Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier)

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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:07 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:With George McGinnis' it's time to analyze him, and I found myself analyzing the Pacers' run, and specifically Roger Brown as part of this.

.


Your thoughts on Bellamy thus far have been so unflattering ["scathing" might be more accurate] that I almost cringe to ask this question, but as I value your opinion [even though we disagree more often than not].....how would you compare Bellamy to McGinnis?


lol. Well as you can probably guess, if I vote for either into the Hall here, it will be reluctantly.

Okay well:

McGinnis still has the fact that he was on 2 ABA title teams, and that a team won the title with him being featured. Bellamy has nothing like that.

On the other hand, while Bellamy became an afterthought, he could still get work. It doesn't feel like his career got "cancelled" the way McGinnis did. Bellamy was able to accept a lesser role and perform it to his mediocre best, whereas McGinnis just never seemed to find an equilibrium.

Which is better? It's tough, but at this moment I think I'd have to side with McGinnis. He was a part of something that really broke through and he really needs to be a part of the story of the era in a way Bellamy just doesn't.
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#22 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:21 pm

A further bit of trivia relating to Louie Dampier and his NBA career.

Back in college as a Kentucky Wildcat, there were two stars who were NBA prospects: Dampier, and Pat Riley. Riley was the better prospect. Riley had better size and was drafted 7th overall while Dampier was drafted 38th. Riley would go to the NBA where Dampier would instead decide instead to go join the new hometown pro team the Kentucky Colonels.

Riley would play in the NBA for 8 seasons until '75-76 and would win a title on the '71-72 Lakers...the franchise that would later hire him announcer and then coach, beginning his journey to becoming the NBA's mob boss.

In Riley's total career, he play would net 4.5 Win Shares, mostly coming while playing with West & Wilt.

During that time Dampier was becoming the GOAT point guard of the ABA of course, but after Riley's career was over, with Dampier at age 32 would joint the NBA for 3 years. This run is a step down from his time in the ABA of course, but I've also mentioned that his prominence would go up in the 2nd year as he played major minutes on a 50 win team. For perspective:

In those 3 years in the NBA, Dampier would net 6.7 Win Shares.

I could see imagining that maybe if Riley had gone to the ABA he'd have been a legend too. After all, if they played on the same college team and Riley was the better prospect, maybe Dampier got purely lucky to play in an inferior league.

I think what we actually see though is that even an old past-prime Dampier thrust on to a new team in a league with no 3's at all was likely better than Riley ever was. The wrong player was singled out as the better prospect, and as a result, that wrong player got enough run in the NBA to get into the old boy's network and eventually take it over.

Funny how life works sometimes.
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#23 » by trex_8063 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:25 pm

I'm going to brain-storm my tentative picks for this round....

The "locks":
Bob Lanier
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Dan Issel

After that, there are a few I'm pretty set on supporting:
Walt Bellamy (again)


And after that, I need to decide on the last four spots among:
George McGinnis
Bob Dandridge
Tiny Archibald
Lenny Wilkens
Spencer Haywood
Gail Goodrich
….will also look more at Roger Brown, David Thompson, and Dave Bing

I feel like Maravich needs a look (just from the standpoint of his historical and cultural relevance, and perhaps acknowledging his era portability [moving forward in time] is actually pretty good), but I can't really see myself ever supporting him here. I feel he's probably the most grotesquely overrated star ever.
Also not ready to look all that close at Jo Jo White, but I'll elaborate in a separate post.
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#24 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:36 pm

I expected to have missed someone but can't believe I forgot about Lanier. Looks like White won't be making the cut after all.
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#25 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:51 pm

Quick thoughts on other guys:

I've become a real believer in Cowens and Unseld. I'm not sure if they actually deserved their MVPs, but they warranted being in the conversation and did a TON of great things for their team. For me Class King is between these two, though I'll say, it feels right to give Unseld the nod with his recent passing. RIP.

I'm considerably more critical on Hayes on offense. I think that at the time and for a long time afterward there was a feeling that with Hayes being the scorer (rather than Unseld) you have to give him the nod. I think though that it's really clear that the Bullets shouldn't have been using Hayes as a volume scorer at all. Like - if that's all you got, don't use a volume scorer period. Unseld's approach to the game led him to concentrate all his efforts on stuff that actually helped his team, Hayes was spending a lot of his effort in the glamorous role with just bloody awful efficiency. And of course, as I say, whenever I see a volume scoring big man with poor efficiency for no obvious justifiable reason, I get skeptical.

As I say all of this, I'll be very surprised if I don't vote Hayes in. I doubt there's 10 guys here who I think actually are more worthy. Hayes was part of a Big 2 that had great success in the '70s.

I believe in Tiny Archibald. I was skeptical of him when I first saw the points & assists, but our best estimate for team ORtg says he ran the best offense that year too. Defense was terrible of course, and a guy named Tiny probably didn't help, but his offensive impact sure seems to be legit. I might vote him in if that was all there was to it, but the way he found a way to fit in with the Bird Celtics makes him a total lock.

David Thompson was legit. Longevity is an obvious issue, I expect he'll get my vote, but if he doesn't it won't because I don't think he was great.

Bob Lanier is a guy I've never really had that much of a handle on. Not the defensive anchor you might hope for, but he seems to have been fundamentally solid for a long time. The fact that after his starring days he was a part of those great - on both sides of the ball - Bucks make him seem like he'll almost certainly get my vote.

Spencer Haywood seems to have some issues like Bellamy & McGinnis where he just isn't quite up to being the Man against top competition and never quite finds his equilibrium to be a vital piece on a team that works. But he does hang around, and deep into his career he's at least a guy getting minutes on a champion (Lakers) team.

Regarding Haywood's ABA year, I'm less impressed with that then I am guys like Connie or Zelmo, but it is something that's at least in the ballpark with McGinnis' best year.

And then there's Haywood's historical place in the game with his lawsuit against the NBA. Pushing the NBA to allow in underclassmen, and backing it up not just with the ABA season, but with the fact that NBA teams were clearly clamoring for his services once they saw what he could do against grown men.

I'm not super high on Haywood, but have him ahead of McGinnis and Bellamy.

Other guys I know I'll be thinking about more for the last few spots:

Paul Westphal
Bob Dandridge
Rudy Tomjanovich
Jo Jo White
Jamal Wilkes

I'll also be considering also rans from before. Lenny Wilkens probably being the strongest candidate, though as I've said, I think the debate between he and the Hawks' next gen guy Lou Hudson is not so clear cut.

Regarding more historical guys, I did want to say that if we were doing a more expansive Hall that included someone like Bobby McDermott, then voting for Al Cervi would be a no-brainer for me. I think you could argue that even so I should have given more consideration to Cervi earlier on, but I really don't think I'm going to be voting for super-old time guys at this point. For me guys like Fulks & Cervi are guys who get in in the first class if the group of voters really believes in their candidacy, and if they don't, they belong in some kind of "Zeroth" class aimed at identifying precursors rather than being compared with guys who played many decades later in much stronger leagues.

But yeah, did want to say: Cervii is most definitely a HOF guy if you're not worrying about things like longevity for early-days guys.
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#26 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:56 pm

For now:
- Unseld
- Lanier
- Hayes
- Cowens
- Westphal
- Issel
- Thompson

I will check the thread and add the rest

Rather weak class, probably Cowens headlining it?

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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#27 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:00 pm

trex_8063 wrote:I feel like Maravich needs a look


I really think anyone considering Maravich needs to look at teammate Lou Hudson. To me Maravich is instantly the "bigger star" in basketball pop culture, but Hudson was the better player being held back at least to some degree by the insistence that Maravich would be so good to make such frustrations up front worthwhile. Maravich never turned that corner.

I didn't vote for Hudson last time so it's not like I'm super-high on him, but I think he's actually a legit candidate and an exciting star in his own right. I find the way Maravich was such a bigger name to be disturbing frankly. Like, I get that he was a big deal to basketball pop culture, but I have a problem with a worse White player being a bigger name than his better Black teammate. There's legit basketball reasons you can point to - Maravich was a big name star at LSU and had made Magic-like plays - but the idea that by the time Maravich was out of Atlanta people were still saying "If only he had better teammates..." when Hudson was there the whole time being better than Maravich just doesn't seem right.
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:02 pm

Ah, Gail Goodrich. Yes, I need to consider him too. Not clear cut at all that Wilkens/Hudson were higher than Goodrich among the also rans.
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#29 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:09 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:I might consider Roger Brown over Jo Jo White but I'll wait to hear more arguments on that (or for others I've missed/disregarded).

On a side note, we're getting blue on red Bullets colors for the 85 class right?


I love that someone has an opinion on this.

I was actually thinking blue on white because that's what both home and away jerseys of the era had for the team name:

Image

Image

When I think of those Bullets I absolutely think of the beautiful tri-color (red, white, and blue) with the horizontal stripes that are perfect to illustrate Unseld's wide from, but in terms of the text, I think of the blue-on-white.

What say y'all?
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#30 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:10 pm

Unseld adjacent tangent:

The Pelicans soooooo need to keep and emphasize these jerseys with Zion:

Image

He looks like an mf-in brick wall in that jersey. (Plus Mardi Gras colors, which any non-Saints NO team should be mandated to use.)
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#31 » by Narigo » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:26 pm

Bob Lanier
Wes Unseld
Elvin Hayes
Dave Cowens
Dan Issel
George McGinnis
Lenny Wilkens
Tiny Archibald
Bob Dandridge
Pete Maravich
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
BE:
BE:
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#32 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 6:14 pm

Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Elvin Hayes

Sure thing winners with great defense and variable offense.

Paul Westphal
Tiny Archibald
Mack Calvin

OF these three, Archibald is the most dominant, he and Calvin were very similar players and Calvin did it longer. But Westphal is the guy I think impact winning most with decent defense, strong efficient scoring, and versatility although I'd want a longer prime to be sure.

David Thompson
Bob Dandridge
Lou Hudson
Roger Brown

Thompson has the peak years, Hudson the longest, most consistent run, Dandridge the defense and Dandridge and Brown the rings.

Bob Lanier
Spencer Haywood
Dan Issel
Walt Bellamy
George McGinnis

Five guys who didn't play good defense in their primes (though all but Issel could, they just weren't focused that way). All but Lanier have ridiculous stat years that they didn't maintain. Haywood has the most accolades, he had that one year with ridiculous rebounding in the ABA but was a consistent scorer and All-NBA forward in the NBA. All put up big stats offensively, Lanier the best, McGinnis just didn't quite keep up with the other three.

VOTES: (by size)
Lanier
Hayes
Cowens

Unseld
Issel
Haywood

Dandridge
Thompson
Westphal
Archibald


Not completely happy with my votes, just a lot of guys with great strengths and great holes in their games, but that's the list unless someone convinces me otherwise.
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#33 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 6:20 pm

The Votes so far:

Elvin Hayes (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Dave Cowens (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Wes Unseld (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)

Tiny Archibald (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Dan Issel (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Paul Westphal (Dutchball97, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Bob Lanier (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)

George McGinnis (Dutchball97, Narigo, Dr Positivity)
David Thompson (Dutchball97, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)
Bob Dandridge (Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity)

Spencer Haywood (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Lenny Wilkens (Narigo)
Pete Maravich (Narigo)
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#34 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 5, 2020 6:21 pm

Votes

Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Elvin Hayes
Bob Lanier
Paul Westphal
Tiny Archibald
Dan Issel
Bob Dandridge
George McGinnis
David Thompson
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#35 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 9:56 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Votes


Why George McGinnis over Spencer Haywood?

(a) Haywood's one ABA season (MVP) probably peaks higher than McGinnis's co-MVP year
(b) Haywood's NBA prime run in Seattle is about 25/12.5/2 with probably about 2.5 turnovers (based on 3.0 as a rookie and less than 2 as a lower usage vet) v. McGinnis's NBA prime of about 22/11.5/4 but with 4.5 turnovers (based on an average of 5 in ABA, over 4 when they started counting in NBA)
(c) Haywood was a slightly more efficient scorer as well

Neither played much team ball defensively, though both were capable of strong individual defense with their athleticisms. McGinnis has better DWS and did a better job pushing people in the post, Haywood stayed with his man better out on the floor (McGinnis liked to gamble for steals and blocks too much).

McGinnis was better liked but as a big goofy kid while Haywood seemed more professional (but far less likeable). Haywood's teams did suck in Seattle but then there wasn't much around him. McGinnis played on much more talented teams (both leagues) and was successful in Indianapolis, less so in Philly, and a failure in Denver and back in Indiana; Haywood failed to mesh with McAdoo in NY (though McAdoo by that point was losing his luster as well) so neither are known for intangibles either.

Haywood was ABA MVP, All-NBA 1st team twice, All-NBA 2nd team twice so contemporaries thought well of him. (total 3x1st, 2x2nd)
McGinnis was ABA co-MVP, all ABA 1st one other time, all-ABA 2nd once, All NBA 1st once, and All NBA 2nd once. (total 3x1st, 2x2nd) so awards are roughly equal.

It seems to me that they are similar players but Haywood has a clear edge due to his superior scoring, rebounding, and efficiency and while McGinnis creates more assists, he also is extremely turnover prone (about the same A/T ratio).
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#36 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 5, 2020 10:24 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Votes


Why George McGinnis over Spencer Haywood?

(a) Haywood's one ABA season (MVP) probably peaks higher than McGinnis's co-MVP year
(b) Haywood's NBA prime run in Seattle is about 25/12.5/2 with probably about 2.5 turnovers (based on 3.0 as a rookie and less than 2 as a lower usage vet) v. McGinnis's NBA prime of about 22/11.5/4 but with 4.5 turnovers (based on an average of 5 in ABA, over 4 when they started counting in NBA)
(c) Haywood was a slightly more efficient scorer as well

Neither played much team ball defensively, though both were capable of strong individual defense with their athleticisms. McGinnis has better DWS and did a better job pushing people in the post, Haywood stayed with his man better out on the floor (McGinnis liked to gamble for steals and blocks too much).

McGinnis was better liked but as a big goofy kid while Haywood seemed more professional (but far less likeable). Haywood's teams did suck in Seattle but then there wasn't much around him. McGinnis played on much more talented teams (both leagues) and was successful in Indianapolis, less so in Philly, and a failure in Denver and back in Indiana; Haywood failed to mesh with McAdoo in NY (though McAdoo by that point was losing his luster as well) so neither are known for intangibles either.

Haywood was ABA MVP, All-NBA 1st team twice, All-NBA 2nd team twice so contemporaries thought well of him. (total 3x1st, 2x2nd)
McGinnis was ABA co-MVP, all ABA 1st one other time, all-ABA 2nd once, All NBA 1st once, and All NBA 2nd once. (total 3x1st, 2x2nd) so awards are roughly equal.

It seems to me that they are similar players but Haywood has a clear edge due to his superior scoring, rebounding, and efficiency and while McGinnis creates more assists, he also is extremely turnover prone (about the same A/T ratio).


Due to competition level I value McGinnis co-MVP late in the ABA to be more valuable than Haywood's earlier one, and McGinnis proved himself on winning teams much more. I thought McGinnis was too big a part of the ABA to leave off as an MVP who put up superstar stats on 73 title team and 75 finalist, and still an important player on 72. His NBA career isn't totally without value either.
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#37 » by wojoaderge » Fri Jun 5, 2020 10:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:The team falls off a cliff in their full year with him[


penbeast0 wrote:a failure in Denver


For accuracy's sake, I have to say you guys are really exaggerating
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#38 » by wojoaderge » Fri Jun 5, 2020 10:52 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:The team falls off a cliff in their full year with him[


penbeast0 wrote:a failure in Denver


For accuracy's sake, I have to say you guys are really exaggerating

Furthermore, go to 14:28:

"Coach, why don't you just relax? We're not good enough to beat the Lakers. We've had a great year, why don't you just relax and cool down?"
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Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#39 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 11:26 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:The team falls off a cliff in their full year with him[


penbeast0 wrote:a failure in Denver


For accuracy's sake, I have to say you guys are really exaggerating


True, his first year they only fell off 1 game, it was the second year where he was injured that Denver fell from 50 to 48 to 47 . . . . to 30 wins. I had forgotten the good year was that good. They then dealt him for Alex English and went to 37 then back up to 46 wins. So you are right, exaggerated. His injury hurt the team more than his play.
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Re: Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier) 

Post#40 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 6, 2020 1:24 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Due to competition level I value McGinnis co-MVP late in the ABA to be more valuable than Haywood's earlier one.


I just want to hit something right here.

Ordinarily: I'd agree. Show me basically the same type of dominance in '75 compared to '69, yes, I'd say that's harder to do in '75.

But let's look at the co-MVP more closely.

1. Erving was on the defending champion - who he of course led to that championship - and they won 58 games in '74-75. McGinnis' Pacers had 45 wins, which was the least number of wins the Pacers had had since '69.

2. Erving played all games, was 3rd in the league in minutes played (ahead of McGinnis), led the league in PER, WS, and VORP.

3. McGinnis lead the league in scoring, and had more rebounds and assists than Erving.

I think it's really crystal clear why the those who supported McGinnis supported him, and they were 100% wrong to do so by any kind of analysis that modern observers would consider rigorous, though I am biased by the fact that I know how badly the Nets would eventually fall off without Erving 2 years later. (Hint: A lot more than Indiana would fall off without McGinnis 1 year later.)

This is not to say that they necessarily believed that McGinnis actually was more "valuable" than Erving. They might have literally thought simply in terms of "outstandingness" and thus by their pre-analytical perspective, that meant stathoarding.

Another factor was surely the fact that McGinnis hadn't won one yet, and he'd already won a title. He'd "done enough" to be recognized as an MVP-type player, and since Erving was already so recognized, might as well allow McGinnis admission to the club. It should also be noted that the ABA voters had never given back-to-back MVPs before, and the only player with 2 MVPs was Mel Daniels, who was the venerated king of the league with 3 championships. (Interestingly, on the same team as McGinnis - Indiana Pacers, though I'm certainly not alleging an Indiana Illuminati MVP Conspiracy.)

For the record, McGinnis was 2nd in PER, 3rd in Win Shares, and 2nd in VORP. So I'm not saying that by modern standards McGinnis wouldn't be getting MVP consideration. But those advocating for him would be people communities like our would tear apart with a thousand needles of logic.

I think you really have to ask yourself how high he deserved to place going in with the understanding that this guy was far more about production than impact, and his team was not actually getting better compared to where they were before.
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