[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Hawks

[ZeppelinPage]

1. '63 Bob Pettit
Good RS, great playoffs--close to '59 so can't blame anyone for putting that season.

2. '59 Cliff Hagan
Can't go wrong with '58 or '59 really.

3. '97 Dikembe Mutombo
Good regular season, played well in playoffs. High impact on film and advanced numbers. Underrated as hell.

4. '88 Dominique Wilkins
Overrated but still one of the better Hawks seasons.

5. '68 Lenny Wilkens
Big fan of Lenny, smart PG and had solid numbers.

[Odinn21]

1. 1963 Bob Pettit
Quite an obvious choice. The only thing is the season selection, and I like performance in 1963 slightly better than 1959.

2. 1959 Cliff Hagan
Another obvious choice. It was quite the postseason run from him, especially with his efficiency. I think the biggest competition for a top spot for the Hawks is for this spot between Hagan and Mutombo. Deke might be the better player, though not so sure about that, and Hagan definitely had a more complete season.

3. 1997 Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest seasons by a defensive monster, easily.

4. 1988 Dominique Wilkins
Actually, I'm not high on Nique much, I have him as a low/mid impact volume scorer. But 1988 was the season his combination with Doc Rivers turned into an offensive competitiveness.

5. 1989 Moses Malone
Well, you know I had him in my initial shortlist and Moses improved the Hawks by nearly +1.5 NRtg over outgoing Kevin Willis. In the playoffs, the Hawks did not go as deep compared to the previous season but that is not on Moses himself. He performed great against the Bucks in a close series.
I compared him to every single other mention, this spot is between Moses, Wilkens, Hudson and Beaty for me. The other available names are just inferior. I think picking Moses in here might be on knowing and feeling confident more about him.

HMs; 1968 Lenny Wilkens, 1968 Zelmo Beaty, 1973 Lou Hudson

---

We have 16 hours until the deadline.

[Doctor MJ]

1. Bob Pettit, 1957-58 - can argue for a later year, but this Finals performance...

2. Cliff Hagan, 1957-58 - amazing to he was arguably even better than Pettit that year.

3. Dikembe Mutombo, 1996-97 - actually surprised most agree with me here, but good, DM deserves.

4. Dominique Wilkins, 1986-87 - hey, whatever Nique was doing, they built a great team with him as the thesis.

5. Lou Hudson, 1969-70 - hard to even know which of Sweet Lou, Zelmo, or Lenny, but Hudson led the best offense in the league without them. He's lacking in playoff bonafides, but still seems like a good man for last spot.

Other notes:

Mookie Blaylock has a case, but I'm not that confident in his ability to scale to a contender, nor his ability to make full-length 3's efficiently at volume. I actually think I'd rather have his teammate Steve Smith on my team.

What about those glorious '14-15 Hawks? I was hoping for at least one to get on this list, but it was not to be. For the record, it would be between Paul Millsap and Kyle Korver for me. I like Horford as a player a good deal, but I think Millsap really outshone him in their time together. That said, while I consider Millsap to be the best "all-around" player of the bunch, Korver was pretty clearly the most impactful, even in the playoffs. I think I might have gone with Korver had I ended up going with any of them.

[HeartBreakKid]

It makes sense that there are so many damn Hawks to consider. It's a franchise that's been around forever, almost always makes the playoffs for several years in most decades, pretty much is never a real threat to win a title except one period, and during that championship window was the only time they had a real superstar (Petitt).

Everyone was in ensemble casts. Nique Wilkins was really the only guy who went "solo" for a bit.

[LA Bird]

Maybe I am overthinking this but for a team which is supposed to have the unanimous #1 and #2 peaks in franchise history, the late 50s Hawks don't actually look that dominant compared to the cores of the other teams...

7.2 SRS with Dominique Wilkins, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis
5.5 SRS with Dikembe Mutombo, Mookie Blaylock, Christian Laettner, Steve Smith
4.8 SRS with Kyle Korver, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Jeff Teague
2.9 SRS with Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagan, Clyde Lovellette
2.4 SRS with Lenny Wilkens, Zelmo Beaty, Bill Bridges, Lou Hudson (half season)

I would say the top 4 (Pettit, Hagan, Nique, Mutombo) is clear but I need to think about the ordering as well as the 5th guy. I am probably not going to have time to get in a vote before the deadline though.

[HeartBreakKid]

Maybe I am overthinking this but for a team which is supposed to have the unanimous #1 and #2 peaks in franchise history, the late 50s Hawks don't actually look that dominant compared to the cores of the other teams...

7.2 SRS with Dominique Wilkins, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis
5.5 SRS with Dikembe Mutombo, Mookie Blaylock, Christian Laettner, Steve Smith
4.8 SRS with Kyle Korver, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Jeff Teague
2.9 SRS with Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagan, Clyde Lovellette
2.4 SRS with Lenny Wilkens, Zelmo Beaty, Bill Bridges, Lou Hudson (half season)

I would say the top 4 (Pettit, Hagan, Nique, Mutombo) is clear but I need to think about the ordering as well as the 5th guy. I am probably not going to have time to get in a vote before the deadline though.

Weren't SRS lower back then in general?

[Dutchball97]

Maybe I am overthinking this but for a team which is supposed to have the unanimous #1 and #2 peaks in franchise history, the late 50s Hawks don't actually look that dominant compared to the cores of the other teams...

7.2 SRS with Dominique Wilkins, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis
5.5 SRS with Dikembe Mutombo, Mookie Blaylock, Christian Laettner, Steve Smith
4.8 SRS with Kyle Korver, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Jeff Teague
2.9 SRS with Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagan, Clyde Lovellette
2.4 SRS with Lenny Wilkens, Zelmo Beaty, Bill Bridges, Lou Hudson (half season)

I would say the top 4 (Pettit, Hagan, Nique, Mutombo) is clear but I need to think about the ordering as well as the 5th guy. I am probably not going to have time to get in a vote before the deadline though.

Weren't SRS lower back then in general?

A bit. The more noticeable change is just the amount of teams. There weren't many terrible teams in the 50s that good teams could easily beat and raise their SRS, while they did all have to play the Celtics quite a few times. In the 58/59 season the 2.9 SRS happened in for the Hawks, the only really bad team was the Royals. The other teams were all in play-off contention, the only real reason the Royals weren't was because they had just lost Stokes. With every team being decently competitive it was common for even pretty good teams to have negative or only marginally positive SRS.

Both the 59 Hawks and the 87 Hawks (the 7.2 SRS team with Nique) got eliminated before even reaching the finals by teams with significantly worse SRS though so I'm not sure how heavy SRS should weigh in determining how good a team was to begin with.

[LA Bird]

Maybe I am overthinking this but for a team which is supposed to have the unanimous #1 and #2 peaks in franchise history, the late 50s Hawks don't actually look that dominant compared to the cores of the other teams...

7.2 SRS with Dominique Wilkins, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis
5.5 SRS with Dikembe Mutombo, Mookie Blaylock, Christian Laettner, Steve Smith
4.8 SRS with Kyle Korver, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Jeff Teague
2.9 SRS with Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagan, Clyde Lovellette
2.4 SRS with Lenny Wilkens, Zelmo Beaty, Bill Bridges, Lou Hudson (half season)

I would say the top 4 (Pettit, Hagan, Nique, Mutombo) is clear but I need to think about the ordering as well as the 5th guy. I am probably not going to have time to get in a vote before the deadline though.

Weren't SRS lower back then in general?

In terms of SRS rank during the years Hagan was playing 30+ minutes,

1958: 4th out of 8
1959: 3rd out of 8
1960: 4th out of 8
1961: 2nd out of 8
1962: 7th out of 9

They were above average for sure but not super great.

[Odinn21]

...

We have just under an hour until this one closes, just an fyi.

[Colbinii]

I had a large post written out last night but didn't hit enter.

1. 1963 Bob Pettit
2. 1997 Dikembe Mutombo
3. 1959 Cliff Hagan
4. 1988 Dominique Wilkins
5. 1970 Joe Caldwell

[Colbinii]

What are peoples thoughts on Hudson vs Caldwell for 1970. Joe Caldwell was a better playoff performer that year.

[Odinn21]

What are peoples thoughts on Hudson vs Caldwell for 1970. Joe Caldwell was a better playoff performer that year.

I think the season for Hudson is 1973. I'd probably prefer 1973 Hudson over 1970 Caldwell. For 1970 alone, yeah, Caldwell is the pick. Especially considering West basically owned Hudson's soul in the playoff series between the Hawks and the Lakers. Hudson's scoring performance was just abysmal and he was not Mutombo to excuse that kind of shooting performance with defense.

By the way, I have an OCD with punctuality and I will close this one in nearly 15 minutes. Should I count LA Bird's vote if he cast it an hour or so?

[HeartBreakKid]

What are peoples thoughts on Hudson vs Caldwell for 1970. Joe Caldwell was a better playoff performer that year.

I think Lou's peak is probably 73. I think Caldwell had a better season in 1970.

[Colbinii]

What are peoples thoughts on Hudson vs Caldwell for 1970. Joe Caldwell was a better playoff performer that year.

I think the season for Hudson is 1973. I'd probably prefer 1973 Hudson over 1970 Caldwell. For 1970 alone, yeah, Caldwell is the pick. Especially considering West basically owned Hudson's soul in the playoff series between the Hawks and the Lakers. Hudson's scoring performance was just abysmal and he was not Mutombo to excuse that kind of shooting performance with defense.

By the way, I have an OCD with punctuality and I will close this one in nearly 15 minutes. Should I count LA Bird's vote if he cast it an hour or so?

I think Hudson was probably better in 1973 but I am not going to change my vote even though you and HeartBreakKid said otherwise

Throw the man a bone!

[HeartBreakKid]

What are peoples thoughts on Hudson vs Caldwell for 1970. Joe Caldwell was a better playoff performer that year.

I think the season for Hudson is 1973. I'd probably prefer 1973 Hudson over 1970 Caldwell. For 1970 alone, yeah, Caldwell is the pick. Especially considering West basically owned Hudson's soul in the playoff series between the Hawks and the Lakers. Hudson's scoring performance was just abysmal and he was not Mutombo to excuse that kind of shooting performance with defense.

By the way, I have an OCD with punctuality and I will close this one in nearly 15 minutes. Should I count LA Bird's vote if he cast it an hour or so?

I think Hudson was probably better in 1973 but I am not going to change my vote even though you and HeartBreakKid said otherwise

Throw the man a bone!

Hudson needs a bone too! 5th place is a blood bath!

[LA Bird]

1. 1963 Bob Pettit
Difficult to pick a specific season with so little stat/video available but I think Pettit is #1.

2. 1999 Dikembe Mutombo
3. 1988 Dominique Wilkins
4. 1959 Cliff Hagan
Mutombo is one of the defensive GOATs and I think his dominance on defense is greater than either Nique or Hagan on offense. Nique is somewhat of a chucker but he had some pretty good team success as a first option. Hagan can be argued to be higher based on the small playoffs sample size but I feel like peak Mutombo/Wilkins together would have formed a much stronger team than what we saw from peak Pettit/Hagan.

5. 1997 Mookie Blaylock
He kind of cheated a little by taking advantage of the shortened 3pt line to boost his otherwise inefficient scoring efficiency into the positives but Blaylock was still an elite point guard defender, great passer, and one of the best +/- players even before Mutombo arrived. Fun fact: Blaylock and Curry are tied for the most consecutive 10+ on/off seasons at six each.

[Odinn21]

The Hawks results;

Code: Select all

 1. 12- 0-0-0-0 / 120 points / 1.000 share / '63 Bob Pettit
 2.  0-10-1-1-0 /  78 points / 0.650 share / '58 Cliff Hagan
 3.  0- 2-7-2-1 /  56 points / 0.467 share / '97 Dikembe Mutombo
 4.  0- 0-4-8-0 /  44 points / 0.367 share / '88 Dominique Wilkins
 5.  0- 0-0-0-4 /   4 points / 0.033 share / '68 Lenny Wilkens

 6.  0- 0-0-1-0 /   3 points / 0.025 share / '20 Trae Young
 7.  0- 0-0-0-2 /   2 points / 0.017 share / '73 Lou Hudson
 8.  0- 0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '68 Zelmo Beaty
 9.  0- 0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '15 Al Horford
10.  0- 0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '89 Moses Malone
11.  0- 0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '70 Joe Caldwell
12.  0- 0-0-0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '97 Mookie Blaylock

Results on Google Sheet

[Odinn21]

...

Your vote right on XX:59 did not help my OCD, lol. Of course, thanks for posting your vote.

Absolute bloodbath for that 5th spot. 8 different players in 1-4 point range on the tally.

[Doctor MJ]

Maybe I am overthinking this but for a team which is supposed to have the unanimous #1 and #2 peaks in franchise history, the late 50s Hawks don't actually look that dominant compared to the cores of the other teams...

7.2 SRS with Dominique Wilkins, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis
5.5 SRS with Dikembe Mutombo, Mookie Blaylock, Christian Laettner, Steve Smith
4.8 SRS with Kyle Korver, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Jeff Teague
2.9 SRS with Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagan, Clyde Lovellette
2.4 SRS with Lenny Wilkens, Zelmo Beaty, Bill Bridges, Lou Hudson (half season)

I would say the top 4 (Pettit, Hagan, Nique, Mutombo) is clear but I need to think about the ordering as well as the 5th guy. I am probably not going to have time to get in a vote before the deadline though.

A reasonable thing to bring up.

So first, as others have already said, the variance of SRS changes in eras. Back then, SRS's tended to be smaller.

But the other thing here is just that the Hawks tended to look like serious contenders in the playoffs.

In '56-57, Boston & St. Louis both went undefeated in their conference playoffs, then played a 7 game series with the final game decided by a single basket.

In '57-58, the Hawks won the title over Boston. 'Nuff said.

'58-59 is an exception to the rule. Hawks were a clear cut Top 2 team in the RS, stumbled in the playoffs. Worth noting that in that playoff series Hagan continued to look excellent - it was Pettit who stumbled, and I don't think anyone's in any doubt that Pettit's earned his place here.

'59-60 back to the finals. Once again takes Boston to 7 and is their toughest out.

'60-61 clear cut Top 2 RS team, and back to the finals again.

So we're looking at a half decade run here where the Hawks would easily be seen as the #2 most serious title contender even if they hadn't managed to win a chip.

I realize of course that in a single season project these other seasons don't factor in directly, but they help assuage any doubts I have that we need to see that core as standing out from the rest of the competition.

If the first epoch of the NBA was defined by the Lakers topping the Royals, and the third by the Celtics topping the Lakers. In between them, it's the Celtics topping the Hawks.

[HeartBreakKid]

Shout outs to Steve Smith - why? I don't know, I just feel like doing it.