RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 (Clyde Drexler)

[eminence]

Been a busy busy couple of weeks, but hoping to be back with a bit regularity. 1st thoughts on guys mentioned so far.

Cousy - Don't see him as any sort of revolutionary, lots of early guys played the same role as him, though he may have been the most effective (I'd argue Davies did it better).

Schayes - A strong candidate for me here, I like his defense a solid amount, not the highest peak here, but very consistent and good longevity, career wise I've got him over Cousy for sure.

Thomas - Big-time playoff performer or RS under-performer?

Gilmore - Great ABA run, not particularly impressed with his time in the NBA.

Drexler - Solid contender, need to look at his early and later years a bit more.

Kawhi - Longevity lacking, though arguably a better peak than anyone with better longevity at this point.

Miller - Didn't get the recognition during his career, but appreciation for him has risen quickly recently.

Billups - This is another guy I like here, rock solid guy.

Walton - Top tier guy at peak, longevity leaves him out for me.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #21:

Kawhi Leonard - 2 (Dutchball97, Joao Saraiva)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Magic Is Magic)
Reggie Miller - 1 (penbeast0)
Clyde Drexler - 1 (Odinn21)
Artis Gilmore - 1 (trex_8063)
Dolph Schayes - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


About 10 hours [or just under] left for this one. If your name isn't shown, I haven't seen a vote from you itt.
Calling on all to pay attention to who the front-runners are, as I'll need to hear from you when it comes to Condorcet verification. Assuming most of the same posters show up to vote, it's likely going to come down to Reggie, Kawhi, or Drexler, would be my guess.

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Doctor MJ]

Vote:

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Kawhi Leonard

Reggie still #1, Artis moves up a slot, giving the open slot to Kawhi.

Miller as I've said was a revolutionary player, and he was specifically revolutionary because his game worked. Across the '90s, there's really only one Eastern Conference team (Bulls) that outclasses Miller's Pacers. Pacers have a good case to make to have been the 2nd best Eastern franchise in this time period ahead of teams like Ewing's Knicks.

It was noted that Gervin over Gilmore is far from any kind of clear cut thing and I agree. Typically I've had Gilmore hire than Gervin but I heard some good pro-Gervin arguments and went with him this time. Really not sure that was the right call. The reality is that Gilmore was a more dominant player in his ABA years than Gervin ever was anywhere despite largely being in the same leagues at the same time (started a year later, retired sooner).

It's hard to know where to slot in Kawhi, but I'm seeing some good arguments and his case has been clear for a while. As I've said, I'd vote for him over Harden.

On some other guys being mentioned:

Between Cousy & Schayes, I'll take Schayes. Reluctant to pick Schayes over Arizin though, although good arguments were made about longevity there.

Walton - Absolutely love Big Red. Obviously the pros/cons here are obvious. I expect to be higher on Walton than most, but I'll say that it's hard for me to really look at a guy like Walton before, say, a guys like Wes Unseld or Dave Cowens is in. I consider Walton's peak higher, but Walton earns his place here with his championships and what they did for the franchises he was on, and I think on a basketball level Unseld & Cowens did more for their respective franchises.

Howard - Walton over Howard. That stuff I just said about Unseld & Cowens? Does not apply to Dwight.

Drexler - Not super-impressed by Drexler. To me he seems like a guy who basically forces you to play a certain way around him that's pretty heliocentric (Drexler was the death of Jack Ramsay's career in Portland), I don't see a great BBIQ, I don't see defense or toughness, I don't see leadership, and I see a fantastic Blazer supporting cast around him in the years where things actually worked.

Point guards - I'm really not sure who my next point guard is going to be. Cases are being made for Isiah & Billups, and to me that makes sense. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Payton too who traditionally gets discussed here but I'm not a big fan of.

Just sharing some search info I did. If I sort by guards with most RS Win Shares, here are the guys who show up not already voted in:

1. Miller 174.4
2. Payton 145.5
3. Allen 145.1
4. Drexler 135.6
5. Carter 125.3
6. Billups 120.8
7. Parker 111.3
8. Porter 110.4
9. Hornacek 108.9
10. Ginobili 106.4

If I do it for the playoffs:

1. Ginobili 20.8
2. Billups 20.6
3. Miller 19.9
4. Allen 18.0
5. Drexler 15.5
6. S. Jones 15.2
7. Fisher 14.6
8. Hornacek 14.4
9. Parker 13.6
10. D. Johnson 13.2

As always the caveat: I'm not in love with WS, it's just a simple thing I can query easily.

Second caveat: Clearly guys from the deeper past, like Sam Jones, are at a disadvantage playoff-wise here because there were less playoff rounds.

I'll tell you the thing that's just weird to me is that Isiah doesn't show up on either list. I was reluctant to put Billups above Isiah, but honestly, it's making more and more sense to me.

Aside from Miller & Billups, the two really standing out to me are Allen and Ginobili, and I'm reminded that it's kind of time for Allen to get some serious consideration, which also brings up Pierce.

[DQuinn1575]

1. Reggie Miller
2, Kawhi
3. Sam Jones
Sam Jones has great playoffs throughout the 60s - here he is versus Oscar and West:

g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Oscar Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Oscar Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Oscar Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
Opp 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

Miller was very efficient scorer, which I rate highly, and was solid in rest of this game and a noted clutch performer.
Kawhi is better defensively, not as efficient a scorer, but will surpass Kawhi and a few others the next time we do this.

[DQuinn1575]

Vote:

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Kawhi Leonard

Reggie still #1, Artis moves up a slot, giving the open slot to Kawhi.

Miller as I've said was a revolutionary player, and he was specifically revolutionary because his game worked. Across the '90s, there's really only one Eastern Conference team (Bulls) that outclasses Miller's Pacers. Pacers have a good case to make to have been the 2nd best Eastern franchise in this time period ahead of teams like Ewing's Knicks.

It was noted that Gervin over Gilmore is far from any kind of clear cut thing and I agree. Typically I've had Gilmore hire than Gervin but I heard some good pro-Gervin arguments and went with him this time. Really not sure that was the right call. The reality is that Gilmore was a more dominant player in his ABA years than Gervin ever was anywhere despite largely being in the same leagues at the same time (started a year later, retired sooner).

It's hard to know where to slot in Kawhi, but I'm seeing some good arguments and his case has been clear for a while. As I've said, I'd vote for him over Harden.

On some other guys being mentioned:

Between Cousy & Schayes, I'll take Schayes. Reluctant to pick Schayes over Arizin though, although good arguments were made about longevity there.

Walton - Absolutely love Big Red. Obviously the pros/cons here are obvious. I expect to be higher on Walton than most, but I'll say that it's hard for me to really look at a guy like Walton before, say, a guys like Wes Unseld or Dave Cowens is in. I consider Walton's peak higher, but Walton earns his place here with his championships and what they did for the franchises he was on, and I think on a basketball level Unseld & Cowens did more for their respective franchises.

Howard - Walton over Howard. That stuff I just said about Unseld & Cowens? Does not apply to Dwight.

Drexler - Not super-impressed by Drexler. To me he seems like a guy who basically forces you to play a certain way around him that's pretty heliocentric (Drexler was the death of Jack Ramsay's career in Portland), I don't see a great BBIQ, I don't see defense or toughness, I don't see leadership, and I see a fantastic Blazer supporting cast around him in the years where things actually worked.

Point guards - I'm really not sure who my next point guard is going to be. Cases are being made for Isiah & Billups, and to me that makes sense. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Payton too who traditionally gets discussed here but I'm not a big fan of.

Just sharing some search info I did. If I sort by guards with most RS Win Shares, here are the guys who show up not already voted in:

1. Miller 174.4
2. Payton 145.5
3. Allen 145.1
4. Drexler 135.6
5. Carter 125.3
6. Billups 120.8
7. Parker 111.3
8. Porter 110.4
9. Hornacek 108.9
10. Ginobili 106.4

If I do it for the playoffs:

1. Ginobili 20.8
2. Billups 20.6
3. Miller 19.9
4. Allen 18.0
5. Drexler 15.5
6. S. Jones 15.2
7. Fisher 14.6
8. Hornacek 14.4
9. Parker 13.6
10. D. Johnson 13.2

As always the caveat: I'm not in love with WS, it's just a simple thing I can query easily.

Second caveat: Clearly guys from the deeper past, like Sam Jones, are at a disadvantage playoff-wise here because there were less playoff rounds.

I'll tell you the thing that's just weird to me is that Isiah doesn't show up on either list. I was reluctant to put Billups above Isiah, but honestly, it's making more and more sense to me.

Aside from Miller & Billups, the two really standing out to me are Allen and Ginobili, and I'm reminded that it's kind of time for Allen to get some serious consideration, which also brings up Pierce.

Seeing the same thing on Billups, he's going to wind up higher for me than I thought starting out. Also starting to think about Allen and Pierce.
How about Drexler? He shows up high on both lists, and doesnt have the benefit than Ginobili and Parker get in PO win shares by getting games because they are playing with Duncan and Robinson.
Heck Hornacek has 14.4 in less games, on a per game basis he is pretty even PO wise with Ginobili.

Im not as big on Ginobili - he ranks with Horancek and Terry Porter regular season, which isnt Top 100.
Or his playoffs are equal to Billups, with Billups having way less games, and Billups is ahead regular season. The same is true for Kevin McHale.

Isiah is killed in playoffs by only have 111 games, again on a per game basis he is ahead of Ginobili in the pplayoffs. I know someone is going to say Ginobili played less, but he doesnt help the team on the bench,

[Doctor MJ]

Seeing the same thing on Billups, he's going to wind up higher for me than I thought starting out. Also starting to think about Allen and Pierce.
How about Drexler? He shows up high on both lists, and doesnt have the benefit than Ginobili and Parker get in PO win shares by getting games because they are playing with Duncan and Robinson.
Heck Hornacek has 14.4 in less games, on a per game basis he is pretty even PO wise with Ginobili.

Im not as big on Ginobili - he ranks with Horancek and Terry Porter regular season, which isnt Top 100.
Or his playoffs are equal to Billups, with Billups having way less games, and Billups is ahead regular season. The same is true for Kevin McHale.

Isiah is killed in playoffs by only have 111 games, again on a per game basis he is ahead of Ginobili in the pplayoffs. I know someone is going to say Ginobili played less, but he doesnt help the team on the bench,

As I've said, I'm not super-high on Drexler. This was a guy who put up his biggest numbers on a team struggling to turn the corner with locker room issues directly tied to his lack of leadership. I see as a guy with his head in the clouds whose story got completely changed with the arrival of Buck Williams and an excellent defense that wasn't about Drexler.

I'd still expect to have Drexler over Parker though. I see Ginobili as a stunningly impactful player. He played less than other guys. He also played harder and smarter than basically anyone else. This was a guy making good things happen at nearly every moment on the floor. I do knock him for the minutes though, which is why, for example, I didn't bring him up when people were considering, say, Kobe.

I'll say that I'm honestly not thinking about Hornacek or Porter at all as candidates right now. I don't consider either in the same league as Ginobili.

Re: Isiah only 111 playoff games. It's really astonishing to me that, for example, Chauncey Billups has way more playoff games than Isiah. Billups wasn't in a position to even really play in the playoffs until his 6th year. Not saying that this alone should put Billups over Isiah as honestly I'd still be surprised if Billups goes before Isiah, but it's surprising to me Isiah didn't play more given that we think of the Bad Boy Pistons as playing deep into the playoffs year after year.

[DQuinn1575]

Seeing the same thing on Billups, he's going to wind up higher for me than I thought starting out. Also starting to think about Allen and Pierce.
How about Drexler? He shows up high on both lists, and doesnt have the benefit than Ginobili and Parker get in PO win shares by getting games because they are playing with Duncan and Robinson.
Heck Hornacek has 14.4 in less games, on a per game basis he is pretty even PO wise with Ginobili.

Im not as big on Ginobili - he ranks with Horancek and Terry Porter regular season, which isnt Top 100.
Or his playoffs are equal to Billups, with Billups having way less games, and Billups is ahead regular season. The same is true for Kevin McHale.

Isiah is killed in playoffs by only have 111 games, again on a per game basis he is ahead of Ginobili in the pplayoffs. I know someone is going to say Ginobili played less, but he doesnt help the team on the bench,

As I've said, I'm not super-high on Drexler. This was a guy who put up his biggest numbers on a team struggling to turn the corner with locker room issues directly tied to his lack of leadership. I see as a guy with his head in the clouds whose story got completely changed with the arrival of Buck Williams and an excellent defense that wasn't about Drexler.

I'd still expect to have Drexler over Parker though. I see Ginobili as a stunningly impactful player. He played less than other guys. He also played harder and smarter than basically anyone else. This was a guy making good things happen at nearly every moment on the floor. I do knock him for the minutes though, which is why, for example, I didn't bring him up when people were considering, say, Kobe.

I'll say that I'm honestly not thinking about Hornacek or Porter at all as candidates right now. I don't consider either in the same league as Ginobili.

Re: Isiah only 111 playoff games. It's really astonishing to me that, for example, Chauncey Billups has way more playoff games than Isiah. Billups wasn't in a position to even really play in the playoffs until his 6th year. Not saying that this alone should put Billups over Isiah as honestly I'd still be surprised if Billups goes before Isiah, but it's surprising to me Isiah didn't play more given that we think of the Bad Boy Pistons as playing deep into the playoffs year after year.

We don't think about the fact that after they lost to the Bulls in 91, Isiah played in only 5 more playoff game, and the Pistons didnt even make the playoffs in 1993.

[Cavsfansince84]

As I've said, I'm not super-high on Drexler. This was a guy who put up his biggest numbers on a team struggling to turn the corner with locker room issues directly tied to his lack of leadership. I see as a guy with his head in the clouds whose story got completely changed with the arrival of Buck Williams and an excellent defense that wasn't about Drexler.

I'd still expect to have Drexler over Parker though. I see Ginobili as a stunningly impactful player. He played less than other guys. He also played harder and smarter than basically anyone else. This was a guy making good things happen at nearly every moment on the floor. I do knock him for the minutes though, which is why, for example, I didn't bring him up when people were considering, say, Kobe.

I'll say that I'm honestly not thinking about Hornacek or Porter at all as candidates right now. I don't consider either in the same league as Ginobili.

Re: Isiah only 111 playoff games. It's really astonishing to me that, for example, Chauncey Billups has way more playoff games than Isiah. Billups wasn't in a position to even really play in the playoffs until his 6th year. Not saying that this alone should put Billups over Isiah as honestly I'd still be surprised if Billups goes before Isiah, but it's surprising to me Isiah didn't play more given that we think of the Bad Boy Pistons as playing deep into the playoffs year after year.

The other thing about Drexler is that I think there's an argument to be made that Porter was actually the most valuable player on those 90-92 Blazer teams and their best playoff performer. He was leading them in win shares in both the rs and ps in both finals years. Not that I'm pushing Clyde way down because he did lead the 95 Rockets in ps win shares when they won the title so I think he sort of redeemed himself but I think I currently have him at about 41-42 on my list.

[Cavsfansince84]

A guy I'd like to bring up is Billy Cunningham. Is it crazy to think he should be getting consideration pretty soon? Obviously he's a bit short on longevity but I think you could make a case he had a prime of 10 years during which he accomplished quite a bit. Won a ring with Philly then is all nba 1st team 3 times before going to the aba and winning an mvp there. Might be a bit early for him but I'm just throwing him out there for some discussion. McGinnis as well.

[Magic Is Magic]

Can someone kindly explain to me why someone like Reggie Miller is getting more traction than Kawhi Leonard? How can you rank Reggie over Kawhi? I'm genuinely curious where you came up with this?

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Clyde Drexler
Vote 2 - Artis Gilmore
Vote 3 - Gary Payon

Drexler was a uniquely talented player at the SG position, using his combination of size and athleticism to his advantage on both ends of the floor. Combine that with an excellent basketball IQ, and he was one of the more complete and versatile players we've seen in this league. While he didn't develop 3PT range until later in his career (26.8% from 84-91 vs. 33.3% from 92-98 on larger volume), he had few flaws in his game.

I've heard drexler get criticized here and there for not being able to get over the hump in his first 2 finals appearances. However, he went up against the defensive juggernaut pistons and all time great bulls, holding his own in both series. When he went on the amazing championship run with no HCA in houston, he played a major role in their success. It was even more impressive to see him perform at that level toward the end of his prime (year 12). See finals production here:

'90 (5 games) - 26.4 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 6.2 APG, 1.8 SPG, 59.8% TS, 118 ORtg

'92 (6 games) - 24.8 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 5.3 APG, 1.3 SPG, 52.2% TS, 113 ORtg

'95 (4 games) - 21.5 PPG, 9.5 RPG, 6.8 APG, 1 SPG, 56% TS, 126 ORtg

[Clyde Frazier]

Can someone kindly explain to me why someone like Reggie Miller is getting more traction than Kawhi Leonard? How can you rank Reggie over Kawhi? I'm genuinely curious where you came up with this?

Some of us value longevity and durability (AKA "total career value") over peak/handful of best seasons in this project. Kawhi's had a relatively short career as a star and his substantial load management and injury history is a negative. That said, the beauty of this project is everyone has their own criteria. The goal is to stick to that criteria with each vote.

[eminence]

1. Reggie Miller
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Clyde Drexler

Not as confident in this vote as I'd like, but running out of time and want to get something in.

See all 3 of these guys as solid 2nd tier stars with good longevity without huge weaknesses in their games who led very solid teams for some time.

Miller gets the 1st slot due being a bit of a revolutionary, most likely to be better utilized in later seasons. Solid volume, absurd efficiency scorer.

Schayes one of the few guys left to get his team over the line. Been quite a few threads back now, but I view him as a solidly positive defender and appreciate his longevity quite a bit.

Drexler's still a guy I need to look into a bit more, and I think he got a bit lucky in getting credit for his team, but he did wind up on a lot of solid teams through his career. Strong rebounder.

Gilmore/Pierce/Payton a few of the guys I considered for these slots.

[Cavsfansince84]

Can someone kindly explain to me why someone like Reggie Miller is getting more traction than Kawhi Leonard? How can you rank Reggie over Kawhi? I'm genuinely curious where you came up with this?

See, I feel the exact same way about people who put Kawhi in the top 40. 4 prime seasons along with a few more as a 3&D guy where he won dpoy. 1.5 great playoff runs(.5 due to it getting cut off with an injury). I don't see more value in that then what Reggie did in his 12+ years where he was leading the Pacers to ecf's and nearly taking out MJ's Bulls. 5-6 years from now I will likely be much higher on Kawhi but as of right now I don't see any basis at all for him being in the top 40. Plus on top of that, I think Kawhi is a horrible leader and him sitting out a season to force a trade is another thing.

[LA Bird]

Same votes as last time:

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Paul Pierce

Reggie - One of the best offensive players in the playoffs. All time level combination of volume and efficiency and maintained that production against the toughest defenses like the Knicks which even prime Jordan sometimes struggled against. The Pacers were a +7.5 postseason offense over a 10 year period, one of the best ever despite fairly little offensive talent besides Reggie. Great longevity and his off-ball style fits well next to other superstars.

Gilmore - Highest peak in ABA behind Dr J but never reached the same level in the NBA. His impact based on his missed games in 80 and 84 suggest solid impact but it is still concerning for a center to be on a below average defense for ten straight seasons. I feel like NBA Gilmore is similar to late 80s Moses in how they can go through the motion and get their 20/10 numbers despite being not near their peak levels.

Pierce - Solid all around skillet and one of the top impact players in both 15 year RAPM and prime/career WOWY. A great scorer who, like the other 00s guys, kind of get underrated historically for playing in the slowest era in post shot clock NBA. For example, if we compare the top scoring seasons between Pierce and Drexler,

01 Pierce: 25.3 ppg on 92.6 pace
02 Pierce: 26.1 ppg on 92.5 pace
03 Pierce: 25.9 ppg on 90.9 pace
06 Pierce: 26.8 ppg on 92.2 pace

88 Drexler: 27.0 ppg on 103.6 pace
89 Drexler: 27.2 ppg on 103.9 pace
90 Drexler: 23.3 ppg on 102.3 pace
92 Drexler: 25.0 ppg on 99.0 pace

Top PPG adjusted to 100 pace team
Pierce: 29.1, 28.5, 28.2, 27.3
Drexler: 26.2, 26.1, 25.3, 22.8

[Magic Is Magic]

Can someone kindly explain to me why someone like Reggie Miller is getting more traction than Kawhi Leonard? How can you rank Reggie over Kawhi? I'm genuinely curious where you came up with this?

See, I feel the exact same way about people who put Kawhi in the top 40. 4 prime seasons along with a few more as a 3&D guy where he won dpoy. 1.5 great playoff runs(.5 due to it getting cut off with an injury). I don't see more value in that then what Reggie did in his 12+ years where he was leading the Pacers to ecf's and nearly taking out MJ's Bulls. 5-6 years from now I will likely be much higher on Kawhi but as of right now I don't see any basis at all for him being in the top 40. Plus on top of that, I think Kawhi is a horrible leader and him sitting out a season to force a trade is another thing.

Kawhi only had 1.5 good playoff runs? Okay, maybe I can give you that but then how many good playoff runs did Reggie Miller have? Zero? Certainly zero by comparison, If I'm not mistaken the man never even made a Finals appearance. Yes Kawhi choked big time last year but he still has 2 DPOY awards and 2 Finals MVPs. The only two players in NBA history to win back-to-back DPOY and have at least 2 Finals MVPs is Kawhi and Hakeem, no one else. Kawhi is lacking in longevity but that's it. He has the rings, he is an efficient player, he plays both sides of the ball well. He has 2 FMVPs. Reggie vs Kawhi on defense is a no contest. I value longevity just like the others, that's why I think Kawhi hovers around the 27-33 range. I believe the only other guy with at least 2 FMVPs that is not yet ranked is Willis Reed.

[Magic Is Magic]

Can someone kindly explain to me why someone like Reggie Miller is getting more traction than Kawhi Leonard? How can you rank Reggie over Kawhi? I'm genuinely curious where you came up with this?

Some of us value longevity and durability (AKA "total career value") over peak/handful of best seasons in this project. Kawhi's had a relatively short career as a star and his substantial load management and injury history is a negative. That said, the beauty of this project is everyone has their own criteria. The goal is to stick to that criteria with each vote.

The only advantage I see Reggie having over Kawhi is his Regular Season win share totals because even if we are looking at Playoff win share totals Kawhi has already passed Reggie. Not too bad for a guy with bad longevity?

I value longevity as much as most but having a long career with zero success should not be rewarded the same as someone who had a long career with success IMO. For what it's worth my top 5 in order goes: LeBron, MJ, Kareem, Duncan, Russell. So I certainly value longevity. Do you mostly value longevity even if the player does not dominate anything and just exists? I'm just trying to understand the Reggie Miller hype because I don't get it when I look objectively and compare him to all players with the same criteria.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kawhi only had 1.5 good playoff runs? Okay, maybe I can give you that but then how many good playoff runs did Reggie Miller have? Zero? Certainly zero by comparison, If I'm not mistaken the man never even made a Finals appearance. Yes Kawhi choked big time last year but he still has 2 DPOY awards and 2 Finals MVPs. The only two players in NBA history to win back-to-back DPOY and have at least 2 Finals MVPs is Kawhi and Hakeem, no one else. Kawhi is lacking in longevity but that's it. He has the rings, he is an efficient player, he plays both sides of the ball well. He has 2 FMVPs. Reggie vs Kawhi on defense is a no contest. I value longevity just like the others, that's why I think Kawhi hovers around the 27-33 range. I believe the only other guy with at least 2 FMVPs that is not yet ranked is Willis Reed.

Come on now. Reggie Miller is regarded as one of the best playoff performers of all time and did make 1 finals in 2000 where they lost to the Lakers in 6. Like I said, in 5-6 years I'll likely be ready to consider Kawhi in that 25-40 range but as of right now I can't honestly put him in the top 45. Maybe not top 50. He's gained a lot by virtue of getting to play with the Spurs imo and I'll give him full credit for having a tremendous playoff run in 2019 but in terms of overall value I don't think he belongs with these other guys who had full careers of leading teams.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #38:

Reggie Miller - 5 (Doctor MJ, DQuinn1575, eminence, LA Bird, penbeast0)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (Dutchball97, Joao Saraiva)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Magic Is Magic)
Clyde Drexler - 2 (Clyde Frazier, Odinn21)
Artis Gilmore - 1 (trex_8063)
Dolph Schayes - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


13 votes requires 7 for a majority. Gilmore and Schayes are first eliminated, which transfers one more to Miller and one to Drexler.....

Miller - 6
Drexler - 3
Kawhi - 2
Cousy - 2

So Kawhi and Cousy are next eliminated, which transfers one more to Drexler and ghosts the other three (yay)......

Miller - 6
Drexler - 4
(ghosted) - 3

So I now call on the 3 ghost votes (euroleague, Magic Is Magic, and Joao Saraiva) to state their pick between Miller and Drexler, as quickly as possible.

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Magic Is Magic]

Clyde the Glide please and thank you.