[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Knicks

[70sFan]

What do you think about Guerin case for 5th spot?

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[homecourtloss]

#1. 1969 Willis Reed—two way impact, played really well offensively in the playoffs

#2. 1972 Clyde Frazier—two way impact from the guard spot. Just incredibly efficient before the three point era. That little pull up shot he had...nobody could defend it and subjectively one of the aesthetically pleasing players. Big man impact in the ‘60s and ‘70s is more appealing as part as peaks go though.

#3. 1990 Patrick Ewing—by far his best offense though wanted to also go with 1994 Ewing for his peaks defense.

#4. 1984 Bernard King—was even better in 1985 regular season offensively but got injured. Great run in the playoffs against a rising soon to be great Detroit team and already great Boston team that got a GOAT level game 7 from Bird to take out the Knicks.

#5. 2013 Carmelo Anthony—was tempted to put 2014 as the Knicks were absolutely trash tier without him but Knicks offense was really good in 2013 and equivalent to the best offense in the league with Melo on court.

[Odinn21]

I changed my vote from Reed/Frazier order to Frazier/Reed order because I went through some extensive footages. In terms of quality and impact they brought in the environment they were in, Reed being more fortunate and also missing 2 important playoffs games became a bigger factor than I initially had.
I might also consider bumping Ewing up a place over Reed, as I'm going through '90 and '94 games available.

By the way, this vote is going entirely different from the latest peaks project we had.
Ewing was #23 and he was in that Kobe-Chuck range tier.
Reed was #36.
Frazier was #40 as the last player on the list.

Looking at the voter pool on there and in here, I'm the only one who's participated in both projects and I had Ewing on my ballot in that project way before I had Reed and Frazier. But I'm not so sure if that's inconsistent thinking on my part or the talks already being there making a person blind to other possibilities. I mean Ewing started to get considerations way before Reed and Frazier did. So, they were already in mind to think about. Or it's just inconsistent thinking.

Also curious about there's a tangible difference between thinking it as a franchise and thinking it as just a general opinion.
I should indulge these for further before this one runs up.

What do you think about Guerin case for 5th spot?

He definitely crossed my mind. The issue with him is that Carmelo Anthony had a similar season to Guerin's best with also playoff time, and more importantly, Anthony is a more known quantity. I think that's making a difference in here.

[HeartBreakKid]

1) 1972 Walt Frazier - Very impressive player on film, he sometimes made Jerry West look second rate. His defense is known, but his shooting and passing ability are very underrated. Frazier is not often seen as a pass first PG because his APG is very modest (as are his stats in general), but it was more due to the system he played in. As O_6 said he's an incredibly complete player and I think his gear on offense puts him other the other two bigs in Knicks history.

2) 1993 Patrick Ewing - I think he became a better defender later than 1990, and I am not big on "outlier" years. Ewing though did prove he could volume score over 20 PPG even outside of 1990 but his efficiency is not as good. Reed is a better scorer for sure, more smooth touch and he can over power players with athleticism - but I think Ewing's defense is truly oppressive.

3) 69 Willis Reed - I like the way Reed's game looks and he has good physical attributes, but his boxscore stats make me a bit hesitant to rate him higher.

4) 1984 Bernard King - He's the best scorer in Knicks history by a long shot. Only problem is he doesn't do anything else, and the method he scores from is mainly from post play. He's ridiculously one dimensional compared to other all timers, but an all time scoring season none the less.

5) 2013 Carmelo Anthony - He did a great job anchoring a team that didn't have a lot of talent to an excellent offense. Marbury has better boxscore stats imo, but not sure if he was more impactful overall. Not sold on DeBusschere's offense and not sure how to gauge how good his defense was relative to Carmelo's offense. Gallatin is the most interesting player, I was thinking there has to be a super old school Knicks guy who was holding it down - I don't know enough about him, but he might be the guy to go with. Marcus Camby reputation has generally suffered as being the guy who's defensive impact is overrated because he had high BPG, but I do wonder if his actual defensive impact was still overall better than what Melo gives you.

[Dr Positivity]

What do you think about Guerin case for 5th spot?

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I almost changed my #5 vote to him just now, but the combination of bad team, high minutes, high pace might make his stats inflated. I'll stick with DeBusschere impact.

[Jaivl]

What do you think about Guerin case for 5th spot?

He definitely crossed my mind. The issue with him is that Carmelo Anthony had a similar season to Guerin's best with also playoff time, and more importantly, Anthony is a more known quantity. I think that's making a difference in here.

That's the difference maker when it's a tight comparison, IMO. It definitely skews the lists towards the modern era, but it's really hard to argue the other way around.

[Clyde Frazier]

1) 1990 Patrick Ewing - Being at his peak athletically in 1990, Ewing was a workhorse on both ends of the floor. His combination of volume scoring on great efficiency and ability to anchor a defense should be worthy of this range. Led the 13th ranked SRS knicks to a 1st round upset of the 8th ranked SRS celtics in the first round. Would end up being eliminated by the eventual champion pistons, put still put up a valiant effort in the series, with 27.2 PPG. 9.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.2 BPG on 56% TS. Pistons also ranked 2nd in defense that season. If only Riley got his hands on Ewing a few rs earlier...

2) 1972 Walt Frazier - He’s arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation, could run an offense well, yet was far from ball dominant in his overall play. He also proved his ability to step up in the playoffs over multiple finals / championship runs.

I'd like to go with one of the championship years, but 72 was his best combo of RS and PS, so sticking with that for now. Reed didn't play in the finals, so the knicks just had no match for wilt, who put up 19.4 PPG and 23.2 RPG on 60% from the field. West was actually held to 19.8 PPG on 32.5% from the field in the series (24.8 PPG on 47.7% FG in RS)! Clyde was certainly doing work in that series on both ends of the court.

RS: 23.2 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.8 APG, 57.6% TS (+7.2 rTS), .223 WS/48

PS: 24.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 6.1 APG, 58.6% TS, .227 WS/48

Matching / exceeding his already stellar reg season play is very impressive. A quick note about frazier's defense: people tend to say "racking up steals doesn't mean you're a good defender", but that's typically referring to guys who gamble on D for the steal. Frazier rarely did that. He got his steals by playing the passing lanes, and uniquely knocking the ball out of the players' hands by tapping it from behind. His size at 6'4" allowed him to guard both positions, and he was quick enough to body up smaller guys and make it difficult for them.

3) 1970 Willis Reed - Fine with '69, too as it's his statistical peak in the playoffs, but prefer to focus on 70 here. He was certainly deserving of winning reg season MVP that season, leading the knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7% FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS (+4.1 rTS) and .227 WS/48 in 81 GP.

On their way to the championship in 1970, willis helped the knicks knock off 2 of the most dominant centers of all time in wilt and kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against wilt in his later years.

I don’t doubt that reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP that year as well. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the 70 finals:

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As the lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.

4) 1984 Bernard King - RS: 77 GP, 26.3 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1 SPG, 57.2% FG, 77.9% FT, 61.9% TS, 119 ORTG, .218 WS/48

PS: 12 GP, 34.8 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 3 APG, 1.2 SPG, .5 BPG, 57.4% FG, 75.6% FT, 62% TS, 125 ORTG, .234 WS/48

He exceeded his already stellar regular season production in the playoffs across the board, and this was while playing through injuries as I’ll detail below. It was one of the most impressive post season performances in the modern era.At his peak, king was one of the most dynamic scorers the league had seen. He was more methodical than flashy, but he knew what he was good at and kept going to it. His turnaround jumper was so lethal that he didn't even have to look at the hoop when releasing the shot. It was all in 1 quick motion where the defender really had no chance to block it. He was also very bull-like in the open court. Not a high leaper, but extremely powerful with long strides getting to the rim.

He was probably best known for his 1st round game 5 clincher against the pistons in 84:

In a critical and decisive Game 5, Bernard King was his usual unstoppable self putting up 40 points as the Knicks held a double-digit lead with under two minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. Then Thomas decided to take things into his own hands by putting on a performance of epic proportions, tallying 16 points within the game’s final 94 seconds, to force overtime.

King and Thomas exchanged offensive blows like a heavyweight title fight, with King getting the final blow by jamming an offensive put-back in the games final moments, giving him a game high 46 points and the Knicks a 3-2 series win. King showed a national audience that he would become one of the game’s most prolific scoring machines before injuries robbed him of his explosiveness. Game 5 was also arguably the moment that put a young “Zeke” on par with the NBA’s elite.

http://www.theshadowleague.com/articles/the-epic-battle-of-bernard-king-vs-isiah-thomas

Notice the splints on both of King's hands…

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The Knicks would go on to lose to the eventual NBA champion celtics in 7 games, as he played through injuries and still averaged 29.1 PPG on 59.7% TS in the series. The guy was just relentless. The celtics also ranked 1st in SRS and 3rd in defense that season.

"The key was his preparation," said former Knicks coach and ESPN analyst Hubie Brown. Part of that preparation included practicing thousands of shots from what King called his "sweet spots." In the half court, he identified three points along the baseline out to the sideline, then extended an imaginary line from a halfway point up the lane to the sideline with three more, then three more extended from the foul line to the sideline. He did the same on the other side of the lane.

Within the lane he identified four spots from the rim to the top of the key. These 22 spots, all within 18 feet of the basket, created a matrix of areas from which he felt supremely confident he could score. If a team tried to deny him the ball on offense, he would move from one sweet spot to another."He had the ability to see what all five positions were doing. That's how he could handle double- and triple-teams, because he knew where everyone would be," Brown said. "He knew how to create space for the high-percentage shot or find the guy who was open."

http://espn.go.com/nba/halloffame13/story/_/id/9653879/bernard-king-ahead

5) 2013 Carmelo Anthony - Peak carmelo developed into one of the best offensive players in the league. The “iso melo” stigma really became an outdated narrative as you saw all he really needed was a decent PG rotation to keep the ball moving (a little different, but billups certainly got the best out of him in denver). He became one of the better off the ball players in 12-13, actually shooting more efficiently and on higher volume than durant in catch and shoot situations. His transition to a great 3 pt shooter also opened up his game, and he stepped into transition 3s about as well as anyone in the league. Knicks won 54 games, ranking 7th in SRS and carmelo finished 3rd in MVP voting. They had a tough out to the pacers in 6 games in the 2nd round when kidd literally stopped hitting shots (he went scoreless in the series) and tyson chandler later revealed he had an "undisclosed illness" in the playoffs.

[Odinn21]

The Knicks results;

Code: Select all

1. 6-5-2- 0-0 / 105 points / 0.808 share / '72 Walt Frazier
2. 5-3-5- 0-0 /  96 points / 0.738 share / '69 Willis Reed
3. 2-5-5- 1-0 /  83 points / 0.638 share / '90 Patrick Ewing
4. 0-0-1-12-0 /  41 points / 0.315 share / '84 Bernard King
5. 0-0-0- 0-7 /   7 points / 0.054 share / '13 Carmelo Anthony

6. 0-0-0- 0-4 /   4 points / 0.031 share / '72 Dave DeBusschere
7. 0-0-0- 0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '99 Marcus Camby
8. 0-0-0- 0-1 /   1 points / 0.008 share / '05 Stephon Marbury

Results on Google Sheet

[LA Bird]

I didn't have time to vote in this but I am surprised Ewing finished 3rd. It feels like winning rings is emphasized very heavily because voters are looking at a player's value from a franchise's perspective when it should really be no different than ranking player peaks in general but with a franchise criteria.

[Colbinii]

I didn't have time to vote in this but I am surprised Ewing finished 3rd. It feels like winning rings is emphasized very heavily because voters are looking at a player's value from a franchise's perspective when it should really be no different than ranking player peaks in general but with a franchise criteria.

Are you implying you believe Ewing should be higher?

[Odinn21]

I didn't have time to vote in this but I am surprised Ewing finished 3rd. It feels like winning rings is emphasized very heavily because voters are looking at a player's value from a franchise's perspective when it should really be no different than ranking player peaks in general but with a franchise criteria.

I already voiced my concern over this. My initial vote had Reed/Frazier/Ewing order. Although I've been confident about placing Frazier over Ewing peak for peak for a while now. But Reed vs. Ewing is still an interesting debate. I don't think it's given that Ewing was better than Reed, especially considering how well Reed performed against all-time great competition in 1969 and 1970. But I definitely see where you're coming from.

[mikejames23]

Nice to see Carmelo make it. He's finally being given some respect.

[TroubleS0me]

Randle is on his way..

[LA Bird]

I didn't have time to vote in this but I am surprised Ewing finished 3rd. It feels like winning rings is emphasized very heavily because voters are looking at a player's value from a franchise's perspective when it should really be no different than ranking player peaks in general but with a franchise criteria.

Are you implying you believe Ewing should be higher?

Yeah, I expected Ewing to finish #1 in this thread. This board had Ewing ranked by far the highest among Knicks players in all of the past peaks projects:

2012 List
#19 Ewing
#34 Frazier
#36 King
(Project died at #37 before anyone voted for Reed)

2015 List
#21 Ewing
#32 Frazier
#39 Reed

2019 List
#23 Ewing
#36 Reed
#40 Frazier

[Colbinii]

I didn't have time to vote in this but I am surprised Ewing finished 3rd. It feels like winning rings is emphasized very heavily because voters are looking at a player's value from a franchise's perspective when it should really be no different than ranking player peaks in general but with a franchise criteria.

Are you implying you believe Ewing should be higher?

Yeah, I expected Ewing to finish #1 in this thread. This board had Ewing ranked by far the highest among Knicks players in all of the past peaks projects:

2012 List
#19 Ewing
#34 Frazier
#36 King
(Project died at #37 before anyone voted for Reed)

2015 List
#21 Ewing
#32 Frazier
#39 Reed

2019 List
#23 Ewing
#36 Reed
#40 Frazier

I think many are drawing a parallel of "Best season with a franchise" with "Best story line".

In the current Los Angeles Lakers thread, my reasoning is something I decided to audible to after the Sacramento Kings team thread.

Instead of ranking these seasons by "Best", I'm trying to instead focus in on "Who gives me the best odds to win a championship in a single season". I would agree Ewing definitely would be #1 for the Knicks in that regard.