn him this spot, but he had an excellent career. In fact, I hadn't remembered that the Hawks moved on from Wilkens before Zelmo left, and Zelmo and the team still did well. They did well after Zelmo too, but I went in thinking that Wilkens had accomplished much more on the Hawks than Zelmo, and and came away feeling like the gap wasn't all that big if it really existed beyond the longevity edge of Wilkens...which was smaller than I was thinking.

Then Zelmo goes to the ABA and things go great of course. But really, dude had to sit out a year before he was allowed to play, and jumped right in becoming the best player on the best team and winning the championship. His TS% lived above 60, which was very rare for that time. But also, I think it's important to remember that while the league at this time wasn't as strong as it would later be, Rick Barry - a guy I will have as a hard lock when we get to him soon - was in the league and really didn't seem as effective as Zelmo was. What he did was beyond any reasonable expectation based on the NBA simply being stronger than the ABA, Zelmo showed something new here. I have to pick him, he went from a maybe to not my final pick.

Chet Walker - very much a maybe at the start. His top 3 primacy on the '67 76ers is a starting point for me. The efficiency with which he worked, and the fact that he kept being an all-star for a long time across teams makes him feel like his candidacy is fundamentally solid. Also seems like an athlete from a later era.

Dave Debusschere - A player-coach-all-star on one team who becomes of the Big 3 for the definitive core of the decade on his second (and final) team. A badass career.

Willis Reed - One of two guy's who seemed like they had Wilt's kryptonite along with Russell. Gets a bit too much credit - that should go to Walt Frazier - but his career leaves an indelible mark. Essential for any Hall looking to leave out nothing important.

Alright, that means I'm leaving some big names out.

Honorable Mention:

Jerry Lucas - the biggest name of the omissions with the greatest stature was also the hardest out. In fact at first I miscounted and thought he'd made my 10, but he came in at #11. Despite this I came away not feeling particularly negative about him, but then I wasn't starting from scratch.

The heart of the problem with Lucas is that his star years came on a Cincinnati Royal team that he never learned to impact the way a big-time star is supposed to do. For his 1st 5 seasons he gets named All-NBA each year, but the team erodes to mediocrity. This happens because the defense is bad, and Oscar seems to be able to make the offense good by himself. Lucas seems to have been drafted into the absolute worst place for him to impact.

Lucas spends two years on the Warriors, again his presence doesn't seem to matter. This time he's on a team that has the most reliable defensive anchor left in the league (this is just after Russell retired and I'm talking about Nate Thurmond), you'd hope that would be the missing ingredient to unlock a portal to him living up to his potential, but nope.

If Lucas' career ended there I'd be harsher, but it says something when a team like the Holzman Knicks wants you, and he really does seem to blend right in offensively to their read & react model. I feel like if Lucas had been on a team like this his entire career it would have gone so much better. In his first year there the Knicks upset their way to the Finals, which is really an excellent accomplishment without Reed. They'd win the title the next year with Lucas playing a much smaller role. Reed was back and Lucas was not able to preserve a spot in the team's main lineup by squeezing someone else out (Debusschere, Bradley, Monroe, Frazier).

In the end, I think Lucas has shown he can be a part of a successful team in a variety of ways, and I don't think it's truly right to say that he was demoted on the champion Knicks because he was fundamentally incapable of playing a bigger role on a champion. But in terms of cumulative accomplishment, it's not overwhelming. I'm more impressed with the impact others had more.

Lenny Wilkens - I went in really feeling like I was going to pick Wilkens. Something I noticed though is that his great longevity comes from him being willing to keep playing on bad teams. The contenders didn't seem that interested. Now, he played a significant role on an NBA finalist his rookie year and performed admirably, so it's not that he's fundamentally incapable of scaling up to that scale, but after getting to play with superior talents early in his career (Pettit & Hagan), he really just seems like a B-list guy running on a mediocrity treadmill.

But let me say that I still very much respect Wilkens career, and he would have made it had he been competing against the classes from earlier years (as would Lucas).

[Dr Positivity]

Official vote

Lock:

Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Willis Reed

No need to elaborate on those

Hal Greer - This one is very easy and could be in no elaborate section honestly. Perennial 2nd team All NBA, great skillset (speed, jumper, defense), part of champion

Chet Walker - Rock solid perennial all-star and being on Sixers champion puts him over the edge

Dave DeBusschere - One of the best defensive players all time and a shooter, critical to Knicks like Draymond is to Warriors

Bailey Howell - Great offensive career for this era, and on multiple Celtics champions. Easier than I thought.

Zelmo Beaty - He seems like a very solid player and his ABA performance gives him the bump in over Lucas.

[70sFan]

I want to change my vote from Bellamy to Chet Walker. I'm convinced now after various posts in this thread that he's more worthy candidate. He always played in good teams and was key contributor to all of them. He was decent defender and excellent scorer.

Bellamy for some reason never impressed me impact-wise. He was good player with quite versatile skillset but he never reached his potential. After studying this era a lot, I came to conclusion that Beaty was simply better player than him, despite lesser raw stats and lesser reputation.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Wilt, West, Oscar, Baylor, Reed and Greer shouldn't be a discussion, I guess.
I would then go for Debusschere, Lucas, Walker and probably, at last, Bellamy.

[penbeast0]

VOTING SO FAR:

Personal Note: I am throwing my final vote to Zelmo Beaty over Bailey Howell. I have always had a soft spot for the ABA.

Wilt Chamberlain (all)
Oscar Robertson (all)
Jerry West (all)
Elgin Baylor (all)
Hal Greer (all)
Willis Reed (all)

Chet Walker (penbeast0, Narigo, Dutchball97, kipper34, trex_8063, 70sFan, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, eminence)
Dave DeBusschere (penbeast0, Dutchball97, 70sFan, worldjbfree, kipper34, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, eminence)

Jerry Lucas (penbeast0, Narigo, Dutchball97, 70sFan, worldjbfree, Ryoga Hibiki, eminence)
Zelmo Beaty (penbeast0, Narigo, Dutchball97, 70sFan, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity, eminence)

Bailey Howell (Narigo, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity)
Lenny Wilkens (Narigo, worldjbfree)
Walt Bellamy (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki)
Gus Johnson (worldjbfree)

[Dutchball97]

So Chet Walker and Dave DeBusschere have the 7th and 8th spots with 9 votes each. Jerry Lucas and Zelmo Beaty would fill out the list with 6 votes each and Bailey Howell is the closest runner-up with 4 votes.

[eminence]

Well, my votes look pretty boring considering how the voting looks right now, but to get these in quick before the day starts.

Locks:
Oscar
Wilt
West
Baylor
Greer
Reed

Others:
Walker
DeBusschere
Lucas
Zelmo

[penbeast0]

Entering an ugly era of basketball in some ways (cocaine, playing for contracts, ABA disintegrating) with lot more expansion inflated stats. My era, really, this is the one where I was a diehard fan watching and playing at every opportunity. I will definitely be considering whoever doesn't make it here when the next round starts; though with expansion, there are also a lot more opportunities for players to show their greatness.

A question to consider: If we had started at this point (retired in 75 or earlier), how many of the earlier candidates would make it?

Sure things:

Mikan
Pettit
Russell
+
Wilt
West
Oscar
Baylor
---------------------
That only leaves 3 spots which I fill with:
Arizin
Shayes
Sam Jones

leaving out:
Hagan
Greer
Reed

[Doctor MJ]

A question to consider: If we had started at this point (retired in 75 or earlier), how many of the earlier candidates would make it?

So 10 most HOF worthy through '75?

I feel like these would be the 10 dominant guys:

George Mikan - first dominant champion
Dolph Schayes - arguably the Player of the Decade in the '50s
Bob Cousy - top '50s player, becomes a part of the GOAT dynasty into the '60s
Paul Arizin - best offensive player of his era, career broken up by military
Bob Pettit - best player from the "generation" after Mikan (although actually not much older than Russell, who was obvs better)
Bill Russell - perhaps a better career than the other 9 guys here combined. I jest but think he deserves hyperbole.
Elgin Baylor - seen as clearly part of this group
Wilt Chamberlain - the best talent of the era, the biggest star
Jerry West - likely would be the best of these players in modern basketball
Oscar Robertson - obvious choice for Offensive GOAT through this era

I can get behind your preference for Sam Jones as a player over Cousy, but from a Hall perspective, Cousy's clearly ahead to me.

The two other guys I'd bring up are Bob Davies and Willis Reed.

Bob Davies - The Rochester Royals were the 2nd best team of the early BAA/NBL/NBA era. They won a title before Mikan, were the only team to win a title in the middle of Mikan's dynasty, and were the first offensive dynasty of the NBA. Davies was the heart & soul. It's really just a question of how much you want to emphasize trailblazers when you know that the level of the league surpassed them.

Willis Reed - the avatar of the Holzman Knicks, rightly or wrongly, which are a really big deal. Short prime, but in all honesty, win he comes back and wins Finals MVP in '73 he's already older than Baylor was when he started holding West back. If I really believed he deserved the big accolades he got (MVP, 2 Finals MVPs), the choice of him over Baylor would be easy. The tricky part is that I think Walt Frazier deserves more credit than Reed. Of course I also think he deserves more credit than Baylor.

[penbeast0]

Yeah, I think Cousy will garner more support but Jones was the second most important player to the Celtics dynasty (Havlicek was third) and I that's more important what Cousy accomplished.

[Doctor MJ]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ns8CtEKuW9p5Cv8Vb0xYEVCtg1mU9Qp-C8un7HQ7epE/edit?usp=sharing

Updated spreadsheet.

[trex_8063]

A question to consider: If we had started at this point (retired in 75 or earlier), how many of the earlier candidates would make it?

If we'd started here, I think my 10 picks would have been:

Russell
Wilt
Oscar
Jerry
Pettit
Mikan
Baylor
Schayes
Cousy
Reed

Tough calls, but even guys like Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Dave DeBusschere, and Chet Walker would have missed the cut for me.