[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Pistons

[Doctor MJ]

Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.

One thing I'll say about Hill though: I think he's be a great helio today. Give the man proper spacing with weapons to pass to, I think you're talking about a legit poor man's LeBron.

He had more than "proper spacing" for his time (Mills, Hunter, Dumars with 16 3pga @ 39% in his peak, plus Allan Houston @ +40% before that), and that's what counts after all.

Completely disagree on the “what counts” perspective.

Guys who are better playmakers benefit more for better shooters around them than lesser playmakers, thus are more valuable in a league with more mature shooting capacity.


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[Owly]

Hill never had a lengthy post season, and his play dropped off tremendously in the post-season.

One thing I'll say about Hill though: I think he's be a great helio today. Give the man proper spacing with weapons to pass to, I think you're talking about a legit poor man's LeBron.

He had more than "proper spacing" for his time (Mills, Hunter, Dumars with 16 3pga @ 39% in his peak, plus Allan Houston @ +40% before that), and that's what counts after all.

True ... but at the same time Mills's 3pt% spikes up on Hill's arrival, drops when he goes to Miami, comes back up in 2000 in Detroit then drops off in a small sample in Indiana. Unless you count his one game season in '99 his worst 3pt% with Hill is comfortably better than any other year of his career.

I guess some of that is luck, Mills improving this skill (but note the regression in Miami) but also Hill's getting him great looks and I don't know that he spaces the floor on a team where Hill doesn't help establish him as a weapon. Hill is generating a lot of good looks to get these %s.

[homecourtloss]

Man, Odinn21 must be pulling out his hair looking at all these posts but no lists

1. 1974 Lanier. Monster defender, highly efficient offensive player
2. 2005 Rasheed Wallace. His 2004 run was incredible but only 20 something games. 2006 was also very, very good (Pistons with him on court were +12.2 per 100 possession but he wasn’t as good in the playoffs.
3. 1985 Isiah Thomas. Peak Isiah here.
4. 2007 Billups. Great offensive impact
5. 2004 Ben Wallace. Peak defensive Big Ben.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Grant Hill 1997 - One of the most talented Pistons and Hill is an excellent RAPM player in 99 and 00 numbers we have (7th in 99 and 14th in 00 on ascreamingacrossthecourt numbers), while his 97 raw +/- is worse than the following seasons the team results are great at 54 Ws. His playoff efficiency is mediocre but I can't vote for 2000 with his injury and 1999 is a worse regular season than 97 or 00 although his playoff performance is good.

2. Bob Lanier 1974 - The Pistons 52 W season, I'd guess this is one of his better defensive seasons with a solid 3 blocks. Good all around game. Excellent in playoffs. Played in great center era although I rate 70s lower than late 90s.

3. Isiah Thomas 1985 - There isn't that many elite true PGs before the 90s or so, looking at the top guys this year it's basically just him and Magic. 14 assists a game is no joke, solid scorer and ball thief as well. Good in playoffs.

4. Chauncey Billups 2006 - Big fan of his game, shooting, basketball IQ, solid D. Flip turns the Pistons into more offensively orientated which favors Billups style of play leading to 5th MVP season.

5. Bill Laimbeer 1989 - Instead of picking between the Wallaces or Rodman I'm gonna go a different direction and take Laimbeer who I suspect was the real best player on the champion Pistons. There are several defensive bigs better than Laimbeer however I like his offensive game more than Ben, Rodman and Sheed.

HM: Ben Wallace, Rodman, Rasheed, Dave Bing, Blake Griffin, Adrian Dantley

[Dr Positivity]

as someone who is not familiar with rodman except in the bulls (and to be honest i didnt usually put much attention on him compared to pippen or jordan when watching bulls games)

how was his game like in the pistons?

i know he played more like a wing than as a interior player, and i have heard he was less rebound focused amd that older rodman sometimes statpadded rebounds to defense detrimento (not idea if true)

dos he have a bigger offensive role?, was his defense better?, was rodman really rebound padding in his bulls years compared to detroit?

Pistons Rodman is known for being one of the best man to man defenders in history and being one of the most versatile defenders ever in terms of guarding 1 through 5.

[Jaivl]

One thing I'll say about Hill though: I think he's be a great helio today. Give the man proper spacing with weapons to pass to, I think you're talking about a legit poor man's LeBron.

He had more than "proper spacing" for his time (Mills, Hunter, Dumars with 16 3pga @ 39% in his peak, plus Allan Houston @ +40% before that), and that's what counts after all.

Completely disagree on the “what counts” perspective.

Guys who are better playmakers benefit more for better shooters around them than lesser playmakers, thus are more valuable in a league with more mature shooting capacity.


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Owly makes a good point, but he did have one of the best spacings in the league for his time. Projecting him in the current league, with current spacing, is a time travel argument that I'm not sure is in the spirit of the project.

Man, Odinn21 must be pulling out his hair looking at all these posts but no lists

Shhh, I'm preparing bbq, don't have time to think with by brain, only with my gut.

[Dutchball97]

1. Bob Lanier, 1973/74 - Great 2-way impact and probably the best regular season in Pistons history. He showed up in the post-season as well, which makes this the best all around season for the franchise. The margins between the players here are probably the closest for any team so a lot of these placements are pretty much interchangeable.

2. Chauncey Billups, 2007/08 - I think it's an interesting discussion who the best player was for the 04 championship Pistons and the arguments people in this thread have given for Rasheed and/or Ben over Billups are solid. Billups was just solidifying himself as a star then and would become even better in the next few years. I was tempted to go with his 05 season due to his incredibly high level of play on a very deep run but his 08 regular season stands out as his best imo. I think his 08 regular season rivals Lanier and Hill for top regular season in franchise history and his play-offs were one of his best as well.

3. Isiah Thomas, 1984/85 - One of the most notorious players for stepping his game up massively in the post-season. His 85 season stands out as one season where that wasn't really the case. He played at a similar level to his regular season but this wasn't a case of him not stepping up like he usually does. In fact his 85 post-season is among his best runs (although I'd give a slight edge to 87, 88 and 90 due to those play-offs being of similar quality but in deeper runs). It's just that his 84/85 regular season stands out as by far his best. He is pretty much a toss up with Billups but when the margins are this close you just need to pick one and accept that they can't both be second.

4. Ben Wallace, 2002/03 - His 02-06 stretch is pretty much the same to me, at least in the regular season so I went with what I consider his best post-season run. A true leader and a defensive monster who had his most impactful offensive play-offs as well this year.

5. Grant Hill, 1996/97 - Maybe a bit of an uncharacteristic pick but I notice that I'm starting to put less emphasis on the post-season and a bit more on the regular season. In the top 100 project I kept prioritizing the post-season in order to remain consistent in my approach throughout the project. I think it was Odinn who mentioned recently how the post-season is usually the determining factor for the very best players as they all had incredibly strong regular seasons but when you get to the 40-50 range that isn't always the case anymore. I agree with this and I think I've agreed with it for a while now but I didn't allow it to really impact my decisions too much for the consistency reasoning. I do still value the post-season quite heavily compared to most but I won't be as absolute on it anymore. Hill's 97 post-season wasn't even that bad, just disappointing compared to his regular season. I thought seriously about going for 58 Yardley here as that is a great all round season but Hill has an argument for the best regular season for the Pistons and his play-offs were decent enough for the combination to be top 5 worthy imo.

Yardley pretty much just didn't get in because of his relatively weak competition, while not really playing at a noticeably higher level than the other candidates. With Rasheed I'm enamored by his style of play and he's one of my first choices for the PF position for All Time teams but I'm not sure he has that single season peak to warrant putting him top 5 here. Plenty of other good candidates like Larry Foust, Laimbeer, Rodman, Dantley, Blake, Stackhouse as well. This has to be by far the hardest franchise so far (not sure if any of the other remaining teams could challenge them on that front).

[70sFan]

1. 1973/74 Bob Lanier - very underrated player historically. I'm not even sure if that's his best season per minute, but I have to give it the edge over late 1970s seasons when he missed significant time in RS. One of the most impactful players ever from WOWY numbers and similar metrics, Pistons were absolutely horrible everytime Lanier missed some time. He was also one of the finest postseason performers ever, his skillset allowed him to be very resilient against quality defenses and his defense was good enough to earn the first spot.

2. 1984/85 Isiah Thomas - I'm not high on Thomas, but I'll give him the benefit of doubt here. Despite lack of efficiency, he was very good playmaker and he wasn't liability on defense either.

3. 2003/04 Ben Wallace - massive defensive impact overcomes weaknesses on offensive end.

4. 1996/97 Grant Hill - again, I don't love how Hill's game translated to postseason and his defense wasn't anything special at his peak. I can't deny that he was outstanding player at his peak though.

5. 2007/08 Chauncey Billups - very, very tough choice at the last spot. Pistons franchise is full of excellent players who played well within their roles. Billups gets here to me because his season seems to be the most complete, but other choices are available there.

HM to 1956 Larry Foust, 1963 Bailey Howell, 1968 Dave DeBusschere, 1971 Dave Bing, 1987 Adrian Dantley, 1989 Bill Laimbeer, 1992 Dennis Rodman, 1991 Joe Dumars, 2005 Rasheed Wallace... so many options.

[Doctor MJ]

Man this was hard.

1. '73-74 Bob Lanier - I've got a weaker understanding of him than I'd like, but the argument for him at #1 is clear.

2. '03-04 Ben Wallace - A magical year as everyone knows. One thing: People are arguing for Sheed over Ben, and I totally get seeing it that way in general, but '03-04 was THE year for the defense, and while the team's defense didn't become truly impenetrable until Sheed got there - and Sheed's RS +/- numbers bear that out - it has to be remembered that Ben was there all year (RS +/- not apples to apples), and that Ben has the clear cut edge over everyone else on the team by +/- in the playoffs.

3. '05-06 Chauncey Billups - Became I think the best all around Piston after the championship.

4. '89-90 Isiah Thomas - Really not sure if Billups should be above Isiah here, but I can't deny I have more confidence in Billups scaling his game up against stronger offensive competition.

5. '96-97 Grant Hill - Quite possibly the best of the bunch if surrounded using modern basketball strategy, but less of a slam dunk based on what he actually showed.

HM: Foust, Yardley, Howell, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, Sheed, Prince

HHM: McDermott, Jeannette

[Jaivl]

1. 1974 Bob Lanier (+4.25) - All evidence points to him being in a KG-esque situation, and he passed with flying colors. He may honestly be the most underrated player ever, strong top 50 contender upon reevaluation IMO.
2. 1985 Isiah Thomas (+4.25) - Extremely strong lone bird season. Absurd playoffs give him the nod vs 84.
3. 1997 Grant Hill (+4.25) - Detroit's on/off confuses me. Anyway, great defender that proved that could build an elite offense if given enough shooting. Kind of crumbled in the playoffs (although who didn't against Atlanta? Not even Jordan was immune) or he'd most definitely be #1.
4. 2006 Chauncey Billups (+3.75) - the all-defense 04 Pistons somehow became better on offense than on defense by 2006. And were probably even better by it. And the primary playmaking engine and most valuable scorer was...? Yeah I do think he peaked as high as Stockton.
5. 2004 Ben Wallace (+3.10) - hah who cares about offense, just be dpoy lol. The defense exploded from "great" to "GOAT" with Sheed, but there's no "great" defense with that Billups/Hamilton/rookie Prince/Okur core if not for him.

HM: 04 Sheed Wallace (good enough to enter, but not really a "Detroit season"), mid 80s Laimbeer

[Odinn21]

A little less than 4 hours left on the clock for this one.

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1. 1985 Isiah Thomas
It's a shame that we overcorrect his reputation for the title winning sides by going too much in the other direction. Young Zeke was a beast. His performance against the Celtics in the playoffs was quite like CP3's performance against the Lakers in 2011.
(Fwiw, I strongly disagree with putting peak Billups over peak Zeke btw.)

2. 1997 Grant Hill
This is the season earned Grant Hill his name. He was capable of doing so much with such quality and impact.

3. 1974 Bob Lanier
4. 2004 Ben Wallace
These two feel pretty interchangeable. I guess I like Lanier's more polished and overall more complete play better.

5. 1992 Dennis Rodman
Surprised that Rodman got little to no recognition in this one. Goat level rebounder, near goat level defender with slight positive offensive impact.
I feel bad about leaving Billups out but if we can appreciate Wallace for what he did in 2003 and 2004, Rodman was not that different in terms of styles.

[Odinn21]

The Pistons results;

Code: Select all

1. 5-1-1-0-0 / 62 points / 0.775 share / '74 Bob Lanier
2. 1-3-3-1-0 / 49 points / 0.613 share / '85 Isiah Thomas
3. 1-1-1-1-2 / 27 points / 0.338 share / '97 Grant Hill
4. 0-1-2-2-2 / 25 points / 0.313 share / '04 Ben Wallace
5. 0-1-1-4-1 / 25 points / 0.313 share / '06 Chauncey Billups

6. 1-1-0-0-0 / 17 points / 0.213 share / '05 Rasheed Wallace
7. 0-0-0-0-2 /  2 points / 0.025 share / '90 Dennis Rodman
8. 0-0-0-0-1 /  1 points / 0.013 share / '89 Bill Laimbeer

Results on Google Sheet