[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

[homecourtloss]

temptatively and before checking stats in depth

tier 1: 89-91 jordan vs 09,12,13 lebron
tier 2: 88,92-93 jordan vs 10,14,16 lebron
tier 3: 96-97 jordan vs 17-18 lebron
tier 4: 87,98 jordan vs 11,20 lebron

would be the "matchups" to start with imo

I think James has a pretty decent chance against Jordan because even though Jordan peaked slightly higher with more seasons for the low end.

My tiers for the 2;
1990/1991 Jordan
2009/2012/2013 James
(I think that James did not peak just as high but he clearly peaked higher than any other Jordan season)
1989/1993 Jordan vs. 2014/2016 James
1988/1992 Jordan vs. 2010/2017 James

And that rounds up the 12. This might be the only comparison I will leave out one of 1988 Jordan and 2010/2017 James entirely, let alone Jordan’s 1996.

James doesn’t have much of a chance here when you have posters posting that Jordan had six of the top seven or five of the top six seasons here .

The posters on the other side will post balanced lists meaning Jordan will win this in a rout.

[ShotCreator]

2009 Lebron RS/PO: .286 (10-16 ft); .388 (16-3PT) / .444 (10-16 ft); .486 (16-3PT)

I don't understand the revisionist history trying to proclaim he was a good shooter in 09. We knew at the time that he wasn't - that he just got hot. I'll always believe the bubble would've burst had he advanced to play Lakers in Finals. He wasn't consistent enough.

If you want to say "I'm not sure how possible it would have been to duplicate, but LeBron's 2009 playoffs is arguably the best ever", that's fair.

If you want to say "While I won't give him credit in 2009 because of its small sample size, from '09 to '10 in the playoffs, over 1000 minutes and 25 games, he averaged a +10.9 OBPM (a historically insane mark)," that would be fair. It doesn't give him credit for 2009, but it blends 2009 with another season for a more balanced conclusion.

What you can't say is "LeBron was historically unstoppable in 2009 in a way that was a clear outlier, so we're simply going to pretend that it never happened". That's complete garbage.

It smells too much like "When LeBron sucks, it's because he sucks. And when he's historically dominant, it shouldn't be taken seriously."

I didn't say we should pretend it never happened. I provided further context in addition to what Djoker said to help illustrate why Lebron's 09 postseason run was such an outlier, and why it shouldn't be taken as a true representation of his shooting ability during that time. It's not garbage - it's an opinion that's completely supported by the evidence.

By that logic he never should’ve shot so well in the 09 playoffs in the first place.

He went 3 straight rounds shooting at that level, you think he’s magically capped at that level?

Why would I assume that? Why would he ever shoot that well for such a long time if it literally isn’t in his ability as a player. Lol. He literally did it. It’s done.

I could just say say his baseline greatness is his true level as a player for every outlier bad performance and write it off. And really I’d have a stronger case in doing that for a series like his against Boston in 2010 where he clearly had a bum shooting elbow.

[VanWest82]

By that logic he never should’ve shot so well in the 09 playoffs in the first place.

This doesn't even make sense. He shot well because a) he got crazy hot, and b) teams were staying home on Cavs shooters to force Lebron to be a shooter. Context.

He went 3 straight rounds shooting at that level, you think he’s magically capped at that level?

He didn't really go 3 straight rounds at that level as a shooter. He shot extremely well from distance in four games vs. Hawks and then had an out-of-body experience vs. Magic from MR. I'm not debating Lebron's ability to get to the rim and finish vs. average teams. I'm just talking about his shooting.

Why would I assume that? Why would he ever shoot that well for such a long time if it literally isn’t in his ability as a player. Lol. He literally did it. It’s done.

I could just say say his baseline greatness is his true level as a player for every outlier bad performance and write it off. And really I’d have a stronger case in doing that for a series like his against Boston in 2010 where he clearly had a bum shooting elbow.

You say a couple of rounds in playoffs is a long time but I provided YEARS worth of evidence - all the years surrounding the playoffs in question, including his 09 regular season which contradicts the notion that he was a good shooter in 09. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests he just got red hot for a couple of weeks in a way that was out of character.

[Colbinii]

2017 LeBron James
2016 LeBron James
1991 Michael Jordan
1990 Michael Jordan

1992 Michael Jordan
1993 Michael Jordan
2012 LeBron James
2013 LeBron James

2009 LeBron James
1989 Michael Jordan
1988 Michael Jordan

2020 LeBron James

The first tier are the 4 seasons where these players had the combination of physical imprint combined with a clear understanding of the system and could bring their games to levels, when needed, that no other perimeter players in NBA history have achieved. I value Lebron's offensive heliocentrism here and his team defense more in a vacuum than Jordan's scoring and turnover economy with his risk-defined style on the defensive end.

The next tier is where LeBron peaked as a defender and starting to become the greatest offensive player ever but was not there. Jordan on the other hand was insanely diligent with the ball and rattled off two titles with ease. His scoring at this point with his turnover economy was still at his GOAT level but his defensive level wasn't quite there [Slightly fall in athleticism coupled with his style saw some noticeable declines].

The younger styles of these two really was best captured in James 2009 campaign but that season with his relentlessness is no greater than Jordan during the Bad Boy Pistons years. Both players at this point had "it" but still needed to round out their games and be part of a system bigger than themselves--which they both found.

I have 2020 James as a better player than any 2nd 3-peat Jordan for a multitude of reasons. First, James adapted to a new system and new teammates while Jordan joined an existing and familiar family. Second, James wasn't rewarded with HCA during the post-season, something the Bulls routinely had. Third, his offensive game was rivaling his 2016 and 2017 campaigns in many games which is--as mentioned earlier--a level I dont know if Jordan ever met.

[VanWest82]

I equate Lebron's 09 campaign to MJ's 88 season which might've been my favorite even though it wasn't his best. MJ was an animal that year. He might've had the GOAT motor. He became an elite MR shooter. He freaked guys out with his aggressiveness defensively. All that said, I thought by 91 he was a more sophisticated all around player despite not being quite the same level of freak. This is how I look at Lebron 09 vs. 12-13 when he made big leaps in skill development to become a more complete player.

Anyway, in an attempt to get the thread back on track...

91 MJ
90 MJ
92 MJ - criminally underrated because Scottie and Horace had such good years
13 Lebron - his best season start to finish. This is the best non-MJ season ever imo.
12 Lebron
89 MJ
93 MJ
96 MJ
88 MJ
97 MJ
16 Lebron
17 Lebron - these playoffs might have been his actual peak. Lebron is tough because his effort was so inconsistent.
20 Lebron
14 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Lebron - I'm almost for sure underrating 09&10 but I just can't get past his flaws as a shooter.
87 MJ
98 MJ
11 Lebron
08 Lebron

[Djoker]

Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)

Do I consider at 14-game run where a player puts up 35.6 pts on +7.4 rTS an outlier when in the surrounding 65 games the same player puts up 24.7 pts on around +3 rTS? You bet I do.

You say all of that yet are completely discounting the 08 and 2010 regular seasons while only looking at 1 series in each season against top defenses(even in 09 Orl was the #1 def that year). You don't see the lack of consistency in how you are evaluating those seasons? It's the equivalent of only looking at the Det series while evaluating 88-90 MJ. Which I think you can look at and take into account but you don't throw out all the other games from that season based just on those series. Imo 88-90 MJ is slightly overrated here tbh. I personally lean more towards 92-93 being better than 88-89 even though his rs numbers don't bear that out. He was at a point then that LeBron was from 15-18 where the effort wasn't quite there in the rs but he was a better all around player in the ps including a better leader/game manager.

Right. The Magic were the #1 defense and Lebron lit them up while he struggled mightily against great defenses in surrounding years like the 2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2010 Celtics and 2011 Celtics/Bulls/Mavs and calling those Mavs elite defensively is pushing it too. That's exactly why I called the 2009 postseason an outlier. Lebron did nothing of that sort if any surrounding year.

Please note I still rank 2009 Lebron as among the top 10 greatest seasons of all time by any player.

I do have an issue calling 2007 and 2011 part of "the surrounding 65 games". Those occurred in the 2009 and 2010 RS surely.

I wouldn't compare postseason numbers with regular season but with other playoff numbers. However if you insist.

2009 RS: 30.2/8.2/7.8 on +4.7 rTS with 3.2 to (81 games)
2009 PS: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 RS: 30.0/7.4/8.6 on +6.1 rTS with 3.5 to (76 games)

5 more points per 75 with better efficiency. Still a clear outlier...

[Whopper_Sr]

With an approach that favors PS excellence over RS consistency/motor:

1. 2017 LeBron - the perfect basketball player
2. 2016 LeBron - could be argued over 17 but I prefer 17 by a morsel
3. 2012 LeBron - massive PS carry job and his best Miami season
4. 1991 Jordan - by far the greatest peak for a guard but cannot put any guard peak over LeBron's 3 best seasons
5. 1990 Jordan - just a hair worse than his peak form
6. 2009 LeBron - relied on athleticism more than guile (which also lagged behind 30+ year old LBJ's)
7. 2013 LeBron - bouts of uncertainty in the PS knocks this version down a peg even with stellar RS and defensive prowess
8. 1989 Jordan - again, slightly worse than 90
9 & 10. Some combination of 88/93 Jordan and 10/14/18 LeBron (if I have to decide, let me know)

I view 16 and 17 LeBron as a cut above every other player in history. In 16, we saw a player who reached elite big man level defense as a forward. And his 17 LeBron would be viewed as GOAT worthy (some already have it as the GOAT season) if he didn't run into the most ridiculously stacked team of all time.

[VanWest82]

With an approach that favors PS excellence over RS consistency/motor:

1. 2017 LeBron - the perfect basketball player.

I hear what you're saying about 17 playoff Lebron. Here's what I struggled with.

-as much as we might say regular season matters less, 17 Cavs only won 51 games despite a pretty deep roster (that dealt with some injuries) which included three all stars.
-they played the Lowry-less Raptors and Avery Bradley led Celtics to get to Finals
-supposedly the GOAT version of Lebron arguably got outplayed by his positional counterpart in KD who had the higher game score and bigger defensive impact in Finals. KD defended 25 more shots than Lebron that series and held opponents just under their expected average. Lebron meanwhile got torched for 56.3% DFG% and Cavs defense was 10 points per 100 worse with him on the court.

So yes, Lebron was super impressive and it wasn't remotely his fault his team lost vs. an ATG juggernaut, but I struggle with the idea that the best version of the supposed best player ever got played to a draw (at best) by a guy who didn't even make this project. It's a hard one to rationalize.

[Whopper_Sr]

With an approach that favors PS excellence over RS consistency/motor:

1. 2017 LeBron - the perfect basketball player.

I hear what you're saying about 17 playoff Lebron. Here's what I struggled with.

-as much as we might say regular season matters less, 17 Cavs only won 51 games despite a pretty deep roster (that dealt with some injuries) which included three all stars.
-they played the Lowry-less Raptors and Avery Bradley led Celtics to get to Finals
-supposedly the GOAT version of Lebron arguably got outplayed by his positional counterpart in KD who had the higher game score and bigger defensive impact in Finals. KD defended 25 more shots than Lebron that series and held opponents just under their expected average. Lebron meanwhile got torched for 56.3% DFG% and Cavs defense was 10 points per 100 worse with him on the court.

So yes, Lebron was super impressive and it wasn't remotely his fault his team lost vs. an ATG juggernaut, but I struggle with the idea that the best version of the supposed best player ever got played to a draw (at best) by a guy who didn't even make this project. It's a hard one to rationalize.

If you ignore teammates then sure. Durant wasn’t even the 2nd most impactful player on the Warriors that season.

The Cavs went all in on stopping Curry and while it was the correct decision, there was never any hope of them winning the series.

Curry drawing all of the defensive attention left Durant and Klay to wreck havoc on offense with ease. It was further exacerbated by having two elite glue guys in Draymond and Iggy whose high level passing made it even easier to get high quality shots.

I’ve made this comment before but a Khris Middleton type would be able to replicate Durant’s production on that team.

[twyzted]

With an approach that favors PS excellence over RS consistency/motor:

1. 2017 LeBron - the perfect basketball player.

I hear what you're saying about 17 playoff Lebron. Here's what I struggled with.

-as much as we might say regular season matters less, 17 Cavs only won 51 games despite a pretty deep roster (that dealt with some injuries) which included three all stars.
-they played the Lowry-less Raptors and Avery Bradley led Celtics to get to Finals
-supposedly the GOAT version of Lebron arguably got outplayed by his positional counterpart in KD who had the higher game score and bigger defensive impact in Finals. KD defended 25 more shots than Lebron that series and held opponents just under their expected average. Lebron meanwhile got torched for 56.3% DFG% and Cavs defense was 10 points per 100 worse with him on the court.

So yes, Lebron was super impressive and it wasn't remotely his fault his team lost vs. an ATG juggernaut, but I struggle with the idea that the best version of the supposed best player ever got played to a draw (at best) by a guy who didn't even make this project. It's a hard one to rationalize.

If you ignore teammates then sure. Durant wasn’t even the 2nd most impactful player on the Warriors that season.

The Cavs went all in on stopping Curry and while it was the correct decision, there was never any hope of them winning the series.

Curry drawing all of the defensive attention left Durant and Klay to wreck havoc on offense with ease. It was further exacerbated by having two elite glue guys in Draymond and Iggy whose high level passing made it even easier to get high quality shots.

I’ve made this comment before but a Khris Middleton type would be able to replicate Durant’s production on that team.

27ppg@62%ts 8rpg 9apg 2spg i wouldnt say that they had much luck in stopping or even slowing curry down.

So khris middleton would just show up and put up 36ppg@70%ts 8rpg 5apg ?

[DQuinn1575]

With an approach that favors PS excellence over RS consistency/motor:

1. 2017 LeBron - the perfect basketball player
2. 2016 LeBron - could be argued over 17 but I prefer 17 by a morsel
3. 2012 LeBron - massive PS carry job and his best Miami season
4. 1991 Jordan - by far the greatest peak for a guard but cannot put any guard peak over LeBron's 3 best seasons
5. 1990 Jordan - just a hair worse than his peak form
6. 2009 LeBron - relied on athleticism more than guile (which also lagged behind 30+ year old LBJ's)
7. 2013 LeBron - bouts of uncertainty in the PS knocks this version down a peg even with stellar RS and defensive prowess
8. 1989 Jordan - again, slightly worse than 90
9 & 10. Some combination of 88/93 Jordan and 10/14/18 LeBron (if I have to decide, let me know)

I view 16 and 17 LeBron as a cut above every other player in history. In 16, we saw a player who reached elite big man level defense as a forward. And his 17 LeBron would be viewed as GOAT worthy (some already have it as the GOAT season) if he didn't run into the most ridiculously stacked team of all time.

Elite big man level defense? You’re comparing him to Hakeem Ewing Duncan in defense? Has there ever been an elite big man defender who blocked so few shots?? LeBron is a good defensive wing,at times real good.

[LukaTheGOAT]

By that logic he never should’ve shot so well in the 09 playoffs in the first place.

This doesn't even make sense. He shot well because a) he got crazy hot, and b) teams were staying home on Cavs shooters to force Lebron to be a shooter. Context.

He went 3 straight rounds shooting at that level, you think he’s magically capped at that level?

He didn't really go 3 straight rounds at that level as a shooter. He shot extremely well from distance in four games vs. Hawks and then had an out-of-body experience vs. Magic from MR. I'm not debating Lebron's ability to get to the rim and finish vs. average teams. I'm just talking about his shooting.

Why would I assume that? Why would he ever shoot that well for such a long time if it literally isn’t in his ability as a player. Lol. He literally did it. It’s done.

I could just say say his baseline greatness is his true level as a player for every outlier bad performance and write it off. And really I’d have a stronger case in doing that for a series like his against Boston in 2010 where he clearly had a bum shooting elbow.

You say a couple of rounds in playoffs is a long time but I provided YEARS worth of evidence - all the years surrounding the playoffs in question, including his 09 regular season which contradicts the notion that he was a good shooter in 09. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests he just got red hot for a couple of weeks in a way that was out of character.

VanWest you can ignore the following post, because I know you aren't fond of one-number metrics. However, for those who would lend their ears.

There has been a lot of discussion about 2009 Lebron having an outlier playoffs due to small sample size. I think there has to be discussion about 2009 Lebron's season as a whole being outlier, because it would seem it trumps the best that Jordan ever had to offer.

If we look at their RS and or full-season metrics, 09 Lebron looks better on a rate basis than MJ's best seasons in the following respective metrics:

By RAPTOR (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 12.6 (#1 All-Time)

91 MJ: 12.3

Estimated Impact for RS(1952-2013)

09 Lebron: 10.6

88 MJ: 8.9

PIPM (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 9.83 (#1 All-time)

88 MJ: 8.58

TWPR for RS (Since 78)

09 Lebron: 89.78 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 89.30

BPM (Since 74)

09 Lebron: 13.2 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 13

I didn't bother to put the PS, as the gap between Lebron and MJ grows in the PS in favor of Lebron, and people are saying they are weary of 2009 Lebron's play being outlier. By including the RS and/or full season data here, I am showing that Lebron was historic unlike anyone we have ever seen, even outside of his PS play.

Your first question might be why is 1988 MJ's campaign coming out the best in some of these metrics, instead of 91 and it is very possible that 88 MJ's RS was the best of his career...it was his defensive peak after all. But furthermore, it reinforces the idea that MJ's regular season and PS peaks didn't necessarily happen in the same year (91 had a lower defensive motor).

This is counter to Lebron who put it altogether in 2009 and authored his most valuable RS and PS in the very same year, giving him a persuasive argument for having a better season than MJ ever did because of how well everything came together for him. Lebron wasn't just hot for a "couple weeks," he was insane for the whole year to the point that these metrics believe they have not seen anything like him.

Btw, I see people mentioning 2010 Lebron as a disappointment, and while I think 2010 is a worse player than 2009 Lebron, I also feel as if his elbow injury hampered his performance (along with the Delonte West situation). Someone actually did a thread, where when Lebron had more days of rest, he seemed to perform better. In 2011, he clearly was notably heavier and didn't beat guys off the dribble. To me 2009 Lebron is a different player from any other version of Lebron (further backed by these metrics that think he was more valuable). But to each their own.

Overall, 2009 Lebron's motor, focus on offensive rebounding, and scoring aggression were higher than any other points in his career.

[uberhikari]

All those people who defended Djoker looking real suspect right now.

Sure, let's discount the entire 2009 season because it is an outlier. Peak seasons, by definition, are outliers because they are the very, very best seasons a player has ever had. What kind of logic suggests we should discount how good a season is because other surrounding seasons weren't as good. That's like discounting '03 Duncan because if we look two years in either direction '03 looks like an outlier in terms of his playoff performance, lol. Ditto for '67 Wilt's playoff performance. Ditto for McGrady's '03 season. I could go on and on...

[No-more-rings]

Why does 2010 LeBron get written off so easily? By just about every measure it's on par with his '09 season and I consider even more impressive considering outside of LeBron the Cavs shot 29% from 3 vs 41% in '09. Is 2 bad playoff games against a great defense really enough to knock it from arguably being his peak to just an average prime season?

Basically yeah, that is why people write it off when it's silly to. It's a clear top 5 Lebron season if people are interested in objectivity, instead of narratives or emotion.

Let's take a look.

For regular season PER it's his 3rd best, for BPM it's 2nd.

For playoff PER it's only 8th, but 3rd in BPM, not one of his better playoff runs we know that but garbage by any means.

Lebron crushed all impact metrics that year.

Record wise that's the 3rd highest he's led, despite teammates being clearly worse than say his Miami Heat teams or 2nd stint Cavs teams.

Prior to the last 3 games against Boston he was averaging 32/8.5/7.4 2.9 tov 65.5 ts%

Now with that said sure he could've done better, but he didn't have an Anthony Davis or Kyrie or D Wade to help with the offensive load.

I'm not going to vote but I consider LeBron to be a better player on average than Jordan. I see them as roughly equal offensively (Jordan was probably a hair better until LeBron's 2nd stint Cleveland years) but there's a solid gap between the two in defensive impact.

Well careful now. Lebron's best offense and defense never coincided at least not for a full season. Lebron's offensive peak is around 2017+2018, but his defense then wasn't what it was during the 09-13 time frame. Peak offense and defense Lebron would be better than Jordan but it never happened. And i sure hope you don't consider 2020 Lebron to be near peak offense lol.

[homecourtloss]

‪1. '09 LeBron — the impact numbers in both RS and PS and the carry job of a that cast to 66 wins and an 8+ SRS are unrivaled. I think this is the peak season even though for concentrated amounts of time, I believe 2016-2017 LeBron is a better player‬
2. ‘91 Jordan- Contention for GOAT season. Everything just came together between athleticism, playmaking, smoothness of that turnaround fade, everything
3. ‪ ‘12 LeBron — high motor impact throughout RS and PS and incredibly robust overall game ‬
4. ‘13 LeBron — same as ‘12, 27 game win streak, playoffs impact metrics not as good, but much of that has to do with playing with an injured Wade who wasn’t very good in the playoffs.
5. 16 LeBron — Regular season not as good but highest possible level vs. 73 win team. Unbelievably low FTr even though shot more at the rim than in any other season. More calls there and season moves up. ‬
6. 90 Jordan —Just under his best season
7. ‘89 Jordan - Close to 1990 Jordan
8. ‪‘17 LeBron — offensive mastery of game in playoffs, and only literally the GOAT team could stop him from winning a title. I think this is his offensive peak but regular season not as good. Cannot see a team losing a title unless it’s a juggernaut of juggernaut team in the Finals and even then, he was +6 on court through 4 games
9. ‘88 Jordan — not as polished as later versions
10. ‪‘10 LeBron — Don’t feel right placing him this far down since metrics close to 2009 metrics but playoffs not as subli‬me but did have injury. There’s a very good argument this is a top 3 season for James, but there are so many great seasons between these two.
11. ‘‪20 LeBron — highly underrated season. He led an unconventional team playing against the prevailing success tactics of the era to a title. When paired with a player playing really well (i.e., AD), Lebron showed how dominant his team can be. That Lakers team had four 30+ point leads innthe 4th quarter of playoff games, six games up 27+ in the fourth...‬
12. ‘92 Jordan — close to ‘93 Jordan

[magicman1978]

I struggle with ranking some of LeBron's seasons because his playoff peaks don't align well with his regular season peaks. I think LeBron has peaked higher on a game-by-game basis than Jordan because of his defensive impact, but he's also not quite as consistent as Jordan. If I had to rank the top 10, I would be something like:

90/91 - Jordan (best combination of regular season and post season play)
09/12/13 - LeBron (I think these were LeBron's best combination of regular season and post season play)
88/89/93 - Jordan (I have 88/89 a bit lower because I feel like he was still trying to figure out how to really fully leverage his teammates; 93 he wasn't as good defensively as 90/91)
16/17 - LeBron (GOAT post-seasons, but not as focused/consistent in the regular season)
10/18 - LeBron

[Djoker]

All those people who defended Djoker looking real suspect right now.

Sure, let's discount the entire 2009 season because it is an outlier. Peak seasons, by definition, are outliers because they are the very, very best seasons a player has ever had. What kind of logic suggests we should discount how good a season is because other surrounding seasons weren't as good. That's like discounting '03 Duncan because if we look two years in either direction '03 looks like an outlier in terms of his playoff performance, lol. Ditto for '67 Wilt's playoff performance. Ditto for McGrady's '03 season. I could go on and on...

I don't want to offend you personally but I honestly think you lack reading comprehension or simply didn't read my post. I said I consider 2009 Lebron as one of the ten best seasons of all time by a basketball player. I just said that I slightly hesitate about this season and end up ranking it below other GOAT peaks because of its outlier status. I certainly don't discount it in any way.

And yes 2003 Duncan was an outlier but not to the same extent. 2002 Duncan was very similar and even 2001 wasn't far off and then in 2007 he played even greater defense. And at least with Duncan we can explain some of his decline post-2003 with nagging injuries. Meanwhile 2009 Lebron in terms of playoff numbers is a massive outlier. He never again in his career had within 3.7 points/75 in the postseason and had just one postseason of within 5.6 points/75.

Playoffs Per 75:

2006 Lebron: 27.8/7.3/5.3 on +2.1 rTS with 4.5 to (13 games)
2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)
2012 Lebron: 29.0/9.3/5.4 on +4.9 rTS with 3.4 to (23 games)
2013 Lebron: 25.6/8.3/6.5 on +5.0 rTS with 3.0 to (23 games)
2014 Lebron: 30.0/7.7/5.2 on +12.7 rTS with 3.4 to (20 games)
2015 Lebron: 28.3/10.7/8.0 on -4.7 rTS with 3.8 to (20 games)
2016 Lebron: 26.7/9.7/7.7 on +4.4 rTS with 3.6 to (21 games)
2017 Lebron: 29.6/8.3/7.1 on +9.7 rTS with 3.6 to (18 games)
2018 Lebron: 31.9/8.6/8.5 on +6.4 rTS with 4.0 to (22 games) ---> ONLY OTHER POSTSEASON >30 POINTS
2020 Lebron: 28.2/11.0/8.9 on +8.2 rTS with 4.1 to (21 games)
2021 Lebron: 24.0/7.4/8.3 on -0.7 rTS with 4.3 to (3 games)

[VanWest82]

VanWest you can ignore the following post, because I know you aren't fond of one-number metrics. However, for those who would lend their ears.

Spoiler:

There has been a lot of discussion about 2009 Lebron having an outlier playoffs due to small sample size. I think there has to be discussion about 2009 Lebron's season as a whole being outlier, because it would seem it trumps the best that Jordan ever had to offer.

If we look at their RS and or full-season metrics, 09 Lebron looks better on a rate basis than MJ's best seasons in the following respective metrics:

By RAPTOR (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 12.6 (#1 All-Time)

91 MJ: 12.3

Estimated Impact for RS(1952-2013)

09 Lebron: 10.6

88 MJ: 8.9

PIPM (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 9.83 (#1 All-time)

88 MJ: 8.58

TWPR for RS (Since 78)

09 Lebron: 89.78 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 89.30

BPM (Since 74)

09 Lebron: 13.2 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 13

I didn't bother to put the PS, as the gap between Lebron and MJ grows in the PS in favor of Lebron, and people are saying they are weary of 2009 Lebron's play being outlier. By including the RS and/or full season data here, I am showing that Lebron was historic unlike anyone we have ever seen, even outside of his PS play.

Your first question might be why is 1988 MJ's campaign coming out the best in some of these metrics, instead of 91 and it is very possible that 88 MJ's RS was the best of his career...it was his defensive peak after all. But furthermore, it reinforces the idea that MJ's regular season and PS peaks didn't necessarily happen in the same year (91 had a lower defensive motor).

This is counter to Lebron who put it altogether in 2009 and authored his most valuable RS and PS in the very same year, giving him a persuasive argument for having a better season than MJ ever did because of how well everything came together for him. Lebron wasn't just hot for a "couple weeks," he was insane for the whole year to the point that these metrics believe they have not seen anything like him.

Btw, I see people mentioning 2010 Lebron as a disappointment, and while I think 2010 is a worse player than 2009 Lebron, I also feel as if his elbow injury hampered his performance (along with the Delonte West situation). Someone actually did a thread, where when Lebron had more days of rest, he seemed to perform better. In 2011, he clearly was notably heavier and didn't beat guys off the dribble. To me 2009 Lebron is a different player from any other version of Lebron (further backed by these metrics that think he was more valuable). But to each their own.

Overall, 2009 Lebron's motor, focus on offensive rebounding, and scoring aggression were higher than any other points in his career.

Seeing as you quoted me directly I will respond.

Wrt all-in-ones, I believe that eventually NBA will release enough game film that we can calculate line up data for all the missing years. I also believe tech and programming will advance to the point where we'll be able to retrofit tracking to these old games, or maybe people will just track things (deflections, charges, shot contests, DFG%, etc.) the old fashioned way and we'll be able to get young Lebron and MJ's actual RAPTOR for the years in question. At that point, I will be happy to accept your all-in-one argument. Until then, as we've discussed, I'm out on non-tracking, plus/minus-estimated metrics as any kind of real arbiter.

RE 09, I think there's a good case to be made it was the best statistical regular season performance ever. Certainly Wilt has a good case as well as 88 MJ and some others. And if you only look at the stats, Lebron's 09 playoffs was even better. So I completely get how you guys might say it's the GOAT statistical season. Except, as I mentioned in the previous Lebron thread, Lebron himself acknowledges that he was an incomplete player pre-2012, and credits Dwane Casey for exposing that (Thibs and Pop deserve a shout out as well imo) and forcing him to have to improve the obvious deficiencies in his game (mainly shooting and post play) in order to become a complete player who didn't get perennially exposed in the playoffs.

In other words, there's a fairly pronounced cognitive bias - something like an Ostrich effect - required to call 09 the GOAT season. We have to live with the knowledge that Lebron was undeniably flawed but that due to the specific circumstances of that post season he did not get exposed like in 07, 08, 10, and 11.

I suppose one could counter with "you can only play who's in front of you" and there is some truth to that. But I can't just pretend like those issues didn't exist just because Lebron got a little lucky with circumstance. I am happy to acknowledge that he was particularly awesome in 09 but if we're going to just blatantly ignore player flaws then we might as well start calling 04 KG or 94 DRob the GOAT. They have pretty solid statistical cases as well.

[DQuinn1575]

VanWest you can ignore the following post, because I know you aren't fond of one-number metrics. However, for those who would lend their ears.

Spoiler:

There has been a lot of discussion about 2009 Lebron having an outlier playoffs due to small sample size. I think there has to be discussion about 2009 Lebron's season as a whole being outlier, because it would seem it trumps the best that Jordan ever had to offer.

If we look at their RS and or full-season metrics, 09 Lebron looks better on a rate basis than MJ's best seasons in the following respective metrics:

By RAPTOR (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 12.6 (#1 All-Time)

91 MJ: 12.3

Estimated Impact for RS(1952-2013)

09 Lebron: 10.6

88 MJ: 8.9

PIPM (Since 77)

09 Lebron: 9.83 (#1 All-time)

88 MJ: 8.58

TWPR for RS (Since 78)

09 Lebron: 89.78 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 89.30

BPM (Since 74)

09 Lebron: 13.2 (#1 All-Time)

88 MJ: 13

I didn't bother to put the PS, as the gap between Lebron and MJ grows in the PS in favor of Lebron, and people are saying they are weary of 2009 Lebron's play being outlier. By including the RS and/or full season data here, I am showing that Lebron was historic unlike anyone we have ever seen, even outside of his PS play.

Your first question might be why is 1988 MJ's campaign coming out the best in some of these metrics, instead of 91 and it is very possible that 88 MJ's RS was the best of his career...it was his defensive peak after all. But furthermore, it reinforces the idea that MJ's regular season and PS peaks didn't necessarily happen in the same year (91 had a lower defensive motor).

This is counter to Lebron who put it altogether in 2009 and authored his most valuable RS and PS in the very same year, giving him a persuasive argument for having a better season than MJ ever did because of how well everything came together for him. Lebron wasn't just hot for a "couple weeks," he was insane for the whole year to the point that these metrics believe they have not seen anything like him.

Btw, I see people mentioning 2010 Lebron as a disappointment, and while I think 2010 is a worse player than 2009 Lebron, I also feel as if his elbow injury hampered his performance (along with the Delonte West situation). Someone actually did a thread, where when Lebron had more days of rest, he seemed to perform better. In 2011, he clearly was notably heavier and didn't beat guys off the dribble. To me 2009 Lebron is a different player from any other version of Lebron (further backed by these metrics that think he was more valuable). But to each their own.

Overall, 2009 Lebron's motor, focus on offensive rebounding, and scoring aggression were higher than any other points in his career.

Seeing as you quoted me directly I will respond.

Wrt all-in-ones, I believe that eventually NBA will release enough game film that we can calculate line up data for all the missing years. I also believe tech and programming will advance to the point where we'll be able to retrofit tracking to these old games, or maybe people will just track things (deflections, charges, shot contests, DFG%, etc.) the old fashioned way, and we'll be able to get young Lebron and MJ's actual RAPTOR for the years in question. At that point, I will be happy to accept your all-in-one argument. Until then, as we've discussed, I'm out on non-tracking, plus/minus-estimated metrics as any kind of real arbiter.

RE 09, I think there's a good case to be made it was the best statistical regular season performance ever. Certainly Wilt has a good case as well as 88 MJ and some others. And if you only look at the stats, Lebron's 09 playoffs was even better. So I completely get how you guys might say it's the GOAT season. Except, as I mentioned in the previous Lebron thread, Lebron himself acknowledges that he was an incomplete player pre-2012, and credits Dwane Casey for exposing that (Thibs and Pop deserve a shout out as well imo) and forcing him to have to improve the obvious deficiencies in his game (mainly shooting and post play) in order to become a complete player who didn't get perennially exposed in the playoffs.

In other words, there's a fairly pronounced cognitive bias required - something like an Ostrich effect - in order to call 09 the GOAT season. We have to live with the knowledge that Lebron was undeniably flawed but that due to the specific circumstances of that post season he did not get exposed like in 07, 08, 10, and 11.

I suppose one could counter with "you can only play who's in front of you" and there is some truth to that. But I can't just pretend like those issues didn't exist just because Lebron got a little lucky with circumstance. I am happy to acknowledge that he was awesome though. But if we're going to just blatantly ignore player flaws then we might as well start calling 04 KG or 94 DRob the GOAT. They have pretty solid statistical cases as well.

Old film wasn't always kept, and not every game was televised during Jordan's time in Chicago. You can track available film, but you're never going to see the complete set.

[PistolPeteJR]

temptatively and before checking stats in depth

tier 1: 89-91 jordan vs 09,12,13 lebron
tier 2: 88,92-93 jordan vs 10,14,16 lebron
tier 3: 96-97 jordan vs 17-18 lebron
tier 4: 87,98 jordan vs 11,20 lebron

would be the "matchups" to start with imo

I think James has a pretty decent chance against Jordan because even though Jordan peaked slightly higher with more seasons for the low end.

My tiers for the 2;
1990/1991 Jordan
2009/2012/2013 James
(I think that James did not peak just as high but he clearly peaked higher than any other Jordan season)
1989/1993 Jordan vs. 2014/2016 James
1988/1992 Jordan vs. 2010/2017 James

And that rounds up the 12. This might be the only comparison I will leave out one of 1988 Jordan and 2010/2017 James entirely, let alone Jordan’s 1996.

You have probably already expanded on this in the past knowing your thorough and consistent contributions on this board, but I'm curious to know why you seem to be lower on 2017 James than I think most people seem to be? Just brainstorming, not assuming, but is it because he didn't win, because the Cavs weren't too competitive in the Finals, other reasons I presume?