RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #32 (Scottie Pippen)

[trex_8063]

Thru post #20:

Scottie Pippen - 3 (Clyde Frazier, Magic Is Magic, trex_8063)
Elgin Baylor - 2 (Hal14, penbeast0)
Reggie Miller - 1 (Doctor MJ)
Kawhi Leonard - 1 (Dutchball97)
John Havlicek - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


Probably about 23 hours left for this one.
btw---Good idea to maybe state your favorite between Pippen and Baylor, if it’s not already clear from your votes.

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[Doctor MJ]

For these two it's pretty much all about scoring, neither adds much else.

That's more or less true [mostly so, anyway]. However, delving into the nitty gritty is sort of what we do here, no?

Defensively, Reggie was passable: good length of a SG, not bad lateral quickness, very hard-nosed and consistent good effort [even in rs]. Weaknesses were that he wasn't overly strong, and not in any way a creative or brilliant defender.

Gervin in many ways is a similar athlete (excellent length for a SG, but kinda skinny/weak). Unlike Miller, though, he has a terrible defensive reputation. I'm not sure it's entirely earned; from my limited eye-test I didn't think he looked terrible [not in the way that Pete Maravich has looked terrible to me, for instance], but he was FAR from good, too.
To his credit, he's got multiple seasons averaging in the neighborhood of 2+2 [2 steals and 2 blocks] per 100 possessions. I don't think you can get that as a SG without putting in some effort defensively, particularly the blocks part. otoh, he does have a sort of high foul rate; so there may be some gambling and/or biting on fakes involved.

Gun to my head, I'm calling Reggie the better defender by at least a tiny margin.

Rebounding is a notable [though perhaps not enormous] edge to Gervin.

Passing/playmaking has got to go to Reggie. Gervin's a touch of a one-trick pony in this regard. Even though Reggie wasn't a good playmaker [at least in terms of passing], I'll note that he does have both a higher assist rate and a lower mTOV%.

And that's before we talk about the "Reggie Assist", but I'll get to that below....

One thing, Miller's teams seemed to be set up to create looks for Reggie. Indiana ran a pick heavy offense running Miller's defender through off ball as well as on ball picks. The Spurs pretty much seemed to just assume Gervin could score on anyone and would run their normal offense just throwing it to Gervin whenever they needed a boost. I don't know if that is much of a factor, but it was my perception at the time.

What has to be acknowledged, however, is that you can't just do what the Pacers did with Reggie using anyone. For example, you can't just run Gervin through that same pick-heavy offense and get the same result. You need a guy who knows the angles and timing on using screens [surprisingly not everyone figures that out], you need a guy with the motor to run all night [not everyone has that], and you need a guy who's an IMMEDIATE threat on any catch no matter how far from the basket [which forces not only HIS defender, but help defenders to cover him even if he doesn't have the ball (see Steph Curry for modern example).

It's his running thru screens and drawing two defenders [without even having the ball!] that created open looks for teammates (which he'd get no credit for in the box-score).

I did, however, feel that as a Washington fan, Gervin always seemed the more unstoppable of the two but that may just be a style thing; Gervin's scoring being more flashy.

There's no doubt Gervin was the better isolation scorer [and not particularly close]. All these considerations make "who's the better player?" an interesting question, though.

I don't think there's any question that Reggie had the superior longevity either, fwiw.

I would also say that I feel Miller played with superior teammates for longer though I have not done serious analysis on it.

I'd have to look into it more to say, but off the cuff I'm not sure I agree. I don't feel like Reggie ever had a great cast, for instance. And there were A LOT of years where the starting PG was someone like Vern Fleming or Haywoode Workman (and the best was probably an older Mark Jackson); the best C he EVER had was Rik Smits; the best SF he EVER had was probably Derrick McKey [or maybe a post-prime Chris Mullin].
Detlef Schrempf was likely the best player he EVER had as a teammate, and that was for about 4.5 seasons in an 18-year career.

Anyway, although I'm not voting for him yet, I'll comfortably take Reggie over Gervin, personally.

I just wanted to say I appreciate the insight from both of you.

[DQuinn1575]

Havlicek - he had seasons as one of the top scores in the league. Seasons as one of the top passers. Seasons as all-defense, and would have had more if they started picking them earlier. Three times he led a champ in Win Shares. He is Pippen except he comes through in the clutch. . All-around guy, played guard or forward, great defender, played as piece of a team, or leader of a team. The guy did everything right, has longevity. Great athlete, just missed making the NFL, was in last cut of Cleveland Browns.

Elgin Baylor has become underrated as the pendulum swings. Truth is that he did have 2 bad years of shooting, but he is a volume scorer who performed well in playoffs, an excellent rebounder, and has passing skills and success that most dont realize. Carried a team better than Pippen, which is true of all 3 of these guys, and had more good seasons than Barry, who are probably my next two right now.

Rick Barry carried maybe the worst starting lineup to a championship. He also led a team to take 2 wins in the finals against one of the best teams of all-time. Besides his scoring skills, he was an excellent passer. Not a defensive star, but held his own on that side of the court.


1. Havlicek
2. Baylor
3. Barry

[Magic Is Magic]

I know Cousy won MVP, but I don't see any case for him over Havlicek...

1st off, the MVP is the hardest, most coveted award to win in the NBA.
Cousy has the MVP, Havlicek does not (in fact he never even finished top 3, which is really bad)
Cousy has 10x 1st team all NBA, Havlicek has 4

[Doctor MJ]

I know Cousy won MVP, but I don't see any case for him over Havlicek...

1st off, the MVP is the hardest, most coveted award to win in the NBA.
Cousy has the MVP, Havlicek does not (in fact he never even finished top 3, which is really bad)
Cousy has 10x 1st team all NBA, Havlicek has 4

Right, but people back then were wrong. It's fine if you don't agree with that assessment, just make sure you make your own assessment.

To be clear, I'm not saying to ignore contemporary voices. It's right to start from understanding those voices, but when you get access to information they didn't have, sometimes you see issues with their assessments. In the case of Cousy, he was an offensive player winning the MVP on a team winning with defense that people that people thought was winning with offense because the Celtics played with such pace.

I will say, it was a tricky year because the dominance of the Celtics seem to cry out for a Celtic MVP, but I would rate Cousy at least below Schayes, Arizin & Pettit in some order which puts Cousy no higher than Havlicek's peak MVP finish.

[Cavsfansince84]

I know Cousy won MVP, but I don't see any case for him over Havlicek...

1st off, the MVP is the hardest, most coveted award to win in the NBA.
Cousy has the MVP, Havlicek does not (in fact he never even finished top 3, which is really bad)
Cousy has 10x 1st team all NBA, Havlicek has 4

That's true but its not like mvp voters always do that great of a job with the voting be it the players or the media. Its one thing to consider as is the era of the 50's. I actually don't mind players like Cousy and Schayes getting votes here just as I championed Pettit quite a bit before he got voted in but its also true that Cousy never led a single Celtics team in win shares despite playing many of his best years before Russell got to Boston while Hondo did so many times including leading 3 title teams in playoff win shares. So I think you could say that Hondo may have been the best player on as many as 3 title teams while Cousy never was.

[Doctor MJ]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

[ZeppelinPage]

1. Kawhi Leonard - Some great playoff runs, finals performances, all-around incredibly productive and valuable player. Little over Harden & Pippen just from a production and value standpoint.

2. Manu Ginobili - Did some more thinking and I'm putting Manu ahead of Scottie. Played a role few other stars would have agreed to. Consistently performed in the playoffs, with a ridiculous '05 playoffs capped off by a Finals that I view as an MVP performance. As a player, he's all-around fantastic. Can score all over the floor, incredibly high IQ and a gifted passer as well as one of the most underrated defenders among stars in NBA history. Immediately pops on film on both sides of the ball, especially in that '05 playoffs run.

3. Scottie Pippen - Strong two-way player--I just doubt his overall impact is what Kawhi's shooting/defensive two-way abilities bring. I like Manu a little more as an all-around player but it really is close between Scottie and a few other players on my list.

[70sFan]

About Gervin's defense - I don't know why but he seemed to be MUCH better on that end in late 1970s than early 1980s. It seems that he just decided to stop playing defense at some point of his career.

About Gervin's scoring - calling Gervin an iso scorer is misleading because he rarely scored that way in comparison to other high scoring players from that era. Gervin was used a lot without the ball and he wasn't ball dominant - Spurs relied heavily on movement in the late 1970s when they had the most success. He wasn't Reggie of course, but he could play off-ball better than most offensive superstars. It also explains why he had such a low assist numbers despite not being selfish and having decent (not great) awareness.

[penbeast0]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

I was not that impressed with Havlicek in the 60s. He had that great motor and was a great team guy but offensively, he was inefficient for his first few years and he was always a bit turnover prone. Defensively, he was a great energy guy but could be overpowered by forwards; Dipper used to post an anecdote about how Bill Russell had to switch onto Chet Walker to keep Walker from taking over a playoff series . . . which means neither Havlicek nor fellow defender Satch Sanders were able to handle him which admittedly suprised me since both have strong defensive reps.

In the 70s, Boston used Havlicek much more in an on ball role with Chaney often covering whichever wing was the bigger scoring threat. He improved his game (or the league was worse, which with that huge expansion is a very real possibility) to become a real offensive threat on a deep team but while he kept up the energy and steals, he was not a real shutdown guy defensively from what I saw (and I saw him a lot more in the 70s). Great leader, great locker room guy.

I have Pippen being the more efficient scorer (.536 ts% to Havlicek's career .492) and the better on ball defender while being at least equal off ball and as a playmaker. Pippen also was a strong rebounding wing, Havlicek wasn't. The only real hesitation I have is that I have some issues with Pippen's personality, he seemed to have some insecurity issues. But I like Pippen's game more of the two. And, his middle name is Maurice which seems cool

[Hal14]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

I was not that impressed with Havlicek in the 60s. He had that great motor and was a great team guy but offensively, he was inefficient for his first few years and he was always a bit turnover prone. Defensively, he was a great energy guy but could be overpowered by forwards; Dipper used to post an anecdote about how Bill Russell had to switch onto Chet Walker to keep Walker from taking over a playoff series . . . which means neither Havlicek nor fellow defender Satch Sanders were able to handle him which admittedly suprised me since both have strong defensive reps.

In the 70s, Boston used Havlicek much more in an on ball role with Chaney often covering whichever wing was the bigger scoring threat. He improved his game (or the league was worse, which with that huge expansion is a very real possibility) to become a real offensive threat on a deep team but while he kept up the energy and steals, he was not a real shutdown guy defensively from what I saw (and I saw him a lot more in the 70s). Great leader, great locker room guy.

I have Pippen being the more efficient scorer (.536 ts% to Havlicek's career .492) and the better on ball defender while being at least equal off ball and as a playmaker. Pippen also was a strong rebounding wing, Havlicek wasn't. The only real hesitation I have is that I have some issues with Pippen's personality, he seemed to have some insecurity issues. But I like Pippen's game more of the two. And, his middle name is Maurice which seems cool

a) I'm curious how each player's TS% compares to the league average during the era in which they played. I say this because my assumption is, Hondo's TS% is lower because in his era it was simply more difficult for a smaller player to make shots. The ball they played with back then was not nearly as shooter-friendly as the ball Pippen shot, the ball Hondo played with also was more difficult to dribble..also the era Hondo played in (especially early in his career) was more of a run and gun style, they pushed the pace more, they put up shots earlier in the shot clock, especially those Celtics teams - they wanted to get up as many shots as possible and run, run run! The result was, the team would have lower shooting % (Cousy, Russell are both known to have lower shooting % but winning is what it's all about and who won more than Cousy, Russell and Hondo?), but they didn't care because they were putting shots up so quickly that many of those shots would be easy fast break opportunities and plus they knew their Celtics team was better conditioned so in the final minutes of a close game they knew they'd have more gas left in the tank - hence, why the Celtics won so many close game 7's. Also, with no 3 point shot when Hondo played, there was less spacing, defenses were packed in to the middle, so it was much tougher for a guy like Hondo to get an open shot or an open driving lane than it was for someone like Pippen in the 90s.

b) Pippen had the luxury of playing with Jordan (arguably the greatest scorer ever) for his entire Bulls career except for 1 and a half seasons. So Pippen wasn't the guy who teams geared their defense around. They focused on Jordan (Jordan Rules), which left Pippen open for easier looks than someone like Hondo had. The best scorers Hondo played with were Sam Jones and Cowens (no, those 2 did not overlap) and obviously neither of them is even on the same planet scoring-wise as Jordan. In fact, Hondo often times had to carry the scoring load. Hondo was the Celtic's leading scorer 7 times and he was within 2 PPG of the team's leading scorer 6 times. That's 13 out of his 16 seasons. Compare that to Pippen - who I believe only led his team in scoring once and all of those years he played with Jordan he was never within 2 PPG of him.

Hondo even had 2 seasons where he averaged over 7 PPG more than the Celtics' 2nd leading scorer. Yes, 1 of those seasons was 68-69 when the Celtics were not very good, but 1 of them was also 70-71 when they were a very good team.

Both Hondo and Pippen are 2 of the greatest wing defenders of all time. Sure, Pippen is better. But is it a large enough gap to make up for the scoring edge that Hondo has? And more rings for Rondo and better longevity for Hondo..not to mention Hondo was a team-first guy, amazing teammate, great locker room presence, always gave it his all. Pippen manwhile was at time a distraction to his team, at times let his ego get in the way of helping the team, like when he refused to play for the first half of the 97-98 season because of tension he had with team management and when he refused to go out onto the court in the 94 ECF in the final seconds of a tied game, simply because Phil Jackson drew up a player for Kukoc to get the final shot instead of Pippen:

Watch on YouTube

Hondo > Pippen IMO

[Dr Positivity]

1. Elgin Baylor - I have mixed feelings about the post surgery years, but he was a legitimate superstar for a few years beore that, which is more than a lot of these guys can say

2. John Havlicek - Long career, elite defense/intangibles, solid offense leading team in the 70s, good in playoffs

3. Clyde Drexler - One of the better offensive players left that has normal longevity

[Cavsfansince84]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

I was not that impressed with Havlicek in the 60s. He had that great motor and was a great team guy but offensively, he was inefficient for his first few years and he was always a bit turnover prone. Defensively, he was a great energy guy but could be overpowered by forwards; Dipper used to post an anecdote about how Bill Russell had to switch onto Chet Walker to keep Walker from taking over a playoff series . . . which means neither Havlicek nor fellow defender Satch Sanders were able to handle him which admittedly suprised me since both have strong defensive reps.

In the 70s, Boston used Havlicek much more in an on ball role with Chaney often covering whichever wing was the bigger scoring threat. He improved his game (or the league was worse, which with that huge expansion is a very real possibility) to become a real offensive threat on a deep team but while he kept up the energy and steals, he was not a real shutdown guy defensively from what I saw (and I saw him a lot more in the 70s). Great leader, great locker room guy.

I have Pippen being the more efficient scorer (.536 ts% to Havlicek's career .492) and the better on ball defender while being at least equal off ball and as a playmaker. Pippen also was a strong rebounding wing, Havlicek wasn't. The only real hesitation I have is that I have some issues with Pippen's personality, he seemed to have some insecurity issues. But I like Pippen's game more of the two. And, his middle name is Maurice which seems cool

Worth noting though that Havlicek not only was shooting a much higher volume some of those years but more importantly imo is that he turned up his scoring quite a bit in the playoffs and his efficiency. From the 67-74 playoffs(minus 70 & 71 because Boston missed them) he averaged over 26ppg on over 52% ts(including 27.1 on 53.5% during the 74 title run). That is impressive and more so given the era. So that to me is one of the deal breakers between them along with the intangibles. Because tbh, Pippen was seen as sort of mentally weak or flaky for much of his career. It wasn't a major thing but it was there while Hondo is a guy who took over as a primary scorer and leader and playmaker during that time and wins more rings. Plus I think Havlicek has him on longevity(11x all nba).

[DQuinn1575]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

I was not that impressed with Havlicek in the 60s. He had that great motor and was a great team guy but offensively, he was inefficient for his first few years and he was always a bit turnover prone. Defensively, he was a great energy guy but could be overpowered by forwards; Dipper used to post an anecdote about how Bill Russell had to switch onto Chet Walker to keep Walker from taking over a playoff series . . . which means neither Havlicek nor fellow defender Satch Sanders were able to handle him which admittedly suprised me since both have strong defensive reps.

In the 70s, Boston used Havlicek much more in an on ball role with Chaney often covering whichever wing was the bigger scoring threat. He improved his game (or the league was worse, which with that huge expansion is a very real possibility) to become a real offensive threat on a deep team but while he kept up the energy and steals, he was not a real shutdown guy defensively from what I saw (and I saw him a lot more in the 70s). Great leader, great locker room guy.

I have Pippen being the more efficient scorer (.536 ts% to Havlicek's career .492) and the better on ball defender while being at least equal off ball and as a playmaker. Pippen also was a strong rebounding wing, Havlicek wasn't. The only real hesitation I have is that I have some issues with Pippen's personality, he seemed to have some insecurity issues. But I like Pippen's game more of the two. And, his middle name is Maurice which seems cool

Worth noting though that Havlicek not only was shooting a much higher volume some of those years but more importantly imo is that he turned up his scoring quite a bit in the playoffs and his efficiency. From the 67-74 playoffs(minus 70 & 71 because Boston missed them) he averaged over 26ppg on over 52% ts(including 27.1 on 53.5% during the 74 title run). That is impressive and more so given the era. So that to me is one of the deal breakers between them along with the intangibles. Because tbh, Pippen was seen as sort of mentally weak or flaky for much of his career. It wasn't a major thing but it was there while Hondo is a guy who took over as a primary scorer and leader and playmaker during that time and wins more rings. Plus I think Havlicek has him on longevity(11x all nba).

If there was one play and my life depended on it Havlicek would be one of the five games I want on the court. Doesnt matter if we have the ball or not. PIppen is one of the five guys I dont want on the court. Can't say it any plainer than that.

[Firebird1]

Pippen had a ego and sulked off the court. Pip was mentally weak and refused to play in ECF.

[penbeast0]

Worth noting though that Havlicek not only was shooting a much higher volume some of those years but more importantly imo is that he turned up his scoring quite a bit in the playoffs and his efficiency. From the 67-74 playoffs(minus 70 & 71 because Boston missed them) he averaged over 26ppg on over 52% ts(including 27.1 on 53.5% during the 74 title run). That is impressive and more so given the era. So that to me is one of the deal breakers between them along with the intangibles. Because tbh, Pippen was seen as sort of mentally weak or flaky for much of his career. It wasn't a major thing but it was there while Hondo is a guy who took over as a primary scorer and leader and playmaker during that time and wins more rings. Plus I think Havlicek has him on longevity(11x all nba).

The higher volume is, to a large extent, a result of higher pace. The Celtics played at a very fast pace and the era Havlicek played in corresponds to the fastest paced era in NBA history. As for playoff efficiency, looking at their whole careers, the efficiency differential is still .526 to .498; as I said, Havlicek in the early part of his career was pretty inefficient. Since he was playing big minutes from his second year through the end of his career, not sure why we are discounting those years when you count them on longevity.

Notice also that when Russell retired and the rest of the team was pretty much the same, Havlicek as the undisputed #1 player led his team to only 34 wins until Dave Cowens showed up. When Jordan retired to play baseball, Pippen as the undisputed #1 player led Chicago without their GOAT candidate to 55 and 47 wins and two 1st round playoff victories.

Both great players who would be great on just about any team with their versatility and team friendly games. I do think the weak ego thing is a bit overrated. MJ's need to feel persecuted and disrespected to fuel his competitive fire I think contributed to a similar feeling of persecution and feeling disrespected in Pippen which came out badly on those two occasions (and the fact that it was Kukoc made the disrespect a lot worse in Scottie's mind thanks to both Krause and MJ feeding fuel to those flames). I do rate Havlicek definitely higher on leadership however.

[Doctor MJ]

I'd like to hear more from anyone about Pippen > Havlicek, particularly if you don't see them as close.

To me they are guys in the same mold and then Havlicek adds a whole different dimension while Pippen fades into obscurity. I can see favoring Pippen just in the same-mold comparison, but it's hard for me not to be more impressed by what Havlicek was able to do.

I was not that impressed with Havlicek in the 60s. He had that great motor and was a great team guy but offensively, he was inefficient for his first few years and he was always a bit turnover prone. Defensively, he was a great energy guy but could be overpowered by forwards; Dipper used to post an anecdote about how Bill Russell had to switch onto Chet Walker to keep Walker from taking over a playoff series . . . which means neither Havlicek nor fellow defender Satch Sanders were able to handle him which admittedly suprised me since both have strong defensive reps.

In the 70s, Boston used Havlicek much more in an on ball role with Chaney often covering whichever wing was the bigger scoring threat. He improved his game (or the league was worse, which with that huge expansion is a very real possibility) to become a real offensive threat on a deep team but while he kept up the energy and steals, he was not a real shutdown guy defensively from what I saw (and I saw him a lot more in the 70s). Great leader, great locker room guy.

I have Pippen being the more efficient scorer (.536 ts% to Havlicek's career .492) and the better on ball defender while being at least equal off ball and as a playmaker. Pippen also was a strong rebounding wing, Havlicek wasn't. The only real hesitation I have is that I have some issues with Pippen's personality, he seemed to have some insecurity issues. But I like Pippen's game more of the two. And, his middle name is Maurice which seems cool

Worth noting though that Havlicek not only was shooting a much higher volume some of those years but more importantly imo is that he turned up his scoring quite a bit in the playoffs and his efficiency. From the 67-74 playoffs(minus 70 & 71 because Boston missed them) he averaged over 26ppg on over 52% ts(including 27.1 on 53.5% during the 74 title run). That is impressive and more so given the era. So that to me is one of the deal breakers between them along with the intangibles. Because tbh, Pippen was seen as sort of mentally weak or flaky for much of his career. It wasn't a major thing but it was there while Hondo is a guy who took over as a primary scorer and leader and playmaker during that time and wins more rings. Plus I think Havlicek has him on longevity(11x all nba).

So a few notes:

1. From a TS Add perspective, '70s Havlicek is almost inline with prime Pippen, and this was despite the fact that Pippen played in a really smart offensive scheme with Jordan drawing all the attention whereas from what I can tell the Celtics' offense in these years was always fairly poorly designed.

2. Havlicek didn't actually score more per possession than Pippen. We don't have all the data for Pippen, but he may actually have been carrying the bigger offensive load, and of course doing so on an offense where things were really working.

So that's one counter in favor of Hondo and one in favor of Scottie.

I do think that Havlicek did seem to have at least some tendency toward higher efficiency in the playoffs in the '70s and my feeling is that Pippen went a bit in the negative direction.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'll just say, looks to me like I'm going to keep Havlicek ahead of Pippen on my list this round, and there's a good chance that this will be the last round both are competing so that may be that. Respect both players a lot though.

[Cavsfansince84]

The higher volume is, to a large extent, a result of higher pace. The Celtics played at a very fast pace and the era Havlicek played in corresponds to the fastest paced era in NBA history. As for playoff efficiency, looking at their whole careers, the efficiency differential is still .526 to .498; as I said, Havlicek in the early part of his career was pretty inefficient. Since he was playing big minutes from his second year through the end of his career, not sure why we are discounting those years when you count them on longevity.

Notice also that when Russell retired and the rest of the team was pretty much the same, Havlicek as the undisputed #1 player led his team to only 34 wins until Dave Cowens showed up. When Jordan retired to play baseball, Pippen as the undisputed #1 player led Chicago without their GOAT candidate to 55 and 47 wins and two 1st round playoff victories.

Both great players who would be great on just about any team with their versatility and team friendly games. I do think the weak ego thing is a bit overrated. MJ's need to feel persecuted and disrespected to fuel his competitive fire I think contributed to a similar feeling of persecution and feeling disrespected in Pippen which came out badly on those two occasions (and the fact that it was Kukoc made the disrespect a lot worse in Scottie's mind thanks to both Krause and MJ feeding fuel to those flames). I do rate Havlicek definitely higher on leadership however.

My issue though is that as I said from 67-74 when Havlicek was scoring the most in the playoffs he was also at his most efficient. His overall ts add numbers are skewered a lot by his early years. Also worth noting that the Celtics didn't just lose Russell in 70, they also lost Jones and it seems like Howell dropped off as well due to age and retired after the following season. So I think that was a noticeably weaker team compared to the Bulls in 94. Maybe more so since I think Russell's defense and rebounding was harder to replace than MJ's scoring. I currently have both guys in my ballot but when I look at them I just think Havlicek accomplished more.

[penbeast0]

Sam Jones had dropped to a reserve role by 69 and they replace him with rookie Jo Jo White who had a very similar year to what Jones had had but yes, Howell was slowing down and Satch Sanders missed some games (57/82). And with no real replacement center, having your PFs play less minutes too meant they were relying heavily on Hank Finkel (now starting) and Don Nelson to play more at the 4. Nelson was actually doing a bit better in the offense part of that forward platoon than Howell but they couldn't replace the defensive anchor or the rebounding that Russell provided.