Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant?

[Stalwart]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

[Snakebites]

We've had this one before. Without committing to a number, I'll say that he has the widest "reasonable" range of any guy who's generally considered a top 10 candidate.

It all depends on how much you value accolades, rings and volume numbers vs. analytics and efficiency stats. And how harshly you judge his defensive decline after the first several years of his career. His All-Defensive accolades paint the picture of a GOAT level defensive guard, while in reality he was merely "very good" in the early parts of his career.

If you consider accolades, rings and volume numbers to be more important you've got him comfortably in the top 10. On the other end if you think that advanced metrics and efficiency are super-important and hold his later defense against him you might have him in the low 20s. The correct position is probably somewhere in between. I generally have him in the early teens.

[Stalwart]

If you consider accolades, rings and volume numbers to be more important you've got him comfortably in the top 10. On the other end if you think that advanced metrics and efficiency are super-important and hold his later defense against him you might have him in the low 20s. The correct position is probably somewhere in between. I generally have him in the early teens.

It shouldn't be an either/or. It should all be factored in and weighed in an appropriate manner. If you factor in both his real world results and accomplishments as well as analytical theory and philosophy he still lands comfortably inside the top 10 or 11. You have to actually ignore real world, on court results and accomplishments to put him that low. You have to go back and remove accolades and discredit accomplishments.

Kobe seems to be the guy who this happens to the most. Thats a result of narrative, bias, and Jordan/Lebron agendas.

[DWhiteMamba]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

Ah yes, the stats are out to get Kobe. All of them. Advanced stats, volume stats, wins, etc. I remember when Lebron overtook Kobe as a player in 2007 and Kobe fans around the internet refused to accept it. So alot of Lebron fans were like "ok, what metrics would Bron have to hit next season for you to accept he is better". Some metrics were floated by various fans, including raw stats, efficiency levels, team wins, a superior East/West win record, etc, and Lebron then went on to hit them all in 09 and 10 by such insane degrees that there was no argument he'd exceed the benchmarks set for him. Kobe fans backtracked and still wouldn't accept it, because they never will.

Kobe is a great player. I wish my team had a Kobe Bryant right now, some of the more homeristic Spurs fans are looking at Primo and thinking "if we squint, could he be our Kobe?" Unfortunately he has a large section of vocal fans who are completely unobjective about where he ranks, and it makes it harder to like him. The above post contains a good example of this, as it puts the phrase "he needed Shaq" in quote marks, like that's a debate. Obvious Kobe needed Shaq. Were you watching those series? Kobe needed Shaq way, way more than Shaq needed Kobe. There's a reason those finals MVPs went the way they did.

The top 10 all-time list is an insanely high bar to reach. Kobe at one time did indeed have a case as a fringe top 10 all-time player. I personally never had him there, but it was at least arguable. Unfortunately for him the bar isn't static. In the years since Kobe came onto the scene alot of other great players have been in the NBA, and have just been better than him so that getting into the top 10 is harder than it used to be. Larry Bird for a long time was a consensus top 10 guy. People used to talk about an "immortal 6" with Bird in it. Now, with all the greats who have come onto the scene since he played, Bird is arguably not even in the top 10 anymore. Bird fans are doubtless just as unhappy about this as Kobe fans. It sounds so much better to say a guy was "top 10", instead of "somewhere in the teens". Unfortunately time moves on, and that is where we are. There are too many guys who Kobe simply has no argument over; including guys who weren't in the top 10 lists 20 years ago, but are firmly ahead of him now, including Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, KG, and very soon KD, Curry and Giannis probably. I'm not sure why this is such a shock. Kobe won a single MVP in his whole career, and he was extremely lucky to win it. It was widely (and rightly) viewed as a lifetime achievement award because none of the other candidates had a rock solid case. 2008 was the only year he was even close to winning the MVP.

[Dutchball97]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

By your logic you're also just another guy on a message board and your suggestion to only listen to players/coaches is worth exactly the same as other people's suggestions to look at advanced metrics.

[Statlanta]

I think he can go as low as 20, if you truly hated him.

Jordan/Alcindor/Olajuwon/James/Russell/Chamberlain/O'Neal/West/Robertson/Erving/Malone/Nowitzki/Bird/Johnson/Garnett/Wade/Robinson/Curry/Durant

[eminence]

Being pretty high on longevity I think the lowest I could go would be about #20, so maybe someone with less emphasis there could push him into the mid 20s.

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Oscar
West
KAJ
DrJ
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Jordan
K.Malone
Robinson
Shaq
KG
Duncan
Dirk
LeBron
CP3

The ones I could somewhat reasonably see with my criteria.

[Dr Positivity]

Probably low 20s. You could make a moderate case for players like Moses, Barkley, Paul.

[NO-KG-AI]

While MVP awards for a single season can be shaky and not indicative of who is the best, I do find it very curious that people are pretending the 2000’s were just the Kobe Bryant era and he was running the decade, and that the “stat nerds” are trying to re-write history.

The truth is, Kobe was top 2 in MVP voting only twice for a 20 year period because he was not seen as a dominant, era defining player who has any legit argument to the GOAT candidates. He’s firmly top 5 of his own era, but he’s not firmly top 5-10 all time at all, and is a long distance from the top 3-4. His MVP he did have was not a runaway or even a lock MVP, and his second place finish was a distant second(he had 2 first place votes, behind 109 for LeBron, and 7 for Wade).

People need to really get over the fact that players they don’t like or root for are better than their hero. It happens.

[DQuinn1575]

There are too many guys who Kobe simply has no argument over; including guys who weren't in the top 10 lists 20 years ago, but are firmly ahead of him now, including Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, KG, and very soon KD, Curry and Giannis probably. I'm not sure why this is such a shock. Kobe won a single MVP in his whole career, and he was extremely lucky to win it. It was widely (and rightly) viewed as a lifetime achievement award because none of the other candidates had a rock solid case. 2008 was the only year he was even close to winning the MVP.

You give Kobe's single mvp as a large indicator of why he is behind a list of 7 players, 3 of whom only have 1 mvp themselves.
And Curry and KD still have seasons to put into the books to pass Kobe; they both will be 33 and have some injury history so neither is a given.
And using that criteria (MVP voting), in the years they played Duncan finished ahead of Kobe 10 years to 8. For Garnett, Kobe leads 8-7.

Kobe is the most fluent of the top players, I see a case for him to be Top 10, but also see a case for him to be 20-ish.

[DWhiteMamba]

MVP voting isn't everything, but as the poster above notes is certainly belies the idea Kobe was as good as his fanbase seems to think he was in hindsight. Advanced stats don't like Kobe, regular stats don't like Kobe, awards don't like Kobe, win-loss records don't like Kobe... I dunno, I'm starting to think Kobe just wasn't as good as some people want him to be.

[jalengreen]

It’s amazing to me how SO MANY players, both retired and currents, have him in their top-10s AT WORST, let alone a ton having him top-5 and even top-3.

It’s really been making me begin to go, “Okay, open-minded: what am I potentially missing here?”

All I can come up with right now is his maniacal mindset and executing said mindset over a 20 year run, and the respect that’s garnered with that.

just look at how many players already rank durant waaay too high. i think the common thread is a reputation of being perceived as "clutch," pure scorers, particularly tough shot makers, and of course, rings.

[Snakebites]

If you consider accolades, rings and volume numbers to be more important you've got him comfortably in the top 10. On the other end if you think that advanced metrics and efficiency are super-important and hold his later defense against him you might have him in the low 20s. The correct position is probably somewhere in between. I generally have him in the early teens.

It shouldn't be an either/or. It should all be factored in and weighed in an appropriate manner. If you factor in both his real world results and accomplishments as well as analytical theory and philosophy he still lands comfortably inside the top 10 or 11. You have to actually ignore real world, on court results and accomplishments to put him that low. You have to go back and remove accolades and discredit accomplishments.

Kobe seems to be the guy who this happens to the most. Thats a result of narrative, bias, and Jordan/Lebron agendas.

And it isn’t either/or. It’s a question of which one you think is more important. Which is…exactly what you quoted me saying, strangely enough.

“It” happens to Kobe more than the other greats because his advanced stats are weaker than anyone else in the conversation, so people who value them heavily will dock him for it.

[pipfan]

I have him at 11-leading the list after the clear top 10 for me. But I can see arguments for KG, Dr J, West, Oscar above him-maybe Moses and KMalone too. I can't see him out of the top 20

[LukaTheGOAT]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

If we listen to the people who coach and play the game, Kobe shoudld be in the GOAT convo, and him being in the 7-11 range is very disrespectful.
https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/04/08/anonymous-poll-of-nba-players-has-lebron-far-behind-jordan-in-goat-debate/

In a pll of 117 NBA players on whose the GOAT
Michael Jordan (73%)
LeBron James (11.9%)
Kobe Bryant (10.6%)

So which one is it? Because based off this, you are underrating Kobe yourself big-time and aren't listening to the players for instance.

[DWhiteMamba]

If we listen to the players we'd believe lots of dumb stuff. Ever checked their all-star votes? After all their calls for players to vote on awards, alot of the players were publicly embarrassed with what they did when they finally got a vote.

[Stalwart]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

If we listen to the people who coach and play the game, Kobe shoudld be in the GOAT convo, and him being in the 7-11 range is very disrespectful.
https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/04/08/anonymous-poll-of-nba-players-has-lebron-far-behind-jordan-in-goat-debate/

In a pll of 117 NBA players on whose the GOAT
Michael Jordan (73%)
LeBron James (11.9%)
Kobe Bryant (10.6%)

So which one is it? Because based off this, you are underrating Kobe yourself big-time and aren't listening to the players for instance.

You're right. I might be short changing Kobe a bit. By "listen to the players" I mean consider their opinions and take the ones you see on realgm with a grain of salt.

[PistolPeteJR]

Great post. I agree with everything you’re saying and a lot of it has been my mindset too.

But I’ve just been finding myself going, “Okay, am I missing anything, for real?”

Listen to the people that actually play and coach the game. These guys on message boards putting together these rankings are all over the map. They work off of narratives, biases, and trendy arguments.

The reason Kobe's reputation has taken such a hit is because he has his flaws, shortcomings, and blemishes consistently highlighted more than any player in history. He gets his accolades and accomplishments discredited more than anyone. But where is all that discrediting coming from? Its started with Jordan fans in the late 90s. Jordan fans are the ones who started the whole "he needed Shaq" narrative after he 3peated. Jordan fans have backed off a bit ever since he failed to win his 6th ring. But that was 2010...right in time for Lebron fans, ESPN, and the 'analytics' era to pick up where Jordan fans left off. Since then its been a solid 10yrs of anti-Kobe narratives being pushed on ESPN and among younger fans.

All of these forces work together to paint a consistent narrative that says Kobe just wasn't that good. What you hear from message boards is sure...he won titles, mvps, put up elite stats, is highly decorated, and is considered a top 5-10 ATG by most other ATGs but...according to this new, completely made up stat I got him just behind Charles Barkley.

Its silly and dumb. Just look at the post above trying to take Kobe's MVP away from him. These guys try to take away his titles, his mvps, his all def, all star appearences...everything.

The reality is that if you're being consistent and going by things like team success, individual success, stats, longevity, reputation, competition...he falls anywhere between 7-11 all time. If you're going by narratives and arbitrary criteria then you can rank him as low as your imagination will allow.

Legends and all time greats aren't looking at narratives and made up stats to assess a player. They're looking at skill sets, success, intangibles, impact, context, ect.

If we listen to the people who coach and play the game, Kobe shoudld be in the GOAT convo, and him being in the 7-11 range is very disrespectful.
https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/04/08/anonymous-poll-of-nba-players-has-lebron-far-behind-jordan-in-goat-debate/

In a pll of 117 NBA players on whose the GOAT
Michael Jordan (73%)
LeBron James (11.9%)
Kobe Bryant (10.6%)

So which one is it? Because based off this, you are underrating Kobe yourself big-time and aren't listening to the players for instance.

The thing is, players who make decisions on "Player X is good, let's sign/draft him", for example, more often than not end up proving that their player evaluation skills are poor.

[DWhiteMamba]

Lebron the GM is certainly nothing like a good as Lebron the player. I remember when Kawhi was unhappy we didn't give Jonathon Simmons $50 million dollars, right before he told the Clippers they needed Rondo lol. Listen to Charles Barkley rate players sometime. He can't even keep all the crazy things he says straight in his head. I remember the Warriors players and coaches reaction after the first ever player vote for all-star. They were angry and embarrassed. Steve Kerr, Draymond and KD in particular made some very telling remarks in the media about it. Being good at playing a game with a ball is a different skill to evaluating talent, or to running a multi-billion dollar company, and like everyone else they let their personal biases get in the way. Unlike everyone else they're much closer to the situation, and much less likely to be objective. At least the media vote is from people who have lives outside of the game, and are reasonably objective and detached professionals. Their vote holds up alot better than the player or fan vote.

[LAL1947]

Some of the replies in this thread are laughable, at best. Especially from certain Spuds fans, who are exercising a tremendous amount of mental gymnastics in this thread (and other threads) to lessen Kobe's legacy and seem to be forgetting the absolute thrashings that the Lakers laid on the Spurs in 2000-01 and 2001-02, just so they can try to put Duncan over him. The same Tim Duncan who had no answer to the Lakers for 3 whole years... and whose team got swept 4-0 despite being the #1 seeded team in the whole NBA... and whose team lost games by 39 points, where Timmy only scored 9 points... who never won a repeat title despite being on so many stacked teams... and all of this happened thanks to Kobe growing up, which is why the hate exists. Before that, the Spurs felt they could handle Shaq and complete their own 3-peat, especially after their triumph in 1998-99. I feel the context of all this should be remembered when it comes to evaluating what certain fans say and why. There is a whole world out there that still remembers those beat downs though... and especially other players, who give Kobe his rightful due... just as they do to Tim Duncan, who was also a great player in his own right but he wasn't better than Kobe. So this effort isn't just laughable, it's futile.

There are some even claiming that Giannis went up against tougher competition in the 2020-21 playoffs than what the Lakers ever faced... how soon we forget the Trailblazers of old... the Kings with Chris Webber & Co... the Mavericks... or even the Spurs themselves, with the great Timmy, no less. Make up your minds... is Timmy a GOAT candidate... or were the Spurs teams of 1999-02 worse than the teams Giannis faced in this playoffs... and if they were worse, then how is dear ole Timmy a GOAT candiate? You can't have it both ways, lol.