[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain

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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#21 » by homecourtloss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:57 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:...
...

Probably as you know, I don't put much stock into ps +/- numbers and swings.
Fwiw, to me, those numbers are more about Wade being bad or worse than James being good or better if we're to interpret them in the way you presented.
I definitely see the point of "James was compensating for Wade's diminishing value" pov. But I don't think the situation was big as much as those numbers might suggest.


Overall, I agree with the stance about the wild variability of these on-off numbers, but watching the games, you see James being unable to operate with opposing teams sagging so far off of Wade and dropping down to close off lanes. Healthy Wade ameliorated for this lack of shooting in other ways, i.e., defensively, transition, slashing, etc., but the injured Wade wasn’t doing anything. The space that was available when Wade sat allowed James to operate at a completely different level.
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lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#22 » by ty 4191 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:01 pm

sansterre wrote:I love 1967 Wilt but I hate how his efficiency dropped by 9% in the playoffs (fueled, in part, by shooting 38.8% from the line).

In the regular season he used 16.9% of his team's shots at +14.4% rTS, which is slightly low volume but insane efficiency.

In the playoffs it dropped to 16.4% of his team's shots at +5.3% rTS (not adjusted for opposition). Obviously he played 11 of 15 against Russell/Thurmond (which doesn't do him any favors) but it's hard to hold up a guy shooting below 40% from the line as a paragon of all-around play.


It isn't adjusted for opposition, which is everything in basketball. Do you really expect him to do better than (or as well as) his seasonal averages against two First Ballot HOF Centers in the playoffs?

Well, regardless. Here's how he did, heads up, in any case:

EDF:
-Wilt vs. Russell 1967 Playoffs: 21.6/32.0/10.0 (also averaged 12 blocks per game) on .556 shooting.

-Russell vs. Wilt: 11.6/23.4/6.0 on .358 shooting.

Finals:
-Wilt vs. Thurmond: 17.7/28.5/6.8 (with 13 blocks per game) on .560 shooting

-Thurmond vs. Wilt: 14.2/26.7/3.3 assists on .343 shooting.

I rest my case. Totally owned two of the greatest centers in history.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#23 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:52 am

Top 7 seasons for LeBron James;
2012
2013
2009
2016
2014
2010
2017/2011/2020

Top 7 seasons for Wilt Chamberlain;
1967
1964
1962
1968
1965
1966
1960/1972

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 2012 LeBron James
3. 2013 LeBron James
4. 2009 LeBron James
5. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 2016 LeBron James
7. 2014 LeBron James
8. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
9. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain
10. 2010 LeBron James
11. 2017 LeBron James
12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain

Thoughts;
- As I stated earlier, I think 1967 Chamberlain is bit ahead. Not by a big margin but a rather clear margin.
- Even though he was improving with his offensive flow sense, I think Chamberlain's offensive tendencies in '64 were not good enough to be put over James' top 3 seasons. Though Chamberlain being a goat level rebounder always makes these kind of calls tough.
- I may not be doing justice to 1962/1968 Chamberlain tbh. His seasons check many boxes but I think James maintaining his scoring efficiency in the ps is the deciding factor in here.
- 2010/2017 James are on an island at this point. There's not many complete seasons left for Chamberlain to compete with these 2 seasons.
- 1965 Chamberlain vs. 2011/2020 James was a good comparison. In terms of sheer quality, 2011 takes it, we all know it. I mean, if we were ranking with only sheer quality 2011 James would rank so high. But we also know that it was the single biggest negative outlier James ever experienced. 2020 is the most complete of these 3 seasons but we also saw that James' regression, he wasn't getting into the paint as he used to, etc. The balance between sheer quality and high performance / complete season led me to pick 1965 Chamberlain in this one.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:11 am

Alright, I wanted to wait with my voting until I get new Wilt material, but they didn't finish digitising process this week. That's a shame, but it's not likely that new footage would completely change my mind on Wilt evaluation.

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain - I'm not 100% comfortable with this choice, but Wilt's peak in 1967 was special. The only concern I have is his FT shooting problems, but it didn't limit him to significant degree.

2. 2012 LeBron James - the most physically imposing version of James, such a complete season and amazing postseason run.
3. 2009 LeBron James - one of the greatest carryjobs in NBA history.

4. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain - basically on the same level with 2013 James. James has a slight RS edge (it's one of the greatest RS performances ever), but I like Wilt's postseason run a bit more. Wilt faced GOAT defensive team in the finals and even though his raw production went down, he was still extremely impactful with his defensive pressence, rebounding and inside gravity. James had much better team around him and Wilt's two-way impact against the best competition gives him a small edge.
5. 2013 LeBron James - I feel uncomfortable with ranking 2013 so low, but this season ends GOAT-level tier in this comparison.

6. 2016 LeBron James - monstrous two-way impact in the playoffs, could be inside top 5 with better RS.
7. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain - one of the best defensive seasons ever along with very strong offensive impact, unfortunately the injury hurt this season's case.
8. 2014 LeBron James - arguably James offensive peak, very resiliant in postseason while having outmatched supporting cast.
9. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain - extremely good season production-wise, Wilt did wonders within very bad coaching strategy and he almost beat the superior Celtics team in the playoffs. Could be a bit higher, but I'm not a massive fan of younger Wilt offensive tendencies (this is where additional footage would help us).

10. 2017 LeBron James - ATG offensive postseason run, but I'm not a fan of his defensive effort in that season.
11. 2010 LeBron James - sometimes I feel that I underrate this version of James a bit too much due to off-court problems. That said, I don't think there is a good case for 2010 over 1962, so it wouldn't be that much higher anyway.

12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain - basically the battle of strong postseason, weak RS performances between 1965 and 2018. I think that Wilt was simply closer to his peak in 1965 and even though he was inconsistent in 1965 due to health problems, he was still capable of playing on his peak level. James offense was on another level during the playoffs, but his defense was bad. I've seen quite a bit material from Wilt's 1965 season and he usually looks engaged on defensive end, which is the tie breaker to me.

HM: 2018 James, then 2020 James vs 1966 Wilt
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#25 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:00 pm

LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain results;

Code: Select all

1.   58 points / 0.967 share / '67 Wilt Chamberlain
2.   54 points / 0.900 share / '09 LeBron James
3.   49 points / 0.817 share / '12 LeBron James
4.   43 points / 0.717 share / '64 Wilt Chamberlain
5.   39 points / 0.650 share / '13 LeBron James
6.   38 points / 0.633 share / '16 LeBron James
7.   26 points / 0.433 share / '68 Wilt Chamberlain
8.   21 points / 0.350 share / '62 Wilt Chamberlain
8.   21 points / 0.350 share / '17 LeBron James
10.  14 points / 0.233 share / '14 LeBron James
11.  13 points / 0.217 share / '10 LeBron James
12.   9 points / 0.150 share / '65 Wilt Chamberlain
                               
13.   2 points / 0.033 share / '18 LeBron James
14.   2 points / 0.033 share / '20 LeBron James
15.   1 points / 0.017 share / '66 Wilt Chamberlain


Points within top 12 seasons voted;
LeBron James 46 - 33 Wilt Chamberlain

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
LeBron James 228 - 157 Wilt Chamberlain

Winner: LeBron James


Results on Google Sheets
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#26 » by LA Bird » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:39 pm

Missed the deadline but here is my list:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 1967 Wilt
3. 2016 LeBron
4. 1964 Wilt
5. 2017 LeBron
6. 2012 LeBron
7. 2013 LeBron
8. 2010 LeBron
9. 1962 Wilt
10. 2014 LeBron
11. 1968 Wilt
12. 2020 LeBron

Top 2 are clear ahead of the rest. Other than 64, I don't think the other Wilt seasons are as good as the best of James's. I personally find 68 Wilt a little overrated. rORtg is not close to 67, his TS% returned to his normal standards after a crazy year, and the team performance in 68 was inflated from the frequent blow out wins against the two new expansions teams (+19.7 MOV in 14 games vs Rockets and Sonics). It's also one of the few seasons where Wilt's team declined defensively in the playoffs compared to the regular season. 2020 LeBron is last on the list here and I think it's a more complete season from start to finish than any other Wilt season.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#27 » by homecourtloss » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:52 pm

LA Bird wrote:Missed the deadline but here is my list:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 1967 Wilt
3. 2016 LeBron
4. 1964 Wilt
5. 2017 LeBron
6. 2012 LeBron
7. 2013 LeBron
8. 2010 LeBron
9. 1962 Wilt
10. 2014 LeBron
11. 1968 Wilt
12. 2020 LeBron

Top 2 are clear ahead of the rest. Other than 64, I don't think the other Wilt seasons are as good as the best of James's. I personally find 68 Wilt a little overrated. rORtg is not close to 67, his TS% returned to his normal standards after a crazy year, and the team performance in 68 was inflated from the frequent blow out wins against the two new expansions teams (+19.7 MOV in 14 games vs Rockets and Sonics). It's also one of the few seasons where Wilt's team declined defensively in the playoffs compared to the regular season. 2020 LeBron is last on the list here and I think it's a more complete season from start to finish than any other Wilt season.


I don’t know if this post counts after the deadline though I think Odinn21 counted some after the deadline.

Odinn21 wrote:.


I know you’ve explained it before, but I like 2016 and 2017 James so high. I cannot rank them ahead of 2012 and 2013 because the regular seasons are as good, but as a player on maximum effort with rest between games, I feel 2016 and 2017 James allows you to win any game better than 2012 or 2013 James, and honestly, without the best team ever in his way, i.e., 2017 GSW, there’d be a lot more talk about 2017 James as a peak as he had mastered offensive basketball. The drive game with the little running start, defense bouncing off of him, incredible footwork and finishing at the rim even without the above the rim play, the euro-steps, the jumper, the passing,

—Cavs weren’t outscored with James on court in any EC playoff game; +18.6 per 100, 124.6 ORtg with him on court over 13 games is absurd even if competition isn’t the greatest. I don’t see them losing even against better competition and only GOAT opposition could defeat them.
—34/12/10 on 63 TS%, 62% eFG in the Finals is bonkers especially when considering trash FT shooting
—After 4 games vs. a GOAT team, the Cavs were +6 with James on court—+2.4 per 100 with James (Kyrie was -10.4, Love -4.2)
—overall for the series, James was -.5 per 100 on court (+9.6 without Love, +3.4 without Love), and the Cavs -38.8 with James off court
—Defense before the Finals was strong as well, especially rim deterrence, and of course rotations though was late to some contests on threes
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&VsConference=East
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lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#28 » by Djoker » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:18 pm

Pace was very high in the 2017 Finals... per 75 Lebron's numbers were 28.5/10.2/8.5 which is obviously still elite all-around but very far from an insane 34/12/10. And we know that Lebron's defense was absolutely terrible in the 2017 Finals as well.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#29 » by ty 4191 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:53 am

ty 4191 wrote:
sansterre wrote:I love 1967 Wilt but I hate how his efficiency dropped by 9% in the playoffs (fueled, in part, by shooting 38.8% from the line).

In the regular season he used 16.9% of his team's shots at +14.4% rTS, which is slightly low volume but insane efficiency.

In the playoffs it dropped to 16.4% of his team's shots at +5.3% rTS (not adjusted for opposition). Obviously he played 11 of 15 against Russell/Thurmond (which doesn't do him any favors) but it's hard to hold up a guy shooting below 40% from the line as a paragon of all-around play.


It isn't adjusted for opposition, which is everything in basketball. Do you really expect him to do better than (or as well as) his seasonal averages against two First Ballot HOF Centers in the playoffs?

Well, regardless. Here's how he did, heads up, in any case:

EDF:
-Wilt vs. Russell 1967 Playoffs: 21.6/32.0/10.0 (also averaged 12 blocks per game) on .556 shooting.

-Russell vs. Wilt: 11.6/23.4/6.0 on .358 shooting.

Finals:
-Wilt vs. Thurmond: 17.7/28.5/6.8 (with 13 blocks per game) on .560 shooting

-Thurmond vs. Wilt: 14.2/26.7/3.3 assists on .343 shooting.

I rest my case. Totally owned two of the greatest centers in history.


Sansterre,
Where's your reply/rebuttal here?
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#30 » by sansterre » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:52 am

ty 4191 wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
sansterre wrote:I love 1967 Wilt but I hate how his efficiency dropped by 9% in the playoffs (fueled, in part, by shooting 38.8% from the line).

In the regular season he used 16.9% of his team's shots at +14.4% rTS, which is slightly low volume but insane efficiency.

In the playoffs it dropped to 16.4% of his team's shots at +5.3% rTS (not adjusted for opposition). Obviously he played 11 of 15 against Russell/Thurmond (which doesn't do him any favors) but it's hard to hold up a guy shooting below 40% from the line as a paragon of all-around play.


It isn't adjusted for opposition, which is everything in basketball. Do you really expect him to do better than (or as well as) his seasonal averages against two First Ballot HOF Centers in the playoffs?

Well, regardless. Here's how he did, heads up, in any case:

EDF:
-Wilt vs. Russell 1967 Playoffs: 21.6/32.0/10.0 (also averaged 12 blocks per game) on .556 shooting.

-Russell vs. Wilt: 11.6/23.4/6.0 on .358 shooting.

Finals:
-Wilt vs. Thurmond: 17.7/28.5/6.8 (with 13 blocks per game) on .560 shooting

-Thurmond vs. Wilt: 14.2/26.7/3.3 assists on .343 shooting.

I rest my case. Totally owned two of the greatest centers in history.


Sansterre,
Where's your reply/rebuttal here?

Sorry, I had one and got distracted with real life for a bit.

You're right, I didn't adjust for opposition. According to BackPicks, Wilt normally dropped about 4% TS against Russell, though Russell's effect on other centers could be higher (in the 5-9% range). I don't know what the adjustment for Thurmond is, but it's probably in the same territory as Russell.

Wilt dropped 11% against those two. That's way, way bigger than their normal defensive adjustment. But adjusted for opposition, let's call Wilt's opponent-adjusted true shooting change in the postseason around -6%.

If so (and again, we're ballparking), that would be a conspicuously non-resilient playoffs. David Robinson gets flack for being weak in the postseason, but his career adjustment is about -3% (he had three runs worse than -6%). Garnett for his career averaged about -2% (two runs worse than -6%). High volume Harden averaged about -3% (one worse than -6%). This is a long way of saying that -6% opponent adjusted TS% for the playoffs is historically non-resilient.

Does that mean he was bad at scoring? Definitely not. Not adjusted for opposition he shot +3.4% rTS (better than league average). On 16% of his team's shots that's pretty unremarkable, but if we adjust for defense, we can probably call it more like +9% rTS, which is clearly excellent (even if a big drop from his regular season).

Am I making too much of his non-resilience in this postseason? Maybe. He dropped from eye-bleedingly efficient to very efficient; it's a drop but it's not like he got bad. And his defense/rebounding/passing were clearly the larger part of his value (BackPicks estimates that only about 25% of Wilt's positive contribution was scoring+passing).

For better or for worse I don't care too much about head to head box scores (though I'll admit they're far more persuasive than they would be if the players didn't defend each other). Wilt beating Thurmond isn't a surprise; nobody is suggesting that Thurmond is remotely Wilt-level. And Wilt in his prime beating Russell past his prime is . . . I mean, the margins are pretty extreme, but it's still not super-persuasive. After all, Russell's biggest strength was playing team defense, and we wouldn't necessarily see that in a Russell v Wilt matchup.

I think the most impressive argument for playoff Wilt in 1967 is simply that the '67 Sixers were historically dominant, Wilt was obviously their best player, and if his scoring regressed notably in the postseason (even more than you'd expect given the opposition), well, scoring was only a small fraction of his value at that point.

I think I've just worked on my resilience project for too long. A 9% TS drop is insane and it really jumped out at me; I probably overreacted.

I will say though, in an era where Philadelphia averaged around a point per possession, having Wilt shoot below 40% from the line in the playoffs makes hack-a-shaq style strategies an obvious weakness.

Interesting (if arbitrary) stat for the playoff Sixers that year:

Games decided by 4 or less points: 1-2
Games decided by 5 or more points: 10-2

I guess having a late-game liability doesn't really matter if you just blow the other team out . . . :)
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#31 » by ty 4191 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:01 am

sansterre wrote:Interesting (if arbitrary) stat for the playoff Sixers that year:

Games decided by 4 or less points: 1-2
Games decided by 5 or more points: 10-2

I guess having a late-game liability doesn't really matter if you just blow the other team out . . . :)


Nice work. :)

Questions: Where are you getting the rTS percentages from? And opponent adjusted rTS percentages?

Has anyone (here, or elsewhere) ever gone through all (or almost all) of Wilt's close playoff loses, to find out how many games were won or lost by making (or, more often, missing) free throws at crucial moments, very late in games? That could be a dealbreaker.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#32 » by sansterre » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:05 am

ty 4191 wrote:
sansterre wrote:Interesting (if arbitrary) stat for the playoff Sixers that year:

Games decided by 4 or less points: 1-2
Games decided by 5 or more points: 10-2

I guess having a late-game liability doesn't really matter if you just blow the other team out . . . :)


Nice work. :)

Questions: Where are you getting the rTS percentages from? And opponent adjusted rTS percentages?

Has anyone (here, or elsewhere) ever gone through all (or almost all) of Wilt's close playoff loses, to find out how many games were won or lost by making (or, more often, missing) free throws at crucial moments, very late in games? That could be a dealbreaker.

So rTS% is just the player's TS% minus the league average TS%. Normally for playoffs I'll adjust for the opponent's average TS% allowed, but we don't have that data before 1971. So I ballparked using the BackPicks numbers (3.4% above league average in the playoffs, bumped by 4-6% gives us more like 7-9% TS above league average after adjustment.

The closest thing I could think of is to look at close games - I don't know how many game logs/video we have available.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#33 » by sansterre » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:34 am

ty 4191 wrote:Has anyone (here, or elsewhere) ever gone through all (or almost all) of Wilt's close playoff loses, to find out how many games were won or lost by making (or, more often, missing) free throws at crucial moments, very late in games? That could be a dealbreaker.

Okay, so this is hardly definitive.

Wilt's playoff career by margin of victory:

Games Decided by <5 points: 19-18
Games Decided by between 5 and 9 points: 21-25
Games Decided by more than 10 points: 48-29

I think this is a little suggestive. In games where the winning team won handily (10+ points) Wilt was 48-29, but in games decided by single digits he was 40-43. This is hardly dispositive, but it is interesting.

Here's the breakdown by team:

Warriors:

<5: 2-8
5-9: 3-7
10+: 10-7

76ers:

<5: 3-5
5-9: 11-8
10+: 11-6

Lakers:

<5: 14-6
5-9: 7-10
10+: 27-16

If we decided that this was a real pattern (Wilt's teams struggled in close games), I'd hesitate to blame it on his free throw shooting. He was actually a better free throw shooter earlier in his career, but that was the time when his teams struggled most in close games. I guess you could argue that this is just what happens when you only have one offensive weapon to run through (the Warriors), but his numbers don't look awesome for the Sixers and they had plenty.

All of the above could be simple random chance. Wilt could simply have been getting unlucky early in his career (and lucky late in his career).

It is interesting though.
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