RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 (Bill Russell)

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#21 » by Ambrose » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:29 pm

70sFan wrote:
Ambrose wrote:I don't think he's arguing the fact that Russell's Celtics skewed the league average more. I think he's arguing that it's simply easier to be a dominant defense in an 8 team league than a 30 team league due to the quality of the rest of the league. I could be wrong.

But he didn't answer to my point then. Besides, I don't see any reason to believe that the league was untalented in the early 1960s. I've seen some of the worst teams in the league in action from that era (1962 Knicks, 1960 Royals and Lakers, 1967 Pistons, 1968 Rockets) and none of them looked untalented outside of 1962 Packers (which were terrible, I have to say that but only in one season).


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing I was merely pointing out you guys may be arguing different points.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#22 » by SeniorWalker » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 pm

#4 Russell. For the same reasons as in my first post or two in this project. Boiling down the concept of a greatest of all time into a short expression: "how great your make your team is how great you are", russell has a strong argument for top 2. However, I truly believe LeBron (and MJ who is still my #1) to be a better individual player than he, although I admit the modern bias and fair amount of ignorance I have on deeper details in his career. Impact wise though, its gard to touch him.

#5 Wilt. In general i have relatively weak knowledge on players before the popular "modern era" (1980-), with very few exceptions.

I think if one wants to just evaluate players on how dominant they were in their own time, Wilt has a reasonable argument for #1. Probably the most gifted NBA athlete ever, possibly even over LeBron who i generally consider the most talented. And like LeBron, his only limitations were those placed in his own mind. I see such a strong link between those two players and what their effective roles were in their times.

Anyway because of this, i have a hard time putting wilt outside the top 5 despite him coming up a bit short in winning. There no way you can convince me that Duncan and other guys were actually better than he, although they do follow closely behind on the list for me. I could be swayed about the overall order of #5-10 though, have no problem with duncan getting ahead on other factors. The top 4 is the relatively solidified group in my list.

#6 between shaq and Duncan for me. I could lean Duncan because of his consistency and better defense but I would never, ever draft him ahead of Shaq and thats just a simple truth. I don't believe any GM would, across history, even with hindsight. Duncan, as great as he is, had a lot of great rosters and perhaps the greatest coach ever, and was arguably not the MVP on the team for the latter titles.
With all of that, the spurs were never a dynasty in his ~20 year career. They were a consistent team but could be overpowered by better teams peaking at the right time, which tells me they weren't the best team of their era, simply "one of the best".
Shaq plus virtually any legitimate second scoring option will get you to the finals. Prime shaq was completely and utterly unstoppable en route to 3 titles. He and duncan on the court, theres no doubt shaq was clearly better. You put prime shaq in ANY era with a high level second option and they will steamroll to a dynasty. Says quite a lot because only MJ can also claim that (so far...we'll see with LeBron and Davis) If he were a little more focused throughout his career, i'd swap he and LeBron on the list.

Actually, yeah shaq for #6. I'll probably slot duncan at 7.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#23 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:36 pm

SeniorWalker wrote:#6 between shaq and Duncan for me. I could lean Duncan because of his consistency and better defense but I would never, ever draft him ahead of Shaq and thats just a simple truth. I don't believe any GM would, across history, even with hindsight.


Shaq would give me a few years of high peaks, lower lows and plenty of missed games before he left my franchise.
Duncan would give me 20 years of loyality, consistency and contending at the highest stage.

It's fair to have Shaq higher and to believe he was better player (although I disagree), but I'm sure a lot of GMs would prefer Duncan with hindsight. Even without it, Duncan was huge when he came to the league. He was the most proven 1st pick since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and he didn't disappoint expectations.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#24 » by TrueLAfan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:43 pm

#4 Bill Russell
#5 Tim Duncan


The Russell/Duncan debate interests me. A lot of the things I admire about Russell and a lot of the factors in his greatness transfer over to TD. TD also had coaching/front office consistency. He also was wildly successful as a team leader, and was a dominant force on the defensive end. TD had all that, plus an offensive advantage over Russell—and a longetivity push.

So why do I rate Russell higher if TD could do more and did for longer? Because, despite having a lot of similar advantages, Duncan didn’t get quite as significant of an end result (though it’s hard to argue with 5 titles). And I feel Duncan had, in general the stronger supporting cast—so that, even with the larger league, Russell’s dominance and impact was greater. (penbeast0 and Doctor MJ make the case much more eloquently than I do) In his last 12 years, he played over 96% of his team’s games and over 88% of possible minutes in those games.

And he was effective for every minute of it too. We don’t have advanced stats or analysis from the early 1960s. But one stat that we do have, imperfect as it is, stands out to me. If you look at DWS/48 for a player’s top 10 consecutive seasons, you’ll get some great players getting over .090 (Mutombo, Kareem, Rodman). And you’ve got a handful of players over .100—most of the players we think of as the super elite. Ben Wallace. Hakeem. Garnett. At the very top is Mr. Tim Duncan at .114.

Except for Bill Russell. He’s at .164. He’s on an island. He’s over 40% higher than any other player.

I am not saying that those numbers show something definitive. They can’t because ... well—they just can’t. For Russell, it's based on incomplete information from half a century ago . You won’t get absolutes or concrete data out of that.

But you will get a picture—and, in this case, the picture is extraordinary. And it happens to fit in with the facts around Russell and the Celtics. They didn’t win because of scoring or offensive efficiency. They won with defense. They won and won and won and won. And this particular metric says that Russell’s defense was far more important than any other player had or has been. And the results show it too.

For Kareem, there’s too much ancillary material that allows him to overtake Russell, at least for me. The longetivity. The offensive difference. The lack of continuity of coaching and front office that he overcame. The individual dominance—greater than Duncan’s, if not as great as Russell’s. Kareem had more, and it’s enough to push him ahead. Duncan has a bit less going for him than Kareem on the court—not a lot, but a little. And Duncan had some of Russell’s advantages too—and didn’t us them as well as Russ did (or at least didn’t get quite as much out of them). It’s small, but it’s enough for me. I rate them Kareem, Russell, TD … which gives me Bill Russell here.

#6 Hakeem Olajuwon

Where this will begin to get interesting and fun. The Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/KG/Wilt debate should be a good one.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#25 » by SeniorWalker » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:51 pm

70sFan wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:#6 between shaq and Duncan for me. I could lean Duncan because of his consistency and better defense but I would never, ever draft him ahead of Shaq and thats just a simple truth. I don't believe any GM would, across history, even with hindsight.


Shaq would give me a few years of high peaks, lower lows and plenty of missed games before he left my franchise.
Duncan would give me 20 years of loyality, consistency and contending at the highest stage.

It's fair to have Shaq higher and to believe he was better player (although I disagree), but I'm sure a lot of GMs would prefer Duncan with hindsight. Even without it, Duncan was huge when he came to the league. He was the most proven 1st pick since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and he didn't disappoint expectations.

This is completely fair. Shaq provides a lot of headaches and isnt the most loyal...and i do value loyalty, particularly for a GM perspective. If you want to assign 3 titles to each as the driving player, you could then look at duncans more consistent career and pick him. This is why i said i could be swayed in the 5-10 group, i have no problem seeing duncan over him whatsoever.

I just look at how dominant shaq made the lakers during his run and compare that to Duncan's prime run. Based on what i believe a greatest ever to be in concept, it tells me shaq was simply a greater player during his most prime and relevant years despite his many other shortcomings. The lakers were one of the greatest teams ever at his peak and thats with only one second star and lower level role players. I value that most and I cant look at myself in the mirror and actually say duncan was greater. They're on the same level and I just use my preference.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#26 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:00 pm

limbo wrote:You have to remember we're talking about an era where Wilt averaged from 30 to 50 ppg for half a decade and they still couldn't figure out a way to have an above league average offense, despite several different coaches and player turnover... That's the level of sophistication we're dealing with here...


Whoa hold on.

You're writing this as if from this viewpoint:

"Wilt was having 30 to 50 points per game of impact and the rest of the offense was so bad they still weren't above average!"

Not saying that that's actually your philosophy here, but you're talking as if "A good coach ought to be able to be able to make an elite offense if he's got a 30-50 point scorer on his team."

But that's not how things work. Wilt was a "30-50 point scorer" because the offense called for him to try to score on every possession. The team ORtg is team result that created. That tells us that the general sense of impact people have about Wilt's volume scoring was fundamentally wrong. That having an approach like they did really didn't result in anything that was that hard to guard against.

To be clear, I'm not saying it was fundamentally impossible to build a great offense where Wilt also volume scored, but we have ZERO evidence based on actual team accomplishment that letting Wilt shoot that much was a good idea.

All we know is that it was a really, really, really-better-than-any-idea-in-NBA-history, really a good idea to have Wilt stop shooting so much. Which means there was something wrong with it as it was actually executed.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#27 » by limbo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:00 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't think they had the mental faculties combined with the strategic foresight of their respective coaching staff.

Why not?

Like i said about Wilt. He didn't see anything wrong about the way he approached the game until he lost enough times and changed enough teams/coaches that it became sort of a last resort thing with him...

It was clear way before that point Wilt didn't have the mental faculties of Russell. Wilt was a Globetrotter and was often times more interested in proving the league/media wrong about certain aspects of his individual ability rather than identifying his teams strengths and weaknesses and looking how to best optimize his team's potential based on those...

So i don't find it strange at all that a guy who couldn't figure out how to lead a dominant offense for more than half a decade, despite being arguably the most physically superior player in NBA history in contrast to the league average player, also couldn't figure out how to optimize his defensive ability, especially since there's is a trade-off aspect of how good you can be both on offense and defense simultaneously.

Then you should credit for Russell being so far ahead of his times in terms of sophistication, BBIQ and right approach he had. These things don't become obsolete in later eras.


Which i do. Or do you think i credited Russell for his transcending scoring game, all-time great playmaking ability or incredible shooting range/efficiency?

RE: These things don't become obsolete in later eras.

Maybe so. I mean, there's only so many times one can 'invent' hot water, right? Still, i don't question whether Russell could have been at the forefront of some modern defensive breakthroughs if he played in today's day and age. If i did have a question it would be more along the lines of wondering if Russell was not be too big of an offensive liability for most teams to actually give him big time minutes.

These results are amazing, but they are not on peak Russell level.


None are. That's my point... However, you really aren't going to comment on the fact that Wilt managed to carry a -5.0 defense at 36 years of age being a little suspicious? Unless you think 36-year old Wilt had vastly more defensive ability and potential than Wilt in the 60's...

As far as Reed and Thurmond go, i don't know enough about their situations. I can only speculate Reed wasn't good enough in the first place and wanted to be more of an offensive star above prioritizing defense anyway.

I don't think that's the case with Reed, he was always more defensive minded player who was known for sacrificing his own numbers for team's benefit. I don't think Reed was any less capable than someone like Howard or Mourning.

Thurmond is the kind of player you could throw into any era and he'd become DPOY candidate year after year. Yet he never approached Russell's impact, even past prime Russell.


Which kind so speaks to the importance of the context you play in. Kevin Garnett didn't lead any dominant defensive teams in Minnesota, but was able to do so in Boston until he was 35-year old... Same player (even past his athletic prime), very different results. Same goes for Anthony Davis. Couldn't do anything on the Pelicans. Gets to the Lakers and it's a different story in his very first year...

You don't understand that from mathematical point of view being large outlier in smaller population is more impressive. Let's take a look at the best Duncan and Russell led defensive teams:

2004 Spurs: 94.1 DRtg, -8.8 rDRtg in 30 teams league
League average: 102.9
League average without Spurs team: 103.2
Spurs adjusted rDRtg: -9.1

1964 Celtics: 83.8 DRtg, -10.8 rDRtg in 9 teams league
League average: 94.6
League average without Celtics team: 96.0
Celtics adjusted rDRtg: -12.4

Celtics outlier value had significant weight in league average, much more significant than Duncan's Spurs.
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But isn't it easier to be an outlier in a smaller population?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#28 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm

1. Bill Russell - I see Russell as one of the GOATs, just with a few more question marks around his game than LeBron, MJ and Kareem. I can see why some people have pushed for Russell to go even higher. His success is unparalleled, he doesn't get enough credit for his individual accolades, his teams were great but not as dominant as some would have you believe and the competition in the 60s certainly wasn't bad.

2. Tim Duncan - Not quite as dominant as the players before him but his accolades and sustained success put him firmly in the discussion. He was the clear best player on 4 title winning teams, while he even has an argument for best player on the 2014 Spurs when he was already 37 years old. It's a shame the media downplays him because he wasn't a flashy player.

3. Wilt Chamberlain - It's going to get more challenging from here on out. I have Wilt, Bird, Magic and Shaq close together and I'm going to look at them closer when we get to #6 but my initial thought is to go with Wilt.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#29 » by limbo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Whoa hold on.

You're writing this as if from this viewpoint:

"Wilt was having 30 to 50 points per game of impact and the rest of the offense was so bad they still weren't above average!"


Not at all. The message i wanted to paint was more along the lines of; You have a guy on your team that can average 30-50 ppg on elite efficiency, has some passing acumen, and has the potential to anchor an all-time great defense - and somehow, you managed to put this exact guy on a team and have a below average offense AND defense in a 8-team league...

Now, i'm not interested in playing the blame game here. Maybe it's better to save that for when Wilt starts popping up more frequently in these discussions. But my immediate takeaway here is that this wouldn't have happened in a more sophisticated time period in basketball history... Wilt's potential was grossly mismanaged. And yes, i agree that a lot of that has to do with himself, which is why ultimately Russell (a significantly less talented offensive player) managed to look better and win a lot more titles during the same era essentially.

Not saying that that's actually your philosophy here, but you're talking as if "A good coach ought to be able to be able to make an elite offense if he's got a 30-50 point scorer on his team."


Hmm. When i look at the context of the league in the 60's, and the fact that Wilt was scoring well above league efficiency, then i would say yes, a good coach should have been able to take this guy and build an elite offense around him (which is also what happened once Hannum took the Sixers). Obviously that would not come in the form of Wilt averaging 50 points, which was part of the issue.

But that's not how things work. Wilt was a "30-50 point scorer" because the offense called for him to try to score on every possession. The team ORtg is team result that created. That tells us that the general sense of impact people have about Wilt's volume scoring was fundamentally wrong. That having an approach like they did really didn't result in anything that was that hard to guard against.


I agree. The issue was never Wilt's offensive talent, but the brand of basketball he choose to play for whatever reason.

To be clear, I'm not saying it was fundamentally impossible to build a great offense where Wilt also volume scored, but we have ZERO evidence based on actual team accomplishment that letting Wilt shoot that much was a good idea.


My post didn't have any issue regarding this. My point about Wilt was that he had the potential ability to lead elite offenses and ATG defenses, as he has shown flashes of doing both during various stages of his career. Basically, the way i see it, the major reason why there was such a big gulf in defensive dominance between Wilt and Russell throughout most of the 60's wasn't because Russell was 5x better defensively than Wilt in terms of ability, but rather because they were polar opposites in terms of how they approached the game. And that's definitely kudos to Russell. Russell had the foresight, intelligence and humility to take on a basic role offensively and focus most his energy in the defensive end. Wilt didn't have those things and it hurt him. Wilt would've benefited massively from having a stronger coaching personality/staff earlier in his career but didn't have that luck either, maybe a lot of it also due to his own unwillingness to change.

Basically the only other guy in the 60's that had the potential to replicate something like Russell in terms of historical defensive dominance failed to due so because he got in his own way... Some people might say Thurmond and Willis Reed also had the potential to do it, but i disagree. Bottom line is that era of basketball is long gone, so we can only speculate what someone like Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, KG would've been able to do defensively in that early/mid 60's environment...
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#30 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:06 pm

Votes
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamerlain
3. Tim Duncan


Russell played 13 seasons, from 56 to 69.

In the year before Bill Russell joined, Boston was 39-33. 0.72 SRS. Lost to the Syracuse Nationals in the 1st round of the playoffs 2-1.

Among 8 teams, Boston was a below average defensive team with a 91.7 DRTG (average was 90.3).

Bill Russell's 1st year:
44-28 W-L
4.78 SRS (best in the league)
Best defensive team at 84 DRTG.
They clearly won with their defense, since their ORTG was still below average.
They were eventually champions. They swept the Syracuse Natioanls and won 4-3 in the finals against against the St. Louis Hawks.
Bill Russsell put up 19 PTS 32 REBS 3 ASSTS in that game 7.
Notice in this season Tom Heinsohn also entered the team, and he had a good argument for FMVP.

1st time Russell was a champion the cast was
Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman
Bob Cousy
Bill Russell
Frank Ramsey
Jim Loscutoff

Last championship
In 69 - last Bill Russell season
89.1 DRTG - Average at 95.5
93.8 ORTG - Average at 95.5
48-34 W-L (4th seed)
5.35 SRS (2nd best in the league)
Defeated the Lakers in 7 games in the finals.

Cast
Havlicek
Bill Russell
Em Bryant
Sam Jones
Bailey Howell
Siegfried
Don Nelson

The only common player... Bill Russell

1970 Celtics - 1st year without Bill Russell
34-48
-1.6 SRS
Missed the playoffs
98.9 DRTG - Average 99 -
Cast:
Havlicek
Em Bryant
Don Nelson
Sigried
Bailey Howell

Left:
Sam Jones
Bill Russell



Bill Russell's era
First in DRTG 12 seasons, 1 season they were 2nd
Almost always a below average team ORTG wise
11 rings
5 times MVP
10 times top 5 in MVP voting
9 times top 3

Finals MVP:
1957 - Tom Heinsohn
1958 - Boston lost. Bob Pettit likely winner.
1959 - Tom Heinsohn
1960 - 16.7 PPG (4th) 24.9 RPG (1st) 3 APG (2nd) 47.1 FG% (2nd) - LIKELY
1961 - 17.6 PPG (3rd) 28.8 RPG (1st) 4.4 APG (2nd) 42.9 FG% - LIKELY
1962 - 22.9 PPG (1st) 27 RPG (1st) 5.7 APG (2nd) 54.3 FG% (1st) - LOCK
1963 - 20 PPG(3rd) 26 RPG(1st) 5.3 APG (2nd) 46.7 FG% - LOCK
1964 - 11.2 PPG (4th) 25.2 RPG (1st) 5 APG (2nd) 38.6 FG% - Most likely Sam Jones at 21.2 PPG 4.4 RPG 2.8 APG would have won it.
1965 - 17.8 PPG (3rd) 25 RPG (1st) 5.8 APG (2nd) 70.2 FG% (1st) - LOCK
1966 - 23.6 PPG (1st) 24.3 RPG (1st) 3.7 APG (2nd) 53.8 FG% (1st) - LOCK
1968 - 17.3 PPG 21.8 RPG 5.7 APG LIKELY --- 27.3 PPG 8.7 RPG 6.7 APG by Havlicek
1969 - Jerry West

Maybe 6 to 7 finals MVPs, being the player with the most accodales.

Of course if we take into account his not so great scoring ability there is the argument for others. But impact wise Russell's defense and intangibles made him the greatest winner in NBA history.

Gotta take that into account when evaluating. I think he has a case for GOAT so I think it's fair he is in the top 4/5 of the NBA.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#31 » by Heej » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:07 pm

Just wanted to drop in and say Elgee mentioned this thread on his last podcast. Carry on, gents :D
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#32 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 pm

Just quick note - 1962 Warriors were above average both offensively and defensively ;)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#33 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:19 pm

LA Bird wrote:TLDR:
1. There is little evidence of Russell having by far the most in-era impact. Defensive impact? Yes. Overall two way impact? No.
2. Some players have led postseason offenses comparable in dominance to Russell's defenses without the trade-off on the other end of the floor. This means they were overall a more dominant two-way team than the Russell Celtics.
3. Celtics were a below average offense. Russell himself was not a particularly great offensive player and wouldn't be one today.
4. Boston won 11 rings but considering the playoffs format and quality of competition, they weren't any more dominant than teams led by other all time greats.

And some questions for anyone voting Russell over Duncan:

1. Why do you see the gap on defense as being larger than the gap on offense? For instance, drza referenced ElGee's postseason adjusted net ratings in support of Russell in the last round. He pointed out that the defense of the Russell Celtics over his career (-7.7) were the best ever and much stronger than the Duncan Spurs (-5.1). At face value, that is a 2.6 defensive advantage for Russell which is indeed impressive. But basketball is a two way game and on offense, the Duncan Spurs (+3.7) were ahead of the Russell Celtics (-1.4) by an even larger degree. That 5.1 offensive advantage for Duncan is almost twice the advantage Russell's team had on defense. What is the justification for valuing the Celtics's 2.6 defensive advantage more than the Spurs's 5.1 offensive advantage?

2. How do you rank the individual seasons of Duncan and Russell from best to worst? Peak 2003 Duncan has placed 2 spots higher than Russell in each of the peaks project by clear margins in votes and he has another season in 2002 on the same peak level. Duncan also has better longevity, with a 16th season that many posters recently argued to be better than peak Dwight Howard in the All NBA project. The only argument left for Russell to have a better career despite weaker peak and longevity is that he had a much better average 'prime' but is a season like 67 Russell really much better than 06 Duncan? Or 60 Russell vs 05 Duncan?

3. If your argument for Russell is that he anchored the GOAT dynasty, what are your thoughts on the points raised in this article:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bill-russells-celtics-were-great-tim-duncans-spurs-have-been-better/
In particular, this graph of the greatest dynasties by cumulative ELO above average which shows the Duncan Spurs performing at a higher level and for a much longer period? Note that the article came out in 2015 so the Duncan Spurs total is closer to 290k at the end of his career.


So first thing I'll say is that you bring up some good points and I completely understand why folks would just not see Russell as overall being more than guys who were offensive power houses.

The overarching issue I'd see things differently from you on is that you're trying to compare dominance between very different eras and concluding that the team that reliably won the championship more frequently in any team in history wasn't all that dominant. To me those 11 titles in 13 years is basically dominance defined. You can argue it's less of an accomplishment because of lesser competition, but unless you want to focus on the idea of luck, they were more reliably winning the focal point of the season than anyone else has.

The luck is a worthwhile thing to talk about, but before I go there I think I need to address the more obvious question:

What is the effect of expansion on things like W-L dominance, SRS, and ELO?

Here I'd say the best thing to look at in basketball is quite possible the best thing to look at in all of sports:

The early '70s saw far more extreme of those type of numbers than we saw before.

In '71-72 for example, the Chicago Bulls had an SRS of 7.91, which the Russell Celtics only surpassed twice. Do we really think that that Bulls team, had they existed in the '60s and sustained themselves all decade, would have been the dominant dynasty of the '60s over the Celtics? Frankly if so, then maybe we should be talking about Bob Love right now as the guy who was secretly a GOAT. ;)

On to the notion of luck. Let's first note a couple things:

1. For the first 9 years in Russell's career, they had the best record in the league, and they won 8 titles. There were some close playoffs and the Celtics could have won less than 8 titles in that time, but by and large everyone saw the Celtics as clearly the best team in pretty much every moment of every season.

2. In Russell's final 4 seasons, the Celtics never had the best record in the league. Yet they won 3 more championships and were 5-1 against teams with better records than themselves. I don't think this was mostly about luck. I think you're talking about an aging team caring less about the regular season saving themselves up for tough battles in the playoffs.

Re: comparing all of each player's seasons against each other's. Y'know this isn't really my thing. I tend to feel like doing this makes me focus on the quirks of a given season rather than the player as a whole.

I will say that I'd rank Russell's best season ('64 or '65) ahead of Duncan's ('03). I've already described how I see Russell's years - a defense that was just absurdly dominant. Literally in '64 the gap between the Celtics and the 3rd best defense in the league was bigger than the gap between the best and worst offenses. When defensive variance is that much greater than offensive variance, defense is going to dictate the champions.

What about Duncan?

Well, I remember the '03 playoffs. And I remember the feeling that I and everyone else had was that no one really felt like a worthy champion. The Spurs were a team that lost 2 games to every single opponent and it didn't so much feel like they were playing against opponents above their head but that the Spurs were a team that wasn't really ready to perform at their best when it really mattered.

Now Duncan supporters will say "Yes, his supporting cast was awful that year!" and hyperbole aside they have a point. It was easily the weakest supporting cast he'd win a title with.

But the Spurs also had HCA over the entire league. This wasn't a plucky upstart that had an amazing playoffs. This was a team that many though would win the title going into the playoffs, and in the playoffs, they felt unworthy. They did not look like a 60-22 team much of the time.

Additionally, it's weird to me that people see Duncan as "successful volume scorer" and tend to not let Garnett in that same tier. In '03 with this "bad supporting cast", Duncan scored less than 25ppg in those playoffs. I'm not saying Duncan scored too little just as I'm not saying he scored too much, but what I can say is that team's offense felt clunky and spotty all playoffs in a way it just wouldn't have if Duncan were doing a 35ppg type thing. The Spurs that year faced a variety of moments they seemed unprepared for, and when they hit those moments, every single Spur seemed pretty flummoxed.

It's to their credit they figured things out of course, but to me they felt like a lot of first time champions do. A bit shaky. A bit yip-prone. They figured it out together and would go on to have extraordinary success together over the next decade plus, but I'm honestly not all that sure I'd say Duncan in '03 was him at his career peak. I think he learned a hell of a lot that year, and would go on to keep learning a lot for at least the next few years.

I think our "lone star" based thinking has tended to get things backwards based on the idea that the various Spurs champion teams must have been roughly comparable in what they achieved and since 2003 had the weakest supporting cast and Duncan had his gaudiest numbers, this must have been him at his best. In reality that '03 Spurs team got really lucky in their competition and had they not, then they don't win the title. If the Lakers are themselves, they destroy the Spurs. If the Mavs had a bit more seasoning, and bit better sense of how close they were to something that would revolutionize the sport, they beat the Spurs. If the Spurs had played a team an actual elite team in the finals, maybe that teams wins. And then there's the matter that the Spurs lost two games and got held to under 100 ORtg against a Suns team that was not remotely a serious team.

To end:

I'm sorry whenever I make these posts that are so negative about a guy, particularly when it's a guy like Duncan that I actually think a lot of folks underrate. I think Duncan had an amazing career, I have a ton of respect for him, and I respect if others here rate him over Russell.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#34 » by Bidofo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:32 pm

Odinn21 wrote:1971 Abdul-Jabbar was definitely tier 1. His regular season production was there. And his postseason numbers can look down a notch but his impact was also there.

Odinn21 wrote:What puts 2004-2006 Duncan on there but not 1972 Abdul-Jabbar? It looks inconsistent. All of those Duncan seasons had issues. In all 3, he did suffer from an injury and he didn't put out a complete season like he did in 2007. Abdul-Jabbar had one of the greatest regular season performances in 1972 and even though his performance was not entirely great, he played 2 of the greatest low post defenders ever in a single coverage era. This is more and better than what one can say about 2004 and 2006 Duncan.

Truth be told, I really shouldn't have included KAJ in the tiers. His placing was in comparison to Jordan and James, so when a season like 71 KAJ doesn't make tier 1, it's because its going up against off stiff competition from not only KAJ but the other two legends. I transposed his placing to the #3 thread, but it doesn't make the same amount of sense vs Russell/Duncan. That's the reason why I also got rid of the tier names as well, I just didn't apply the same logic to the actual seasons lol. I'll be more careful there.
Odinn21 wrote:Also looks like you forgot about 1981 for Abdul-Jabbar. It's either tier 2 or tier 3 season. I'd say tier 2.

Yea that was a transposition error. He was in tier 3 in the #1 thread.
Odinn21 wrote:Assuming those are ranks within tiers, I can't see a single reason to pick 2011 Duncan over any other version than 2016 version. His knees were shot, he didn't have any mobility, his offense wasn't quite there due to mobility issues.
In 2012, when the team was stuck on offense and turned to him for points, he was still a 21/11/2 player on .540 fg (the last 3 games against the Thunder). Similarly in 2015, 21/12/3 player on .647 fg (the last 4 games against the Clippers). 2011 Duncan did not have that.

To be quite honest...that was a complete brain fart. I even remember specifically telling myself as I was constructing the tiers to bring up how bad that 2011 season and how embarrassing of a performance/loss it was. I originally wanted to talk about how as Duncan got older and gave the keys to the offense to Parker/Ginobili that you didn't quite see the efficiency you would want from him, and 2011 was going to be part of that as well...but I rushed it and the season looks very out of place :banghead: .

Generally speaking, as you go further down the tiers, the ranking of a player's seasons within the tier matters less. That's partly why 09-12 were just rattled off one after another, though ofc I forgot how significantly bad 2011 Duncan was.

Odinn21 wrote:Lastly, I'd like to remind that having 15+ quality seasons in the '00s and the '60s and the '80s were quite different. Apparently Russell lose out against Duncan because he didn't provide that many quality seasons. But the scale should be different for these players because their times were different.

Yea I try to keep that in mind. All a part of the mental calculus. I agree with the premise, but do you have any data/research about the difference in average longevity between stars of then and stars of now? I feel like I remember reading something like that on RGM but I forget.

Worth noting that up to tier 4, it's 12 seasons of Russell vs. 14 seasons of Duncan (unincluding 11 Duncan), and then 2 more "decent" value seasons of Duncan in tier 5 (14+15 Duncan). So I'd say he still has a longevity edge, especially since Duncan is kind of an outlier in his own time as well.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#35 » by Owly » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:48 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:In the year before Bill Russell joined, Boston was 39-33. 0.72 SRS. Lost to the Syracuse Nationals in the 1st round of the playoffs 2-1.

Among 8 teams, Boston was a below average defensive team with a 91.7 DRTG (average was 90.3).

Bill Russell's 1st year:
44-28 W-L
4.78 SRS (best in the league)
Best defensive team at 84 DRTG.
They clearly won with their defense, since their ORTG was still below average.
They were eventually champions. They swept the Syracuse Natioanls and won 4-3 in the finals against against the St. Louis Hawks.
Bill Russsell put up 19 PTS 32 REBS 3 ASSTS in that game 7.
Notice in this season Tom Heinsohn also entered the team, and he had a good argument for FMVP.

1st time Russell was a champion the cast was
Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman
Bob Cousy
Bill Russell
Frank Ramsey
Jim Loscutoff

It's worth noting that the Celtics got off to a 16-8 (league leading) start sans Russell that year. Though their win percentage decreased slightly their points differential was better with Russell but not massively so (4.541666667 without, 5.770833333 with). They added Ramsey shortly after adding Russell (about a month after, they did well for that spell, both otoh). If you take that start as something like legit (and if you consider Ramsey an upgrade on the wings) it's quite a bit higher baseline.

This doesn't mean Russell wasn't generally a high impact player, but this is worth noting with regard to that first year.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#36 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:51 pm

LA Bird wrote:Reposting my Russell post in case anybody missed it last time:

Spoiler:
1. One way dominance and two way value

Arguments that Russell was by far the most impactful player in history generally rely on an inaccurate definition of how a player can impact the game. The idea usually goes something like this:

• Celtics had the best relative DRtg in NBA history by far
• Russell had the highest DWS seasons in NBA history by far (this used to be a popular argument back in the days)
• No team in history have a better relative ORtg than the Celtics relative DRtg (in regular season at least)
• Celtics DRtg matched Russell's career arc and he was the only player from the start to the end of the dynasty
• No player in history have been as dominant on offense as Russell was on defense and therefore he is the GOAT.

I agree Russell dominated on defense more than anyone else in NBA history but focusing on one end of the floor alone does not prove he had more total impact than all other players. A player's value is not the maximum of either offense or defense but the summation of both offense and defense. Instead of looking only at the Celtics's relative DRtg, why not include relative ORtg as well for the team's total net rating? Instead of looking only at Russell's DWS, why not his OWS and total WS? If we use Boston's dominant defense to showcase Russell's defensive impact, why do we overlook the fact that their consistently below average offense was reducing their overall performance? Everybody knows about the poor defense of Nash-led offenses so why should we ignore the poor offense of Russell-led defenses when discussing his overall impact? The 64 Celtics have the best rDRtg in NBA history but they had a league worst relative ORtg of -4.5. That is as bad as the relative DRtg of the 04 Mavs, the team with the best rORtg in NBA history, yet only one of these teams is panned for their poor play on one end of the floor. When a team is giving up so many points on one end of the floor, you can't just ignore their weakness and exclusively focus on the one end of the floor that they were dominant in and credit the superstar for it. A 7 SRS team with -4 offense, -11 defense or +11 offense, +4 defense is not better than a 10 SRS team with +5 offense, -5 defense. Russell's Celtics were a one way team whereas the very best teams in NBA history by SRS were elite on both ends of the floor. They may not be as good on any one end of the floor as the Celtics defense but they were an overall better team when looking at both offense and defense.

Boston had the best relative DRtg in history but not when it comes to overall net rating. Russell had the highest DWS seasons in history but not when it comes to overall WS. Unless one makes the mistake of defining a player's overall value as only one way rather than two way impact, it is very difficult to argue that Russell was far more dominant relative to his era than anyone else. In fact, Russell is behind LeBron, Jordan, Magic and several others in WOWYR, the best in-era impact metric we have across NBA history. People talk about Russell immediately transforming the Celtics defense when he entered the league but when you consider their offensive decline as well, the Celtics's overall team improvement by SRS in his rookie season was less than that of LeBron or Jordan's in their rookie seasons. The 57 Celtics were also already a much better team than the 56 Celtics even without Russell so the WOWY impact he had that season was actually not that large. Here are some numbers I posted in the peak project on Russell's impact during his rookie season in comparison to Mikan's final season just the year prior:

LA Bird wrote:1956 Lakers and Mikan
With (37G): +2.22 MOV
Without (35G): -4.17 MOV
Difference: +6.39 MOV

1957 Celtics and Russell
With (48G): +6.02 MOV
Without (24G): +4.54 MOV
Difference: +1.48 MOV


And here are some numbers by colts18 in an old thread on Russell's WOWY impact over his entire career:

colts18 wrote:Bill Russell missed 52 games in his career, here is how his team did without him.

26-26 W-L
1.54 MOV, 0.70 SRS
114.31 PPG against opponent D of 108.63 (+5.67)
112.77 PPG allowed against average O of 107.04 (+5.73)

So the Celtics offense was very much above average without Russell. In fact most years that offense would be at the top. The same story for the defense except the opposite. Without Russell, they are around the worst defense of that era.

Now here is how did in comparison to weighted average of the 57-69 Celtics:

Without Russell vs. overall Celtics:
0.70 SRS vs. 5.38 SRS (-4.68 SRS)

114.31 PPG vs. 110.71 PPG (+3.59)

112.77 PPG allowed vs. 104.77 PPG (-8.0)

So the offense was clearly much better without Russell which jives with my opinion that he is a net negative on offense, but Russell's impact on defense was clearly higher. That minus 8 PPG shows that Russell was the best defender of that era by a clear margin.


There are some limitations with this WOWY analysis because of the lack of data on pace before the 70s but the point still stands that Russell didn't have by far the greatest impact overall of all time. We can make Russell's numbers look better with a reduced prime sample but even then, LeBron, Robinson, Walton and Jordan have seen their teams decline more by SRS than the Celtics did without Russell (note: removing Russell's rookie season means we are looking at only around 2 missed games per season for his career). Russell's Celtics teams had the GOAT defenses but they never reached the heights that the greatest two way team like the Jordan Bulls or Curry Warriors did because of their consistently negative offense. The same goes for Russell individually, where his negative offense meant he wasn't necessarily the most impactful player overall despite being the most impactful defensive player. A player's value depends on both offense and defense and as such, focusing on only one end of the floor alone exaggerates how impactful Russell was in comparison to all time great two way players who contributed on both ends. It is not impossible for a one way player to be the GOAT but Russell never reached that level of dominance IMO.

2. The playoffs and relative ORtgs

I think most of us can agree that Russell had the most defensive impact of any player ever, relative to his own era. However, as we have seen from part 1, having the GOAT in-era impact is more than just having the most impact on one end of the floor. Another element to that discussion is whether there are any players who were as impactful on offense as Russell was on defense. If we are looking at the regular season, that answer is a clear no. However, that changes if we look at the playoffs where offensive stars can sometimes elevate their team more than defensive stars. For example, if we compare Russell and Magic, the only other one way player in the top 10, these are their team results over their best years.

Regular season
60-65 Russell: -2.54 Offense, -8.52 Defense, +5.98 Net
85-90 Magic: +6.12 Offense, -1.17 Defense, 7.29 Net

Playoffs
60-65 Russell: -2.81 Offense, -9.58 Defense, +6.77 Net
85-90 Magic: +8.97 Offense, -0.24 Defense, +9.22 Net

No player has come close to leading an offensive dynasty comparable to the defense of Russell's Celtics in the regular season but this advantage of Russell's is small when it comes to the postseason. Besides Magic, Shaq and LeBron led offenses have also been around +9 or more over a multi-year period in the playoffs. And importantly, none of these offense-first teams led by LeBron / Magic / Shaq come with the issue of being a huge negative on the other end of the floor like the Celtics were. Boston need a large lead in one way dominance to overcome the deadweight of a negative team offense but they weren't that dominant historically on defense relative to the greatest postseason offenses.

3. Russell's offense

An issue I find with Russell arguments is that he is often not only not penalized for the Celtics's poor offense, he is almost rewarded for it as though it is even more impressive that their defense was dominant enough to overcome the negative offense. Just because the Celtics won overwhelmingly with their defense does not mean Russell gets all the credit for the defense while his supporting cast is regarded poorly because of the mediocre offense. Offense and defense are two sides of the same coin. If people are going to credit Russell as being a point center through which Boston ran their offense, why shouldn't we consider the team's relative ORtg as a measure of his offensive impact? After all, every argument for Russell's GOAT defense starts with his team's relative DRtg.

An argument that is often raised in favor of Russell on offense is that he could turn defense into offense by blocking a shot and tipping it to his teammates to start the fastbreak for easy buckets. If that was the case and the Celtics were getting so many high efficiency transition opportunities, how were they still consistently a subpar offense under Russell? Either:
a) They weren't actually any good in transition. I personally find this to be unlikely since Boston had a great fast paced offense with Cousy before Russell arrived, or
b) They had a garbage half-court offense that negated the value of their transition offense
If the situation was a), what does that say about the (lack of) offensive value that Russell generated with all these transition opportunities? And if the situation was b), what does that say about Russell's value as a high post passing center in the half court? No matter the justification, the Celtics were a poor offense. It doesn't make sense to credit Russell for his role on the offense and the cliche 'doing all the little things to help his team win that don't show up in the stat sheet' while overlooking the fact that the end result was a consistently negative offense that took away from the greatness of their defense.

Everything up to this point has been in-era with no consideration for Russell's value over different eras. Sometimes though, Russell supporters would argue that he could develop more offensive skills in a later, more offensive-oriented league if that is what was required of him to win. I think this is wishful thinking. Russell's career FT% is lower than Dwight Howard's. He came into the league among the leaders in FG% but stagnated as the NBA around him improved and he was among the worst starting centers in both scoring volume and efficiency for the second half of his career. Russell ranked highly in assists per game especially later in his career but he wasn't anywhere close to Jokic or elite passers like Walton, Divac and others. Numbers aside, even Mikan who came before him looks to be a more skilled passer from the limited footage I have seen:



Russell is a high IQ, selfless team player but he is still bound by his limited offensive skillset. He grew up in an era where bigs had the green light to do whatever they want on offense and if he couldn't develop some scoring skills then, why would he suddenly be able to be become a better offensive player today when perimeter guys are given more offensive primacy? If Russell's career FT% was something like 76%, you could maybe argue he would develop a nice perimeter game today. But it's not. He shot 56% from the line. Unless there are other centers who shoot that poorly on FTs and has a good jumper from mid range or 3pt line, Russell is not likely going to be a much better shooter today than who he was in his own days.

4. Winning

Some Russell fans may just skip all of the above and go to the rings argument. After all, it is simple and foolproof. If you play the game to win and Russell won more than anyone, any weaknesses from him or the Celtics can be dismissed as an irrelevant byproduct. I personally disagree with this argument. The Celtics were pushed to close Game 7s far too often during their dynasty by relatively weak teams and many of those final posessions came down to clutch shots which had little to do with Russell himself. The fact that a championship run only required two series wins for most of his career also helped decrease the chance of an upset. They still won in the end but in comparison to teams led by other all time greats, the 11 rings overstate how dominant the Russell Celtics were. For example, here is a combined graph of the ELO ratings of the teams of Magic, Russell, Duncan, Bird, Jordan, LeBron and Curry:

Image

The Duncan Spurs played at a higher level for longer. The Jordan Bulls and Curry Warriors peak were shorter but far higher. Bird's Celtics were just as good as Russell's Celtics but won less because they had to compete against another all time great team in the Showtime Lakers. LeBron teams's ELO fluctuated widely in some years because the metric is not designed for players changing teams but they have hovered around the same level for most of his prime too. One thing you can say about the Russell Celtics is that they were very consistent but if you look at the ELO of all the other title teams by these superstars, every single one except the 88 Lakers were higher than Russell's best championship teams. The Celtics were a very good but not otherworldly dominant team and just kept on winning because teams largely stayed the same year in year out due to the lack of player movement

TLDR:
1. There is little evidence of Russell having by far the most in-era impact. Defensive impact? Yes. Overall two way impact? No.
2. Some players have led postseason offenses comparable in dominance to Russell's defenses without the trade-off on the other end of the floor. This means they were overall a more dominant two-way team than the Russell Celtics.
3. Celtics were a below average offense. Russell himself was not a particularly great offensive player and wouldn't be one today.
4. Boston won 11 rings but considering the playoffs format and quality of competition, they weren't any more dominant than teams led by other all time greats.

And some questions for anyone voting Russell over Duncan:

1. Why do you see the gap on defense as being larger than the gap on offense? For instance, drza referenced ElGee's postseason adjusted net ratings in support of Russell in the last round. He pointed out that the defense of the Russell Celtics over his career (-7.7) were the best ever and much stronger than the Duncan Spurs (-5.1). At face value, that is a 2.6 defensive advantage for Russell which is indeed impressive. But basketball is a two way game and on offense, the Duncan Spurs (+3.7) were ahead of the Russell Celtics (-1.4) by an even larger degree. That 5.1 offensive advantage for Duncan is almost twice the advantage Russell's team had on defense. What is the justification for valuing the Celtics's 2.6 defensive advantage more than the Spurs's 5.1 offensive advantage?

2. How do you rank the individual seasons of Duncan and Russell from best to worst? Peak 2003 Duncan has placed 2 spots higher than Russell in each of the peaks project by clear margins in votes and he has another season in 2002 on the same peak level. Duncan also has better longevity, with a 16th season that many posters recently argued to be better than peak Dwight Howard in the All NBA project. The only argument left for Russell to have a better career despite weaker peak and longevity is that he had a much better average 'prime' but is a season like 67 Russell really much better than 06 Duncan? Or 60 Russell vs 05 Duncan?

3. If your argument for Russell is that he anchored the GOAT dynasty, what are your thoughts on the points raised in this article:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bill-russells-celtics-were-great-tim-duncans-spurs-have-been-better/
In particular, this graph of the greatest dynasties by cumulative ELO above average which shows the Duncan Spurs performing at a higher level and for a much longer period? Note that the article came out in 2015 so the Duncan Spurs total is closer to 290k at the end of his career.
Image

I started writing up my vote with Russell next followed by Duncan, then started writing about it and prefaced my vote for Russell with a bunch of ways I thought Duncan was better and ended up asking myself why I'm going with Russell. Your questions reflect my struggles and then some. May have to reconsider.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#37 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:02 pm

limbo wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Whoa hold on.

You're writing this as if from this viewpoint:

"Wilt was having 30 to 50 points per game of impact and the rest of the offense was so bad they still weren't above average!"


Not at all. The message i wanted to paint was more along the lines of; You have a guy on your team that can average 30-50 ppg on elite efficiency, has some passing acumen, and has the potential to anchor an all-time great defense - and somehow, you managed to put this exact guy on a team and have a below average offense AND defense in a 8-team league...

Now, i'm not interested in playing the blame game here. Maybe it's better to save that for when Wilt starts popping up more frequently in these discussions. But my immediate takeaway here is that this wouldn't have happened in a more sophisticated time period in basketball history... Wilt's potential was grossly mismanaged. And yes, i agree that a lot of that has to do with himself, which is why ultimately Russell (a significantly less talented offensive player) managed to look better and win a lot more titles during the same era essentially.


Eh, you're saying you aren't coming from the perspective I'm talking about but you still to me seem like you are.

"can average 30-50 ppg on elite efficiency, has some passing acumen". You're starting by giving Wilt credit for great scoring and passing and asking "So what was the problem?" And I'm saying that Wilt scoring at the volume he did was built on a scheme that led to mediocre team offense. The end.

Yes, you can argue that in a different scheme maybe he'd be able to put up similar numbers with an elite ORtg, but I strenuously object to what you're seeing as a proof of concept. The opposing defense's goal is to keep their DRtg low, not keep an individual player from getting numbers.

On "passing acumen" specifically, as I always said with Kobe: My evaluation of your passing is not based on you proving you can make a pass to prove a point, and it's also not based on teams leading your teammates open for passes because they know you've called your own number that vast majority of the time. It's based on your ability to make the right play to make the offense be as strong as possible.

And in Wilt's case we just have clear evidence that he needed more direction than that. If he hadn't, then Hannum doesn't change things up in '66-67, simple as that.

Seems to me you're asking "There had to be a way to make use of Wilt's scoring and passing more optimally", and to that I'd say I think we saw in that year with Hannum. That IS what it looked like. Why did Wilt need to drop his scoring so much to make that work? I mean, I think it's clear that Hannum wasn't telling him to allocate his shot rate. When Wilt was actually looking to feed his teammates, he ended up scoring a lot less. When Wilt was looking to score all the time, his teammates looked like trash.

Could a better scheme be implemented today? Quite possibly, but I think the rule is clearly that you can't overload Wilt with complexity. He functions best as a robot. Get him to focus on passing or rebounding and he'll be a major net positive for you. Get him to focus on scoring and he won't. Try to make him balance and you just won't get it.

Re: below average defense. I mean, c'mon. When teams go from good to bad to good on defense from year to the next, isn't the obvious question to ask whether there was some slacking off? Guys who don't pride themselves on every-game-defense have always slacked on defense, and Wilt's story emphasizes that more than most.

Remember the story of not letting rookie star Bellamy get a bucket in the first half against Wilt? Anyone wonder why Wilt didn't do that more? It's because he wasn't motivated to do so. He was motivated by what was glamorous. He could for various runs be motivated to "show what he could do" on defense, but the goal was to get noticed rather than to give his all.

Suffice to say, modern coaching hasn't prevented guys from slacking on D.

limbo wrote:
Not saying that that's actually your philosophy here, but you're talking as if "A good coach ought to be able to be able to make an elite offense if he's got a 30-50 point scorer on his team."


Hmm. When i look at the context of the league in the 60's, and the fact that Wilt was scoring well above league efficiency, then i would say yes, a good coach should have been able to take this guy and build an elite offense around him (which is also what happened once Hannum took the Sixers). Obviously that would not come in the form of Wilt averaging 50 points, which was part of the issue. "


As stated in earlier threads, for that offense to work Wilt had to become the #5 scoring option in the starting line up, and you're describing him as if by category as a scorer. That's the problem I have.

I think there's a tendency to essentially evaluate Wilt's scoring based on the volume/efficiency and to just chalk up his ineffectiveness in that role as "the coach's fault", hence asserting that Wilt ought to be expected to be able to put up an impact as big as the volume/efficiency would have you believe if he just had a better coach. But when the player in question is getting his numbers precisely because the offensive system has a crippling flaw, those numbers are not the right way to peg the quality of his contributions.

I'd bring up Dantley. If you want to go by volume/efficiency, you should rate him as better than Jordan. But nobody does this. They don't do this really because of the fact that as time has progressed Dantley's name has largely disappeared from GOAT and GOAT adjacent conversation. By and large, people don't actually make the argument that there was something problematic about Dantley's scoring, it's just taken for granted and he's not brought up.

Wilt should be in the same boat as a scorer as Dantley - probably worse - and yet I detect an inertia where even folks who can acknowledge his faults still say "that volume/efficiency tho" as if he couldn't actually be doing anything wrong while hunting for his shots that would render his teammates useless when in fact nothing is easier to imagine. We all know what it looks like when a guy stands out of the way doing nothing for an entire offensive possession and we all know what it looks like when a guy who hasn't had to make a decision on the court all year all of a sudden chokes when the ball pops over to him at the wrong time.

That's to say nothing of things like turnover issues and the like. The bottom line is that the 76ers in '66-67 don't become an awesome offensive team if Wilt's teammates don't come to life and perform better despite having more defensive attention though their way. Their success to me tells us the essence of why this will always be a team game first and foremost.

limbo wrote:
But that's not how things work. Wilt was a "30-50 point scorer" because the offense called for him to try to score on every possession. The team ORtg is team result that created. That tells us that the general sense of impact people have about Wilt's volume scoring was fundamentally wrong. That having an approach like they did really didn't result in anything that was that hard to guard against.


I agree. The issue was never Wilt's offensive talent, but the brand of basketball he choose to play for whatever reason.


I mean, people with big basketball brains play smart basketball. Wilt wasn't choosing to play dumb basketball on a lark. Wilt just didn't have the same feel for the game as a Russell or an Oscar or a West.

People sometimes say that if Wilt had been in official volleyball competitions he'd have been the GOAT in the sport. I believe it. I think he was far better suited to sports with less complicated decision making.

limbo wrote:
To be clear, I'm not saying it was fundamentally impossible to build a great offense where Wilt also volume scored, but we have ZERO evidence based on actual team accomplishment that letting Wilt shoot that much was a good idea.


My post didn't have any issue regarding this. My point about Wilt was that he had the potential ability to lead elite offenses and ATG defenses, as he has shown flashes of doing both during various stages of his career. Basically, the way i see it, the major reason why there was such a big gulf in defensive dominance between Wilt and Russell throughout most of the 60's wasn't because Russell was 5x better defensively than Wilt in terms of ability, but rather because they were polar opposites in terms of how they approached the game. And that's definitely kudos to Russell. Russell had the foresight, intelligence and humility to take on a basic role offensively and focus most his energy in the defensive end. Wilt didn't have those things and it hurt him. Wilt would've benefited massively from having a stronger coaching personality/staff earlier in his career but didn't have that luck either, maybe a lot of it also due to his own unwillingness to change.

Basically the only other guy in the 60's that had the potential to replicate something like Russell in terms of historical defensive dominance failed to due so because he got in his own way... Some people might say Thurmond and Willis Reed also had the potential to do it, but i disagree. Bottom line is that era of basketball is long gone, so we can only speculate what someone like Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, KG would've been able to do defensively in that early/mid 60's environment...


Re: Potential to lead elite offenses. I'd remind that he was only on two elite offense in his entire career:

The first came with him operating as a decoy with teams afraid to leave him alone to score, because that's what he did before, and then faded the next year.

The second game when he stopped leading the offense and began playing "step and fetch it" to his two scoring guards. I think quite frankly your best bet for having Wilt on an elite offense is to have him play in that more Rodman-like capacity.

Re: benefitted from stronger coaching personality. That to me sounds like you're dreaming about a Pop/Duncan type relationship, but Wilt ain't Duncan. Wilt had conflicts with his coaches, and Wilt's steadfastness was proven to have nothing to do with him actually knowing what he was talking about.

In the end, I just feel like there's a strong tendency for people to say "if only" about Wilt, and I just don't have that much patience. To me when we can point to a bunch of things within the player himself that are a problem leading to the results we saw, it doesn't make sense to apologize for him.

If Wilt were smarter and had a better attitude he'd have played smarter and with a better attitude.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#38 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:02 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Garnett was ALWAYS a natural BBIQ guy to a degree that was shocking given that he struggled with things like the SAT. Work outs from his draft year tell stories of a kid who did bad in drills against cones but the moment he was matched up in a team basketball setting he was vastly more intelligent out there than guys who were college vets. He just had an instinctive feel for what to do out there, which has everything to do with how he was able to have superstar impact as a 3rd year player while Kobe would likely have still been less valuable to the Lakers than Eddie Jones if they hadn't traded Jones away.


I love stumbling on little snippets like this.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#39 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:16 pm

Owly wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:In the year before Bill Russell joined, Boston was 39-33. 0.72 SRS. Lost to the Syracuse Nationals in the 1st round of the playoffs 2-1.

Among 8 teams, Boston was a below average defensive team with a 91.7 DRTG (average was 90.3).

Bill Russell's 1st year:
44-28 W-L
4.78 SRS (best in the league)
Best defensive team at 84 DRTG.
They clearly won with their defense, since their ORTG was still below average.
They were eventually champions. They swept the Syracuse Natioanls and won 4-3 in the finals against against the St. Louis Hawks.
Bill Russsell put up 19 PTS 32 REBS 3 ASSTS in that game 7.
Notice in this season Tom Heinsohn also entered the team, and he had a good argument for FMVP.

1st time Russell was a champion the cast was
Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman
Bob Cousy
Bill Russell
Frank Ramsey
Jim Loscutoff

It's worth noting that the Celtics got off to a 16-8 (league leading) start sans Russell that year. Though their win percentage decreased slightly their points differential was better with Russell but not massively so (4.541666667 without, 5.770833333 with). They added Ramsey shortly after adding Russell (about a month after, they did well for that spell, both otoh). If you take that start as something like legit (and if you consider Ramsey an upgrade on the wings) it's quite a bit higher baseline.

This doesn't mean Russell wasn't generally a high impact player, but this is worth noting with regard to that first year.


This is indeed worth noting. It's something that could form the basis potentially for a strong argument against Russell.

I've never felt comfortable enough with the sample to jump to ambitious conclusions from it.

If my sense of Russell's impact were based primarily on his rookie season, I'd feel differently, but my main focus is on the middle of his prime. While I'm uncomfortable putting too much emphasis on Russell's rookie year to advocate for him because of this knowledge, I'm not comfortable using it as a specific argument against him.

What I'd really like is to understand more of how the start of the season played out for the Celtics.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 

Post#40 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:17 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Garnett was ALWAYS a natural BBIQ guy to a degree that was shocking given that he struggled with things like the SAT. Work outs from his draft year tell stories of a kid who did bad in drills against cones but the moment he was matched up in a team basketball setting he was vastly more intelligent out there than guys who were college vets. He just had an instinctive feel for what to do out there, which has everything to do with how he was able to have superstar impact as a 3rd year player while Kobe would likely have still been less valuable to the Lakers than Eddie Jones if they hadn't traded Jones away.


I love stumbling on little snippets like this.


lol. To be clear, I think it's clear that the Lakers traded Jones away because they saw superstar potential in Kobe that Jones didn't have. At a certain point they just decided to go for it and fully embrace all the Kobe airballs betting that when he figured it all out, he'd be better than Jones. And clearly, they're glad they made that bet.
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