Rank the top 10 seasons between Durant and Harden

[Dutchball97]

Meh, his load was pretty light in 2012. Not hard to see it as a somehwat btter, one way version of 14 kawhi.

What? How? Huh?

Sorry but this is insane. Point at anything to prove this because I wouldn't be able to think of 1 single reason why KD's load was "pretty light". A 23 year old carrying a team of other young guys to the finals and you're calling him a one way 2014 Kawhi?

Lol @carrying as if KD wasn't on lower playoff usage than just about the entirety of curry's prime.

Kd did not "carry ****" just because you go by name rep and scoring. In the following playoffs KD was asked to do normal superstar stuff and proceeded to see his effiency plumemt with his volume not going up. Then he did it again, and again, and again.

I dont know how kd being 23 matters when 24-28 KD was pathetic in the playoffs.

As for "One way 14 kawhi" given that he was only scoring with limited screation and did jack-all defensively, that's a perfectly fair way to describe his season.

Fyi Kawhi "carrried" his team to one of the most dominant playoff runs of all time

Name rep and scoring? Let's go then.

Let's see how KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka did in terms of boxscore stats in the 2012 play-offs.

Winshares:
1. Kevin Durant 4
2. James Harden 2.4
3. Russell Westbrook 2.1
4. Serge Ibaka 1.8

Winshares/48:
1. Kevin Durant .231
2. James Harden .184
3. Serge Ibaka .155
4. Russell Westbrook .133

BPM:
1. Kevin Durant 8.1
2. James Harden 3.5
3. Russell Westbrook 3.4
4. Serge Ibaka 2.4

VORP:
1. Kevin Durant 2.2
2. Russell Westbrook 1
3. James Harden 0.9
4. Serge Ibaka 0.6

PER:
1. Kevin Durant 27.5
2. Russell Westbrook 22.6
3. James Harden 20.9
4. Serge Ibaka 18.9

TS%:
1. Kevin Durant 63.2%
2. James Harden 60.5%
3. Serge Ibaka 55.8%
4. Russell Westbrook 50.6%

All pretty basic stats that aren't that reliable on their own but when every single one of them points to KD being far and away the best player on the 2012 Thunder you've got to start going beyond your personal biases and come up with some tangible stuff pointing to KD not being the driving force for this team.

Westbrook had a slightly higher usage rate than KD and thus you conclude that Westbrook carried the team? Instead of realizing Westbrook ball hogging, while being inefficient was detrimental to the team by taking touches away from KD and Harden?

Then you blame KD for being worse in the play-offs in 2013. Only because of his efficiency dipping in a small sample size (while still being above league average) you claim this but you blame me for only looking at scoring? He actually performed well enough, considering the front office didn't want to pay the second best player on the team. Not only did they lose Harden but Westbrook got injured early in the play-offs. So KD plays without Westbrook and Harden in 2013, still performs up to standard even if his efficiency was slightly down and you blame him for it?

[limbo]

It's

KD

17
18
14
13
12

Harden

20
19
18
15
17

The exact order, we can only speculate, due to the differences in role/supporting casts. Harden had to do more heavy lifting on offense in his best seasons while KD was more focused on hyper efficient scoring while pitching in other areas occasionally and was thus likely able to be more resilient.

[freethedevil]

What? How? Huh?

Sorry but this is insane. Point at anything to prove this because I wouldn't be able to think of 1 single reason why KD's load was "pretty light". A 23 year old carrying a team of other young guys to the finals and you're calling him a one way 2014 Kawhi?

Lol @carrying as if KD wasn't on lower playoff usage than just about the entirety of curry's prime.

Kd did not "carry ****" just because you go by name rep and scoring. In the following playoffs KD was asked to do normal superstar stuff and proceeded to see his effiency plumemt with his volume not going up. Then he did it again, and again, and again.

I dont know how kd being 23 matters when 24-28 KD was pathetic in the playoffs.

As for "One way 14 kawhi" given that he was only scoring with limited screation and did jack-all defensively, that's a perfectly fair way to describe his season.

Fyi Kawhi "carrried" his team to one of the most dominant playoff runs of all time

Name rep and scoring? Let's go then.

Let's see how KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka did in terms of boxscore stats in the 2012 play-offs.

Winshares:
1. Kevin Durant 4
2. James Harden 2.4
3. Russell Westbrook 2.1
4. Serge Ibaka 1.8

Winshares/48:
1. Kevin Durant .231
2. James Harden .184
3. Serge Ibaka .155
4. Russell Westbrook .133

BPM:
1. Kevin Durant 8.1
2. James Harden 3.5
3. Russell Westbrook 3.4
4. Serge Ibaka 2.4

VORP:
1. Kevin Durant 2.2
2. Russell Westbrook 1
3. James Harden 0.9
4. Serge Ibaka 0.6

PER:
1. Kevin Durant 27.5
2. Russell Westbrook 22.6
3. James Harden 20.9
4. Serge Ibaka 18.9

TS%:
1. Kevin Durant 63.2%
2. James Harden 60.5%
3. Serge Ibaka 55.8%
4. Russell Westbrook 50.6%

All pretty basic stats that aren't that reliable on their own but when every single one of them points to KD being far and away the best player on the 2012 Thunder you've got to start going beyond your personal biases and come up with some tangible stuff pointing to KD not being the driving force for this team.

Westbrook had a slightly higher usage rate than KD and thus you conclude that Westbrook carried the team? Instead of realizing Westbrook ball hogging, while being inefficient was detrimental to the team by taking touches away from KD and Harden?

Then you blame KD for being worse in the play-offs in 2013. Only because of his efficiency dipping in a small sample size (while still being above league average) you claim this but you blame me for only looking at scoring? He actually performed well enough, considering the front office didn't want to pay the second best player on the team. Not only did they lose Harden but Westbrook got injured early in the play-offs. So KD plays without Westbrook and Harden in 2013, still performs up to standard even if his efficiency was slightly down and you blame him for it?

"all the stats' as in all the garbage ones that dont account for defense and measure creation with apg and have little to no root in the game margins.

I'm just amazed your counter to "one way Kawhi" was "lemem list a bunch of one way stats that dont measure defense"

I could care less about yyour bball reference. If you want to use holistic measures to compare players, use the ones that predict winning, or stop wasting my time:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

[Dutchball97]

Lol @carrying as if KD wasn't on lower playoff usage than just about the entirety of curry's prime.

Kd did not "carry ****" just because you go by name rep and scoring. In the following playoffs KD was asked to do normal superstar stuff and proceeded to see his effiency plumemt with his volume not going up. Then he did it again, and again, and again.

I dont know how kd being 23 matters when 24-28 KD was pathetic in the playoffs.

As for "One way 14 kawhi" given that he was only scoring with limited screation and did jack-all defensively, that's a perfectly fair way to describe his season.

Fyi Kawhi "carrried" his team to one of the most dominant playoff runs of all time

Name rep and scoring? Let's go then.

Let's see how KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka did in terms of boxscore stats in the 2012 play-offs.

Winshares:
1. Kevin Durant 4
2. James Harden 2.4
3. Russell Westbrook 2.1
4. Serge Ibaka 1.8

Winshares/48:
1. Kevin Durant .231
2. James Harden .184
3. Serge Ibaka .155
4. Russell Westbrook .133

BPM:
1. Kevin Durant 8.1
2. James Harden 3.5
3. Russell Westbrook 3.4
4. Serge Ibaka 2.4

VORP:
1. Kevin Durant 2.2
2. Russell Westbrook 1
3. James Harden 0.9
4. Serge Ibaka 0.6

PER:
1. Kevin Durant 27.5
2. Russell Westbrook 22.6
3. James Harden 20.9
4. Serge Ibaka 18.9

TS%:
1. Kevin Durant 63.2%
2. James Harden 60.5%
3. Serge Ibaka 55.8%
4. Russell Westbrook 50.6%

All pretty basic stats that aren't that reliable on their own but when every single one of them points to KD being far and away the best player on the 2012 Thunder you've got to start going beyond your personal biases and come up with some tangible stuff pointing to KD not being the driving force for this team.

Westbrook had a slightly higher usage rate than KD and thus you conclude that Westbrook carried the team? Instead of realizing Westbrook ball hogging, while being inefficient was detrimental to the team by taking touches away from KD and Harden?

Then you blame KD for being worse in the play-offs in 2013. Only because of his efficiency dipping in a small sample size (while still being above league average) you claim this but you blame me for only looking at scoring? He actually performed well enough, considering the front office didn't want to pay the second best player on the team. Not only did they lose Harden but Westbrook got injured early in the play-offs. So KD plays without Westbrook and Harden in 2013, still performs up to standard even if his efficiency was slightly down and you blame him for it?

"all the stats' as in all the garbage ones that dont account for defense and measure creation with apg and have little to no root in the game margins.

I'm just amazed your counter to "one way Kawhi" was "lemem list a bunch of one way stats that dont measure defense"

I could care less about yyour bball reference. If you want to use holistic measures to compare players, use the ones that predict winning, or stop wasting my time:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

Ah yes, just deflect again. 2012 KD being a one way Kawhi is untrue because Kawhi didn't hit his offensive peak till about 2016/17. Kawhi in 2014 didn't have half of 2012 KD's offensive impact. Sure, Ibaka is going to look a lot better when taking defensive ratings into account but do you really think they'll sway in favor of Westbrook and Harden of all people?

[No-more-rings]

I'm gonna need some explanation for how either 18 or 19 were comaprable regular seasons to KD getting his team to play 60 win basketball - westbrook.

Well here's their numbers head to head 2014 vs 2018:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duranke01&p1yrfrom=2014&player_id2=hardeja01&p2yrfrom=2018&player_id3=hardeja01&p3yrfrom=2019

The Rockets played at a 70ish win pace when Paul was healthy, the Rockets overall ran a 114.7 ORTG(1st in the league) and had a 118.1 ORTG with Harden on the court. Him and Cp3 together ran a ridiculous offense when both were on the court, i don't have the exact number but i want to say it was like a 120 ORTG or something in that neighborhood.

Kd created just fine in the rs.

Harden scored a little less and was a bit less efficient, but he created more looks through his passing than KD, that shouldn't reall debatable either.

2019: https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duranke01&p1yrfrom=2014&player_id2=hardeja01&p2yrfrom=2019

This year is where Harden just seems flat out superior statistically, scores more than KD, assists more like usual. Not a big difference, but enough of one where it shouldn't call for a big explanation. Certainly this shouldn't be controversial, but it could be since people simply don't like Harden or his game or his personality but whatever. I don't like watching him play, but i have to respect his offensive craftiness and dominance plus he's an iron man.

You want to use defense for KD go ahead, but KD was mostly average in 2014 i don't think that version has an edge on defense honestly.

Are you saying u think kd was worse int he playoffs than kd was? I'm not saying ur wrong persay, but i'd like to hear the case.

Well the numbers are there for you to look at, also look at the competition and tell me who's offense declined more? Harden played legitimately good defense in the 2018 playoffs, he doesn't get enough credit for helping take a 3-2 lead over a mostly healthy version of the Durant/Curry Warriors. I know Iggy missed games but it's still damn impressive. Harden more than held his own in the possessions he guarded Curry and Durant.

Also a case for 14 westbrook over 14 kd in the playoffs.

I'm not going to put the numbers up this time, but mainly he had a better series vs the Spurs and arguably against the Clippers too. He seemed more consistent overall to me. There seemed to be less variance in his offense, he wasn't always going to be real efficient scoring the ball, but his playmaking and rebounding was rock solid always. KD has the case, but this also shouldn't be something so controversial, i believe many at the time even on this board shared the same opinion.

[freethedevil]

I'm gonna need some explanation for how either 18 or 19 were comaprable regular seasons to KD getting his team to play 60 win basketball - westbrook.

Well here's their numbers head to head 2014 vs 2018:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duranke01&p1yrfrom=2014&player_id2=hardeja01&p2yrfrom=2018&player_id3=hardeja01&p3yrfrom=2019

The Rockets played at a 70ish win pace when Paul was healthy, the Rockets overall ran a 114.7 ORTG(1st in the league) and had a 118.1 ORTG with Harden on the court. Him and Cp3 together ran a ridiculous offense when both were on the court, i don't have the exact number but i want to say it was like a 120 ORTG or something in that neighborhood.

TBF tho, chris paul was pretty close to harden at least on rate per stuff like pipm and rpm, and whether you wanan dismiss that as noise or not, he seemed to back that up to me in the playoffs.

18 Harden's rs is fair comp all things considered.

Kd created just fine in the rs.

Harden scored a little less and was a bit less efficient, but he created more looks through his passing than KD, that shouldn't reall debatable either.

2019: https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duranke01&p1yrfrom=2014&player_id2=hardeja01&p2yrfrom=2019

This year is where Harden just seems flat out superior statistically, scores more than KD, assists more like usual. Not a big difference, but enough of one where it shouldn't call for a big explanation. Certainly this shouldn't be controversial, but it could be since people simply don't like Harden or his game or his personality but whatever. I don't like watching him play, but i have to respect his offensive craftiness and dominance plus he's an iron man.

You want to use defense for KD go ahead, but KD was mostly average in 2014 i don't think that version has an edge on defense honestly.
[b]e has an edge on a negative defender which is what I consider harden up until 2020.[/b]

Are you saying u think kd was worse int he playoffs than kd was? I'm not saying ur wrong persay, but i'd like to hear the case.

Well the numbers are there for you to look at, also look at the competition and tell me who's offense declined more? Harden played legitimately good defense in the 2018 playoffs, he doesn't get enough credit for helping take a 3-2 lead over a mostly healthy version of the Durant/Curry Warriors. I know Iggy missed games but it's still damn impressive. Harden more than held his own in the possessions he guarded Curry and Durant.
Well the reason he doesn't get so much credit is because chris paul seemed to outplay him that series when healthy. Maybe thats a gravity thing though.

I'm willing to rewatch and track the defense harden played if u want.

Also a case for 14 westbrook over 14 kd in the playoffs.

I'm not going to put the numbers up this time, but mainly he had a better series vs the Spurs and arguably against the Clippers too. He seemed more consistent overall to me. There seemed to be less variance in his offense, he wasn't always going to be real efficient scoring the ball, but his playmaking and rebounding was rock solid always. KD has the case, but this also shouldn't be something so controversial, i believe many at the time even on this board shared the same opinion.

I guess I can rewatch and stattrack this series too.