RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #83 (Grant Hill)

[Clyde Frazier]

Hill over Lillard for me.

[penbeast0]

Why are you so low on Gus Williams? He kind of does everything you would want and he has had plenty of success.

So, I'm not as low on him as I was when we were in the RealGM Hall of Fame project, but I'll start from what I saw at the time:

1. Short, inefficient scorer.
2. Played on a team that won with defense, and his backcourt teammate was both the better floor general and defense.
3. Yes won a title and got to the finals twice...in possibly the absolute nadir of post-Mikan quality. Contenders in most years I'd expect to wipe the floor with those Seattle teams.
4. Weak longevity.

Now, as I've looked into him further I've recognized that he's one of the rare breed who actually gets more effective as a scorer in the playoffs. That's significant.

But for perspective, I think I'd prefer Baron Davis, who is also in the category of playing stronger in the playoffs.

Now something I'll say: I think Davis was better all throughout out his prime than Marion-without-Nash or probably anyone else from that 1999 draft class not named Manu. I think Davis warrants Top 100 consideration so I'm not saying definitively that Williams (or Marion for that matter) doesn't deserve consideration here. But Davis still isn't someone I'm looking to champion compared to the guys I am championing still, so yeah, Williams is not really someone I'm actively thinking about at the moment.

Your first two points on Gus Williams
(1) Gus and DJ were roughly equal on efficiency in the regular season; Gus clearly better in the postseason.
(2) DJ was clearly better defensively though Gus was above average but if you watched those teams (and I was a huge Bullets fan at the time so I was glued to those finals), Gus was clearly the floor general. Better at it statistically too with 30% more assist% and a lower turnover%. That was the pattern throughout his career too. Gus was a shoot first point but thoughout his career was more of a playmaker and creator for others than DJ.

As for Baron Davis, he had the talent to be a top 100 guy but he just couldn't stay healthy. After his 1st 3 years in the league where he showed his potential, he had maybe 2 more healthy seasons and his teams frequently either missed the postseason or he missed them breaking down. HE did have the amazing upset of the "we believe" Warriors over the Mavs but just wasn't consistent enough to be a top 100 guy. (See also Richardson, Michael Ray but with drug issues instead of health).

[trex_8063]

I'm gonna call this one early: presently Hill is leading Lillard 7-2.......there's no way Lillard is going to bridge that gap within the next 4-5 hours.

On the topic, I've tentatively added a provision to our protocol [I'll remove it if anyone objects] to avoid fruitless runoffs all together:

If, when validating a non-majority default winner, we find that one of the challengers has a Condorcet lead [on the default winner] of 4 or more votes, we simply eliminate the default winner. The limited participation at this stage is proving that a gap that large will never come close to being covered in a runoff......so why waste the time on it?

Does anyone object to such a provision?

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Doctor MJ]

I'm gonna call this one early: presently Hill is leading Lillard 7-2.......there's no way Lillard is going to bridge that gap within the next 4-5 hours.

On the topic, I've tentatively added a provision to our protocol [I'll remove it if anyone objects] to avoid fruitless runoffs all together:

If, when validating a non-majority default winner, we find that one of the challengers has a Condorcet lead [on the default winner] of 4 or more votes, we simply eliminate the default winner. The limited participation at this stage is proving that a gap that large will never come close to being covered in a runoff......so why waste the time on it?

Does anyone object to such a provision?

No objection from me, and I think as the project runner and vote tallier that's probably what you should do.

I do find myself thinking: Hey voters, make sure you place Lillard on your list (wherever you think is appropriate)!

[penbeast0]

No worries.