[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain

Odinn21 · Post #21 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:47 pm

I'll just cut through it because they're stylistically very different players and it's very hard to elaborate for Chamberlain with the lack of available full games currently.

Top 7 seasons for Michael Jordan;
1991
1990
1989
1993
1992
1988
1996

Top 7 seasons for Wilt Chamberlain;
1967
1964
1962
1968
1965
1966
1960/1972

Jordan's 1991 and Chamberlain's 1967 seasons are among the strongest single seasons ever, my preference mostly depends on my latest weightings, or whim tbh, lol. I'm going to have 1967 Chamberlain over 1991 Jordan right now. But I think it's obvious that the deciding seasons will be the others.

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 1991 Michael Jordan
3. 1990 Michael Jordan
4. 1989 Michael Jordan
5. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
7. 1993 Michael Jordan
8. 1992 Michael Jordan
9. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain (slightly better ft shooting, especially against the C's and I'd have this season over '92/'93 Jordan, even with the injury)
10. 1988 Michael Jordan
11. 1996 Michael Jordan
12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain

Now, I think my list is a lot more close to having a 50:50 balance between the 2 players.

There are some fundamental comparisons I'm seeing;
My position on Chamberlain's 1962 is that we're basically being bullied into downgrading the season because scoring 50 a game was not the way to play the game. But I'm seeing some similarities between 1962 Chamberlain and 1988 Jordan. What makes their situations so different that while Chamberlain gets criticism for 1962, Jordan gets a pass (compared to 1962) for 1988?
Both seasons were not the most impactful, the most quality seasons they had. However they were the seasons both of these players did the most they could on the court effort wise. Fundamentally, these seasons are pretty similar.
Looking at how well they did against tough postseason teams, Chamberlain's performance vs. the Celtics and Jordan's performance vs. the Pistons, it's really hard for me to put 1988 Jordan ahead.

After drawing a comparison between 1965 Chamberlain and 1995 Olajuwon, I guess I'm not that comfortable with 1965 Chamberlain barely making the list but I think that's a foretell about Jordan vs. Olajuwon than overcorrecting 1965 Chamberlain's situation.

That 6-11 range after the top 5 is bit of a blur. The only thing I'm sure about is 1962 > 1988 and 1965 being the last of the lot but all of them feel insanely close to each other.

Edit;
Lol, already made a change in my list within minutes and bumped 1962 Chamberlain slightly.

70sFan · Post #22 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:41 pm

Alright, after a longer thought I decided to put 1962 ahead of 1965 and 1966. The combination of RS and postseason is just too well-rounded here to overcome that by incomplete seasons like 1965 (weak RS) or 1965 (mediocre series vs Celtics).

Here's my list:

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain - you all know that I value two-way bigman impact higher than anything else in basketball and there's no better example of that rule than 1967 Wilt season. It's one of the very, very few seasons in NBA history when you can argue that Wilt was the best offensive AND defensive player in the league... and it wouldn't be unreasonable. Wilt anchored the best offense ever up to this point and his inside pressence was monstrous. For the first time in his career, Wilt played with good offensive scheme and strong teammates and he turned it into one of the greatest seasons of all-time. On top of that, he was excellent in playoffs as well. The only weakness he had is his FT shooting, but I don't think it's enough to overcome his monstrous two-way impact.

2. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain - I could put it at number one, but I think it's important to note that Celtics denied Wilt from the ball successfully in the finals. It has more to do with Warriors roster than him, but you should keep that in mind. That said, I don't find any reason to believe that Jordan would have done much better in similar situation. Jordan faced Pistons (ATG defensive teams, but not on Celtics level) for three seasons in a row and Bulls didn't have much success on offensive end against them. It was arguably Wilt's best defensive season, so the gap on that end is massive. It is close, but as I said - I prefer Wilt's two way impact.

3. 1991 Michael Jordan - I don't see any other Wilt season to be on peak Jordan level.
4. 1990 Michael Jordan - basically the same level, I just go with consensus here.
5. 1989 Michael Jordan - I like MJ's offense a bit more in 1990 and 1991, but I can't deny - it's another really close season to the top.
6. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain - I count Wilt's injury in 1968 against him here, but I wonder how much I can do that? Remember, he was basically on 1964/1967 level for almost whole season and even against the Celtics, he averaged 24/23/7 on +3 rTS% until last two games. He underperformed in these two games badly, but I'm not sure if I could rank Wilt lower only based on these two games - especially without actually watching these two games. It's not like Jordan didn't have comparably bad games - his game 6 vs Knicks in 1992 almost costed Bulls championship. He also underperformed in game 6 vs Knicks in 1993, but the rest of Bulls team stepped up - this is something that didn't happen in game 7 of 1968 ECF.

7. 1993 Michael Jordan - he was simply better in the playoffs, especially against the Knicks.
8. 1992 Michael Jordan
9. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain - I agree with Odinn, I just don't see 1988 Jordan case over 1962 Wilt.
10. 1988 Michael Jordan
11. 1996 Michael Jordan
12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain - RS performance hurts his case, but I'm pretty sure that he was capable of doing more in the playoffs than any other version of Jordan available. 1966 RS with 1965 playoffs would be much higher, but we have to live with what we have.

7-5 for Jordan, understandable, Jordan's prime was far more consistent. That said, I do think that Wilt peaked higher and it is quite close comparison. I have them close on my all-time list as well (4th vs 6th), so it does seem to be consistent with my criteria.

DQuinn1575 · Post #23 » by **DQuinn1575** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:53 pm

1 1991 Michael Jordan
2 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
3 1996 Michael Jordan
4 1988 Michael Jordan
5 1990 Michael Jordan
6 1989 Michael Jordan
7 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
8 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
9 1993 Michael Jordan
10 1997 Michael Jordan
11 1966 Wilt Chamberlain
12 1963 Wilt Chamberlain

Playoff success is what puts 1991 on top of earlier seasons, as also puts him over Wilt's 64 season. Wilt is such a stat machine, making his seasons rank relatively well alongside Jordan's; a little surprisingly 64 checked out the best.
I think I'm bigger than most on MJ in 96; it was a not going to lose mindset from Day 1 all the way through that makes me think of this as one of the greatest seasons ever.
88,89,90 are the 3 incredible seasons of athleticism that set the state for MJ; all 3 of them ranked just slightly ahead of Wilt and 67, which usually gets acclaim as his best season.As I said I was surprised the 64 numbers beat that out, but also amazing that MJ had so many seasons ahead of it.
1962 is a season that becomes underrated - Wilt does what he does, and people almost can't comprehend it to rate it properly.
93 and 97 get to be seasons where MJ is best in the game, takes his team to a title, and get picked 9th and 10th - a little better than 92 and 98. Wilt's 63 and 66 stats were good enough to split them.

Wilt's 64 season is the surprise of this; it's going to wind up as one that beats a lot of guy's best season.

countryboy667 · Post #24 » by **countryboy667** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:01 pm

Max123 wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:Amusing comparison, just as long as you remember--and yes, I know basketball is a team game--that one on one Wilt would totally destroy Jordan in every instance--bigger, stronger, just as fast and agile, in my opinion, just a better pure athlete.

Just as agile?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yes.

First time Jordan tried to go inside with his tongue hanging out, Wilt would assure he left half of it lying on the floor. Ask Magic Johnson what happens when you challenged a focused Wilt in the paint.

And as for Jordan beating him at a perimeter game, Jordan was not a great three-point shooter and Wilt had a very good midrange game. And Wilt once played PG for the Globies, and did it passably well.

As good as he was, Jordan is overhyped because of those six rings playing in a generally pretty weak NBA era (Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and Bad Boys all over or in serious decline) and was supported by some really good teammates. His legend overhypes even his admitted greatness.

Wilt, OTOH, is maybe the most grossly undervalued and underrated player who ever played the game simply because todays fans have a hard time believing anyone could actually do the things he did. stupidly accept the garbage that he "only played against six five white guys" ( a statement, BTW, that REEKS with racism...only black players can be any good?) and because they worship their (IMO) worthless picayune and arcane analytics.

Don't often disagree with 70s fan--respect his acumen--but I saw Wilt play in his early years. He had a very good midrange game out to 16-18 feet, one in which he especially used the backboard very well. Was it a waste for him to use it? Quite possibly. As has often been said, he was a proud man who wanted to prove he was a complete player and not just big. If he'd been allowed to play like Shaq, hell he might have scored a hundred more than just once.

70sFan · Post #25 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:08 pm

countryboy667 wrote:
Max123 wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:Amusing comparison, just as long as you remember--and yes, I know basketball is a team game--that one on one Wilt would totally destroy Jordan in every instance--bigger, stronger, just as fast and agile, in my opinion, just a better pure athlete.

Just as agile?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yes.

First time Jordan tried to go inside with his tongue hanging out, Wilt would assure he left half of it lying on the floor. Ask Magic Johnson what happens when you challenged a focused Wilt in the paint.

And as for Jordan beating him at a perimeter game, Jordan was not a great three-point shooter and Wilt had a very good midrange game. And Wilt once played PG for the Globies, and did it reasonably well.

Wilt's midrange game was limited to short turnarounds and occassional open jumpshots. He didn't have much of a midrange game and he didn't need the one.

70sFan · Post #26 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:20 pm

Would any of you like to see at my collection of 1965 and 1967 Sixers clips?

Odinn21 · Post #27 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:27 pm

17 hours and 30 minutes left on the clock for this one. I'm tagging people again because the participation is a bit too low right now.

Spoiler:

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70sFan wrote:Would any of you like to see at my collection of 1965 and 1967 Sixers clips?

Yes, of course. Why are you even asking.

DQuinn1575 · Post #28 » by **DQuinn1575** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:29 pm

70sFan wrote:Would any of you like to see at my collection of 1965 and 1967 Sixers clips?

Yes what i saw of Wilt was 71-73, so i rarely saw him as a primary scorer

countryboy667 · Post #29 » by **countryboy667** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:29 pm

70sFan wrote:Would any of you like to see at my collection of 1965 and 1967 Sixers clips?

I'm always up for that, LOL--IMHO that was when they played REAL basketball abiding by the ACTUAL RULES of the game. :lol:

70sFan · Post #30 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:34 pm

1964/65

Spoiler:

1966/67

Spoiler:

Not a lot, but certainly more than what's available online. I hope to get more 1967 material soon :wink:

Odinn21 · Post #31 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:03 pm

70sFan wrote:https://youtu.be/yuDlf6nqRiU

Thanks a lot for these!
That putback attempt at 3:36 in this game always gets me. :lol:

Aside from obvious ft shooting worries, I think if Chamberlain ran the floor as well as Russell did, he'd be the goat.
The way these 2 grabbed boards was just nuts by the way. There are modern goalkeepers in football making lesser lunges.

As you said, Chamberlain's improvement for offensive awareness is pretty obvious even in these videos. Let alone comparing '65 and '67 to '60/'62.

Narigo · Post #32 » by **Narigo** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:05 pm

1991 Michael Jordan- 88-91Jordan are more or less around tthe same level
1989 Michael Jordan
1988 Michael Jordan
1964 Wilt Chamberlain- prefer this version of WIlt over 67. Imo, 64 Wilt had the right balance of scoring passing and defense. He also carried his squad to the NBA finals with poor offensive help
1967 Wilt Chamberlain -showed how verstatle Wilt was. By changing his game to be somewhat of a point center.
1990 Michael Jordan
1996 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1993 Michael Jordan
1968 Wilt Chamberlain- Pretty much same as 67 Wilt. But unforunately injuries slowed him down in the playoffs
1966 Wilt Chamberlain- I feel like 66 Wilt is a bit underrated. Its probably Wilts peak as a volume scorer. His effiency here is the highest of all of his high scoring seasons and his passing was also elite also. He played well in the playoffs but he didnt get much help from his teammates. Tbh I feel 66 Wilt is basically the same as 64 Wilt.
1962 Wilt Chamberlain- The final spot was a tossup betweern 62 Wilt and 87 Jordan. I prefer 62 Wilt mostly because of defense

Edit: I forgot to include 93 Jordan

LA Bird · Post #33 » by **LA Bird** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:25 pm

1. 91 Jordan
2. 67 Wilt
3. 64 Wilt
4. 90 Jordan
5. 93 Jordan
6. 89 Jordan
7. 88 Jordan
8. 62 Wilt
9. 92 Jordan
10. 96 Jordan
11. 68 Wilt
12. 66 Wilt

91 Jordan and 67 Wilt are the two best title winning peaks ever IMO. I think there is a dropoff in Wilt seasons after his top 2 so Jordan wins most of the spots in the middle. I am not that high on 92 Jordan. It's the Bulls' weakest title run and MJ's individual numbers that year were not that great for his standards despite his averages being boosted from destroying a trash -4 SRS team in the first round. 93 was a clearly better season for MJ than 92 IMO. Not very confident about the order of Wilt seasons after 67, 64, 62 but I don't see 65 being in the mix. I am low on 95 Hakeem but he still had a 44-28 (50.1 win pace) record in the regular season and a +11.9 raw on/off. 65 Wilt was 28-43 (31.5 win pace) and the SRS change from his midseason trade was less than 3 SRS for both the Warriors and the Sixers. Wilt had a great series against the Celtics but I don't see it as being so much better than his other playoff performances to make up for the regular season difference.

Odinn21 · Post #34 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:36 pm

Narigo wrote:...

Just an fyi, you have 11 seasons in your list, not 12.

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LA Bird wrote:65 Wilt was 28-43 (31.5 win pace) and the SRS change from his midseason trade was less than 3 SRS for both the Warriors and the Sixers.

Very recently, I created a very simple calculator for MoV numbers to eliminate impact of blowout results to a degree. It uses -15/+15 range.

San Francisco Warriors;
10-28 & -4.97 MoV (-3.84 adjusted) in the games Chamberlain played before the trade
1-5 & -7.33 MoV (-5.67 adjusted) in the games Chamberlain did not play before the trade
6-30 & -7.25 MoV (-6.11 adjusted) after the trade

Philadelphia Warriors;
22-23 & -0.49 MoV (-0.20 adjusted) before Chamberlain played his first game for them
18-17 & +0.29 MoV (+0.51 adjusted) after the trade

Now, I'm yet to do an extensive work on career trajectories of individuals. Also a player having a near 50:50 distribution with 2 teams in a season is not a common practice.
But looking at team trajectories on overall, I can say that difference slightly more than +2 in San Francisco is pretty big deal and is likely to be around +5 swing for an individual if it was in -3/+3 range and not that low with -6 range.
I'd agree that his numbers in Philadelphia could be better. But are you blaming Chamberlain for playing in San Francisco, a team that went 10-28 with him and 7-35 without him?
I mean would you hold it against Chamberlain this hard if he was in Philadelphia from the start and was on a 43-44W team?

Another thing; what you're saying is kind of like not recognising seasons like 2006 Garnett or 1961 Oscar Robertson. Yes, they are not as complete as the others, especially as an all-time season. But your reason looked slightly off to me.

O_6 · Post #35 » by **O_6** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:52 am

1. '67 Wilt
2. '91 Jordan
3. '90 Jordan

This was really tough. I believe '67 Wilt and '91 Jordan are the two highest peaks in league history. I've gone back and forth over which one I have the #1 peak, but at this point and looking through all these years I'm going to go with '67 Wilt. I just consider Wilt to be the most gifted athletic specimen that we've seen in modern sports history. I think if he had a different mentality when he was younger, he'd be the runaway GOAT. The Globetrotter background, the non-stop numbers chasing, the mediocre at best leadership skills, etc... I think it took until '67 for him to finally play in an optimal style to win. I think he put it all together and was a disgustingly dominant two-way freak who carried his all-time great squad on both ends of the court and dominated in the playoffs against a Dynasty to finally win that ring.

'91/'90 MJ was just a flawless basketball player. I have '91 a hair better as he was a little more comfortable letting the game come to him within the Triangle. If you think '91 MJ > '67 Wilt, I wouldn't argue too hard. The fact that FT shooting was such an Achilles heel for Wilt in '67 made me go back and forth with this version of MJ, but ultimately I think I give the tiny edge to Wilt.

4. '64 Wilt
5. '93 Jordan
6. '89 Jordan
7. '68 Wilt
8. '62 Wilt
9. '88 Jordan

These seasons were all so insanely good. '64 was a big year in Wilt's career as he adjusted his game in a new system and took less FGA while placing more emphasis on passing/defense. He was just dominant that year even if his team fell short against the Celtics again. Although I prefer the '67 style to the '64 version, Wilt might have been at his most "unstoppable" as a player in this year.

I might be in the minority but I prefer '93 MJ to '89 MJ due to his more complete offensive game. I know '89 MJ was more athletic and a better defender, but '93 MJ was such a master of his craft on offense while still being a plus defender. He didn't need to dominate the ball as much, yet he still put up comparable if not better numbers on offense in '93. His playoff run in '93 included a 38.0 USG% and a 7.0 TOV%, he was just so comfortable by this point

'68 Wilt wasn't far off from '67. Not quite the same offensively, probably better defensively. If he played a little bit better in the playoffs/stayed healthy, this could be in the Top 4 mix. '62 Wilt and '88 Jordan are probably two of the most exciting seasons in league history, just two freak of nature athletes who tore up the league. They weren't as refined as later years but still dominant. Slight edge to '62 Wilt because his team was 2nd in SRS and 3rd in DRtg with him playing such a huge role on offense.

10. '92 Jordan
11. '96 Jordan
12. '66 Wilt

'92 Jordan is a weird one. Statistically it was clearly an individual down year after finally winning the ring in '91. But the team dominated with a 67 win and 10+ SRS season, they had a couple of close calls in the playoffs but MJ ultimately stepped up every single game where the Bulls needed a win. I don't know why I feel this way, but a part of me believes that 1992 MJ is the best version of him as a pure basketball player. Like if you put all the versions of '87-'98 MJ in a gym and asked them to play each other 1v1 and 5v5 over and over again, it would be '92 MJ who would end up being the alpha of that group at the end of the day. But he didn't bring that motor this year, he definitely coasted but did it successfully as the Bulls were awesome.

'96 MJ was an awesome comeback tour where he dominated the league. Not as electrifying as the younger version of himself, but still unbelievably good. '66 Wilt led a great team and had an awesome year, just ran into the Celtics again.

Closer than I thought it would be. Wilt with the #1 season as well as 4 of the first 8, but MJ has the 7-5 overall edge.

ZeppelinPage · Post #36 » by **ZeppelinPage** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:17 am

Odinn21 wrote:
LA Bird wrote:65 Wilt was 28-43 (31.5 win pace) and the SRS change from his midseason trade was less than 3 SRS for both the Warriors and the Sixers.

Very recently, I created a very simple calculator for MoV numbers to eliminate impact of blowout results to a degree. It uses -15/+15 range.

San Francisco Warriors;
10-28 & -4.97 MoV (-3.84 adjusted) in the games Chamberlain played before the trade
1-5 & -7.33 MoV (-5.67 adjusted) in the games Chamberlain did not play before the trade
6-30 & -7.25 MoV (-6.11 adjusted) after the trade

Philadelphia Warriors;
22-23 & -0.49 MoV (-0.20 adjusted) before Chamberlain played his first game for them
18-17 & +0.29 MoV (+0.51 adjusted) after the trade

Now, I'm yet to do an extensive work on career trajectories of individuals. Also a player having a near 50:50 distribution with 2 teams in a season is not a common practice.
But looking at team trajectories on overall, I can say that difference slightly more than +2 in San Francisco is pretty big deal and is likely to be around +5 swing for an individual if it was in -3/+3 range and not that low with -6 range.
I'd agree that his numbers in Philadelphia could be better. But are you blaming Chamberlain for playing in San Francisco, a team that went 10-28 with him and 7-35 without him?
I mean would you hold it against Chamberlain this hard if he was in Philadelphia from the start and was on a 43-44W team?

Another thing; what you're saying is kind of like not recognising seasons like 2006 Garnett or 1961 Oscar Robertson. Yes, they are not as complete as the others, especially as an all-time season. But your reason looked slightly off to me.

The '65 comparisons for the 76ers before and after Wilt is commonly used--context does show it's rather skewed against Wilt, considering a good portion of the team was playing injured and/or completely out of games. From sifting through newspapers, it seems as though Costello suffered an injury around February 11th or February 13th (it's also possible that other players were already playing injured leading up to this).

Before February 13th, the 76ers with Wilt were 11-4, by mid to late February the team had suffered numerous injuries:

Al Bianchi - Injured ankle
Hal Greer - Bone bruise on one foot and sprained ankle on the other
Larry Costello - Bruised shooting hand
Luke Jackson - Pulled hamstring muscle

During late February and March, Hal Greer missed multiple games and Costello suffered a foot injury (Costello missed all of March and was badly injured during the playoffs).

Therefore, when using the data one has to keep in mind the context of the situation for the 76ers, considering two of their three best players were injured during this period and missing games, along with other players.

70sFan · Post #37 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:42 am

About 1965 Sixers situation:

Hal Greer missed 9 games after Wilt trade. He missed only one game before Wilt trade.
Larry Costello missed 15 games after Wilt trade. He missed only one game before Wilt trade.
Al Bianchi missed 2 games after wilt trade. He missed 19 games before Wilt trade.

Because of Greer and Costello injuries, Bianchi was forced to play more than he should have during the last 35 RS games. We know that he wasn't 100% healthy either throughout the season. With the loss of Paul Neumann, these three were basically the whole Sixers guard rotation and they didn't have Costello for half of the period with Wilt.

Looking at raw win rate without adjusting for these injuries won't give us clear Wilt impact on Sixers turnaround. We do know that Sixers confidently beat strong Royals team in the first round and they almost beat arguably the best version of 1960s Celtics in 7 games. We do know that the healthy Sixers became the best team in the league next season (in RS, though the addition of rookie Cunningham and sophomore Wali Jones can't be forgotten). I don't think it's fair to say that 1965 Wilt was clearly worse than 1995 Hakeem only because he played on horrible team in SF. This team was truly all-time bad supporting cast, even after the addition of rookie Barry and Thurmond's improvement they were 2nd worst team in the league.

Odinn21 · Post #38 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:47 am

2 hours and 10 minutes left on the clock.

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I was deep into stats and missed the injuries happened in that timeline. Massive thanks for setting the record straight.
In the first 15 games the Sixers after the trade and the team was healthy in general; they had +4.40 MoV (+4.20 adjusted), and that's in line with the assumption of Chamberlain bringing an impact worth of +5 SRS swing.

LA Bird · Post #39 » by **LA Bird** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:53 am

Odinn21 wrote:But looking at team trajectories on overall, I can say that difference slightly more than +2 in San Francisco is pretty big deal and is likely to be around +5 swing for an individual if it was in -3/+3 range and not that low with -6 range.

A +2 change is not a big deal for a GOAT level player. And I don't understand the logic behind why a +2 at -6 would become a +5 at -3 when that number usually goes down as the quality of the team improves.

I'd agree that his numbers in Philadelphia could be better. But are you blaming Chamberlain for playing in San Francisco, a team that went 10-28 with him and 7-35 without him?
I mean would you hold it against Chamberlain this hard if he was in Philadelphia from the start and was on a 43-44W team?

Another thing; what you're saying is kind of like not recognising seasons like 2006 Garnett or 1961 Oscar Robertson. Yes, they are not as complete as the others, especially as an all-time season. But your reason looked slightly off to me.

I don't blame Wilt for being on a bad team. The problem is he should have helped them win more despite it. You picked out two examples of players on bad teams but there is evidence of strong impact for both of them. Oscar's 61 Royals were +12.6 SRS better in games he played in than in games he missed according to ElGee's spreadsheet. Garnett's 06 TWolves were +10.8 better in Net Rating with Garnett on court than off. You could argue that we would never have known how 65 Wilt's impact numbers looked if he played on the Sixers the entire season but the fact is we do know it due to the midseason trade and there is no reason we should pretend that information doesn't exist. 65 Wilt was still an All NBA level season but it just doesn't compare to other years where he was good from start to finish.

Also, with regard to the missed games from Greer and Costello, ElGee's spreadsheet already factored that in so Wilt's Sixer WOWY number was slightly higher at +2.8 rather than the base SRS change.

Odinn21 · Post #40 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:10 pm

LA Bird wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:But looking at team trajectories on overall, I can say that difference slightly more than +2 in San Francisco is pretty big deal and is likely to be around +5 swing for an individual if it was in -3/+3 range and not that low with -6 range.

A +2 change is not a big deal for a GOAT level player. And I don't understand the logic behind why a +2 at -6 would become a +5 at -3 when that number usually goes down as the quality of the team improves.

It's the distributions. That San Francisco team without Chamberlain is quite literally in the bottom 1% in the '60s and you can't expect an individual's impact to act like as if it is in 1σ range. It's not linear you know.

And did you seriously say "there is no reason we should pretend that information doesn't exist"? It's quite ironic since this last page of the thread is filled with information of MoV numbers and injuries. And you're talking against these informations because ElGee's WOWY numbers for the seasons are built on with a disregard for Greer's and Costello's injuries?