Why is Steph Curry labeled as "changing the game" when he hasnt forced the league to change or alter anything?

[falcolombardi]

Yep--he changed it alright. Turned it into a game for chuckers, greatly devaluing the mid-range and inside games that used to make it interesting and amenable to different strategies that would best fit the skills and strengths of the personnel on individual teams. To me, he's basically just made the game simply not worth watching anymore. I used to go to three-four games a year, which cost a lot of money for a guy with a modest income like me. Now I seriously wouldn't walk across the street to see an NBA game if it was free.

How to fix the mess it has become? Move the three point line out four or five feet and totally eliminate the corner three. That way only the truly great shooters would be justifiably rewarded for long-range shooting and all the mediocre chuckers would have to go back to emphasizing high-percentage shots, and fives would no longer be the secondary or even tertiary role players they are in today's game.

But then I'm old--so what do I know?

do you actually think chucking la somethingh curry invented? were iverson, kobe, marbury, starks not chucking at times just because they shot from a bit inside a line instead?

is fine to like how basketball used to be played, is another thingh ro arbitraly denigrate different skillsets used today just because they prefer their jumpers from 24 feet instead of 18

[Statlanta]

History is written by the winners.

The Phoenix Suns and the Houston Rockets are losers.
The Spurs, LeBron's teams and the Golden State Warriors were the winners.

More people will attribute the changes in the league to the winners than the losers.

[Cavsfansince84]

Changed the game is a pretty lazy form of analysis imo. He's the best shooter of all time which carries its own weight in a game largely built upon shooting the ball. He just perpetuated trends which were already going on. Getting more guys to take 3's over long 2's and more guys to feel free to shoot it from 30 feet.

[countryboy667]

Yep--he changed it alright. Turned it into a game for chuckers, greatly devaluing the mid-range and inside games that used to make it interesting and amenable to different strategies that would best fit the skills and strengths of the personnel on individual teams. To me, he's basically just made the game simply not worth watching anymore. I used to go to three-four games a year, which cost a lot of money for a guy with a modest income like me. Now I seriously wouldn't walk across the street to see an NBA game if it was free.

How to fix the mess it has become? Move the three point line out four or five feet and totally eliminate the corner three. That way only the truly great shooters would be justifiably rewarded for long-range shooting and all the mediocre chuckers would have to go back to emphasizing high-percentage shots, and fives would no longer be the secondary or even tertiary role players they are in today's game.

But then I'm old--so what do I know?

do you actually think chucking la somethingh curry invented? were iverson, kobe, marbury, starks not chucking at times just because they shot from a bit inside a line instead?

is fine to like how basketball used to be played, is another thingh ro arbitraly denigrate different skillsets used today just because they prefer their jumpers from 24 feet instead of 18

It has homogenized the game to the point of being boring and totally predictable. Today every team, if it wants to be successful, has to be a clone of the Warriors. It used to be there were teams built primarily on their inside game, other teams built primarily on their outside game, others primarily on their defense, others on their physicality, yet others on their speed, their size, etc. all depending on the skill sets and abilities and attributes of the players on their rosters. There was an interesting VARIETY in the game that is missing today. If the arc was further out, there would still be room for the Stephen Currys (who is NOT a chucker--for him, that's legitimately his game) the truly great, legitimate long-range artists, without making the guys who thrive on the midrange game or on post play just afterthoughts, just complimentary role players like they are today. There was something magical about seeing a Wilt Chamberlain go up against Bill Russell or Nate Thurmond or Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the brute power of a Karl Malone, the lightning-quick hands and uncanny defense of a Walt Frazier, the impeccable fundamentals of an Oscar Robertson, the incredible stamina of a John Havlicek that younger fans just don't seem to understand or appreciate. The three-point chuckers, along with the flagrant and blatant bastardization of the most basic rules of the game--especially steps, palming, etc.--have taken most of that away, and the game is much poorer for the lack of those things. When a guy like the Pacer's Domantas Sabonis, who gets you a double double every game and is a great distributor, but is considered somehow lacking because he can't jack the three, the game has truly gone astray.

And yes--I hated the chuckers before the three took over the game. I think Iverson, in particular, while admittedly a wonderful athlete, was maybe the most grossly overrated player in the history of the game.

[Laimbeer]

Are we talking about forcing a rule/officiating change or changing how the game is played?

Clearly he hasn't done the first. Hell, he made the NBA love the three even more. As for the second, I'd ask this - would the game have evolved the same way had he never played? Pretty clearly, yes.

I'd describe it more as Steph riding the wave of change like no one else. He was the face of the change, but he wasn't responsible for it.

[Outside]

From the perspective of one of the Cavs, how Curry changed the game. This is from 12/20/2021.

Watch on YouTube

[/quote]

Note: language.

The early part is an entertaining take on Klay, but the part applicable to this thread starts around 2:25.

It's two different styles. And we kinda knew, we all knew, like, whoever wins the most of this little war we got goin' on, whoever wins the most chips, basketball's headed in that style. That's what was scary about, like, we knew it meant more, cause we like, bro, like, the kids are gonna either continue to go to the post and want to shoot fadeaways, or they gonna think this **** okay. This shootin' this **** from halfcourt ****. Like, we was taught [ramble] we been talking about this ****, man, he wanna shoot that **** from 40, let 'em shoot that **** from 40. **** him. [ramble] He wanna shoot that **** from 40, let him shoot that **** from 40 dawg. Shoot that all night. Like, that's how I'm feeling when I'm really on the court, like, bro, I wish you would. Pull that bro. Please so we can run this down y'all throat. Please shoot that. That's how we felt about it.

Til this little **** started makin' it. But it's like, once he start makin' it, now T-Lue lookin' at us at the drawing board, like, so y'all gonna get out there? Shump, what we gonna do? You shocked? You shocked he makin' it now? Like, it got to that point, it's like, bro, when I think about now, I'm just like, bro... [pause] I keep saying basketball changed, like they ruined it type of thing, but I'm like, you ruined the version that I like... When you really think about, pound for pound, how basketball is today, it's scary how good they are.

[Warriors Analyst]

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

Okay, let's focus on that.

Biggest thing we have to start from understanding: It's not clear cut what year is the most significant in terms of 3-point innovation. There are a number of candidates, and we can list them out if folks want to.

What I will say is that it is clear who the most important coach in this paradigm shift is: Mike D'Antoni. That's actually a quite reasonable thing to bring up when questioning who the most important person was in all this, because I think you can make a great case that D'Antoni is indeed that person, rather than Curry.

However, if we're going to focus on one D'Antoni year, that year is quite clearly '04-05. By the time D'Antoni arrived in Houston, he'd already been hired several times as the "shoots lots of 3's" guy, so it really would be quite noteworthy if the man changed the game more with his 5th stint as an NBA coach. '04-05 is the year he went from being an unknown to being seen as a genius revolutionary.

In terms of why it's generally seen as being Curry-led among the players:

1. Typically, copycatting happens once a team becomes champion. It doesn't happen dramatically with all champions, but when a new, but obvious strategy leads to a championship, and THEN leads to the team being even better the next year, we should expect a dramatic jump.

The Warriors won the title in '14-15, and then came out of the gates far stronger in '15-16. From 2015-16 to 2016-17 we see a 12% jump in league 3PA, which is the largest jump we've scene since the year in the '90s when they moved the 3-point line in. The causality seems pretty clear.


Of course, the irony: The only reason we see a jump that big, is because the Rockets hired Mike D'Antoni that off-season, and the team then proceeded to shoot way more 3's than everyone else. So what exactly is causing what?

What's really undeniable though is that Curry & Harden came into the league at the same time, and Curry just broke the 3-point record before Harden for reasons that have a lot to do with him leading the league in shooting 3's five times before Harden ever did. Curry, in other words, can be said to have changed Harden's game considerably more than the other way around.

Let's just compare where each guy was coming from in college:

Harden took 28.5% of his shooting attempts from 3.
Curry took 42.1%.

Curry's a guy who grew up practicing to be primarily a 3-point shooter trained by his NBA 3-point shooting father.
Harden's a guy whose 3-point shooting grew over his career specifically because he was following a wave that was already swelling.

shouldnt curry be ahead of harden in 3 point attempts, since harden started his 3 years as a 6th man... i mean curry had an entire 3 yr headstart to accumulate the volume.. and even then harden is still on track to finish top 2 ever

as for teams copycatting the warriors.. I dont see how thats the case at all, its not what im seeing at least from teams around the league. In fact people overlook the fact that the warriors have had generally one of the highest payrolls in the nba during currys prime years. He had a roster with draymond making mid level max, klay on a max, iggy making 16 million coming off the bench and then kd and curry as supermax guys. Not many teams can afford to pay that kind of luxury bill.


As for mike dantoni, people forget many thought the rockets made a bad hire, after mike failed with the lakers and the knicks with kobe and melo prior to joining the rockets. Many thought harden was of a similar mold to those players and that it wouldnt work out.

Not comparing college stats, as its pointless in this debate about the nba. But the stepback 3 is an icionic shot made popular by james harden, just as the eurostep was made popular by ginobili and to a lesser extent dwayne wade

As for winning a championship with that style, that goes back to an owner spending money. Tillman fertita and les alexander have never paid the tax at all during hardens time as a rocket. So harden did way more heavy lifting than curry would have had to

ALSO ONCE AGAIN THE ROCKETS WERE SHOOTING 30 THREES A NIGHT PRETTY MUCH WITH KEVIN MCHALE AS HEAD COACH.

this myth that the rockets style started under mike dantoni is not true at all

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2013.html#all_team_and_opponent

warriors WERE shooting 19.9 threes pre game back in the 2013 season, and the average only got up to 19.9 because after the game the rockets set the record againist them, they finished that season 2nd in 3 point attempts to the rockets for the remainder of that season. Prior to that game they were middle of the pack

the rockets back in 2013 were shooting 28.9.. nearly 30 threes a game.. by far first in the league

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013.html#all_team_and_opponent

Two things here:

You ignore that Doctor MJ pointed to 3 point attempts as a percentage of all shots, rather than pure volume.

It's also completely nonsensical to claim that the Warriors' three-point rate went up IN REACTION to the Rockets breaking the all-time record for three-pointers made in a game. You do not have any factual basis for that.

[falcolombardi]

From the perspective of one of the Cavs, how Curry changed the game. This is from 12/20/2021.

Watch on YouTube

Note: language.

The early part is an entertaining take on Klay, but the part applicable to this thread starts around 2:25.

It's two different styles. And we kinda knew, we all knew, like, whoever wins the most of this little war we got goin' on, whoever wins the most chips, basketball's headed in that style. That's what was scary about, like, we knew it meant more, cause we like, bro, like, the kids are gonna either continue to go to the post and want to shoot fadeaways, or they gonna think this **** okay. This shootin' this **** from halfcourt ****. Like, we was taught [ramble] we been talking about this ****, man, he wanna shoot that **** from 40, let 'em shoot that **** from 40. **** him. [ramble] He wanna shoot that **** from 40, let him shoot that **** from 40 dawg. Shoot that all night. Like, that's how I'm feeling when I'm really on the court, like, bro, I wish you would. Pull that bro. Please so we can run this down y'all throat. Please shoot that. That's how we felt about it.

Til this little **** started makin' it. But it's like, once he start makin' it, now T-Lue lookin' at us at the drawing board, like, so y'all gonna get out there? Shump, what we gonna do? You shocked? You shocked he makin' it now? Like, it got to that point, it's like, bro, when I think about now, I'm just like, bro... [pause] I keep saying basketball changed, like they ruined it type of thing, but I'm like, you ruined the version that I like... When you really think about, pound for pound, how basketball is today, it's scary how good they are.[/quote]

what he says is how it kinda felt in 2018

rockets own take on 3-ball took the league by stormbas much as the warriors did in 15 or 16 (they were also comparably good with a case for being better imo)

that they almost beat the warriors -with dursnt- felt like it could have been a deciding moment for where basketball
was headed
in a sort of battle between stationary helio ball with stars and role players vs the motion ball offense of kerr, both built around the 3 ball and small ball in different ways

in hindsight that may have felt bigger than it actually was tho

pd: is odd how often rockets, and texas teams as a whole, find themselves heading key trends in the nba

dallas nellieball with dirk and nash preceding the revolution that was coming in Phoenix

houston hakeem teams creating the first great 4-out offense and champion (arguably the first "jumpshooting" champion the way Charles barkley would define it) then harden and morey rockets pushing the 3 point meta both shooting -and- 3 pt defense with switching

and spurs being ahead of the Curve with popovich and buford in scouting international talent and kind of giving use in 2012-2014 a glance of what ball movement with smart passers and good 3 point shooting would lead to (warriors ball )

[SpreeS]

Not amount of 3PA changed NBA, but 3P range did it...

1. Canon - shooter as main guy can't win NBA. Changed by Curry
2. Shooting range/shot difficulty - bad shot became good shot. Changed by Curry
3. 3P range opened space for others - Shooting range with elite dribbling attracted more defence's attention to the midcourt and opened floor for teammates. Changed by Curry

[Onus]

From the perspective of one of the Cavs, how Curry changed the game. This is from 12/20/2021.

Watch on YouTube

I really like this interview, but the interviewer is horrible. You could tell Shump had more to say but the interviewer did not pick up on those cues and try to flesh out the thoughts more and just moved on. Which is a shame.

[HardenandWilt]

rockets were shooting 3's in bunches long before the warriors. The warriors were just better equipped to use moreys philosphy.

also most teams in the nba who cant afford to spend like the warriors are using moreyball.. hawks, mavs, suns, and jazz

ever heard the saying, imitation is biggest form of flattery. How many teams do you see in the league copying the warriors brand of basketball. I dont see any, in fact i see many young players copying james harden( so much so that adam silver had to implent drastic changes as to what a foul is)

shouldnt trae young( who was compared to curry during his draft process) be copying steph curry. If curry is this giant trailblazer that sparked change

the sidestep/stepback 3 was also brought to the league by harden

[HardenandWilt]

From the perspective of one of the Cavs, how Curry changed the game. This is from 12/20/2021.

Watch on YouTube

Note: language.

The early part is an entertaining take on Klay, but the part applicable to this thread starts around 2:25.

It's two different styles. And we kinda knew, we all knew, like, whoever wins the most of this little war we got goin' on, whoever wins the most chips, basketball's headed in that style. That's what was scary about, like, we knew it meant more, cause we like, bro, like, the kids are gonna either continue to go to the post and want to shoot fadeaways, or they gonna think this **** okay. This shootin' this **** from halfcourt ****. Like, we was taught [ramble] we been talking about this ****, man, he wanna shoot that **** from 40, let 'em shoot that **** from 40. **** him. [ramble] He wanna shoot that **** from 40, let him shoot that **** from 40 dawg. Shoot that all night. Like, that's how I'm feeling when I'm really on the court, like, bro, I wish you would. Pull that bro. Please so we can run this down y'all throat. Please shoot that. That's how we felt about it.

Til this little **** started makin' it. But it's like, once he start makin' it, now T-Lue lookin' at us at the drawing board, like, so y'all gonna get out there? Shump, what we gonna do? You shocked? You shocked he makin' it now? Like, it got to that point, it's like, bro, when I think about now, I'm just like, bro... [pause] I keep saying basketball changed, like they ruined it type of thing, but I'm like, you ruined the version that I like... When you really think about, pound for pound, how basketball is today, it's scary how good they are.[/quote]


iman shumpert doesnt answer my question, the 3 point rate was already accelerating thx to the rockets in the early 2010's

the warriors didnt start anything

[prophet_of_rage]

There are positive and negative game changers. Curry is an example of the former and Harden an example of the latter.

There is no reason to believe that the NBA would change the rules to contain the effectiveness of someone who made the game better.

Furthermore, Curry and the Warriors get the credit for the 3 point revolution because they enjoyed ultimate success pursuing that strategy. They proved it could work. That Harden and Morey dabbled in those strategies a little earlier is nothing more than an historical footnote.

Exactly. Much as I disl8ke him the NBA promoted Jordan's style of play. More people try to play like Steph than Harden.

Logo 3s are Steph, 5 out motiins are Steph, using footwork to get off a 3 is Steph. These young kids are emulating Steph. That's how he changed the game.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[prophet_of_rage]

This is tricky for me because i love steph curry.. all-time great shooter, but i cant get over the fact that it is of my opinion that i believe it was Harden along with Daryl Morey and at the time sam hinkie that had more impact on how the game is played today and not steph curry or the warriors

Too me Harden in 15-20 years from now will be seen as a game changer. A player so dominant that he literally forced the nba to change or alter what fouls really were.

They didn't have to change the rules because of Harden being unstoppable at basketball, they did it because refereeing norms had become a laughingstock compared to how basketball is played normally. Not remotely the same category as actually adding rules because a guy is unstoppable if there aren't rules preventing him from using his basketball abilities.

I'll add that Curry certainly did change the game because he a) further accelerated the move toward 3-point strategy in the current game, and b) almost certainly became the greatest influence on upcoming generations of kids who will eventually be in the NBA.

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[HardenandWilt]

Lol terrible thread. People like OP are the reason why the judicial system looks at stuff by the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Anyone with half a brain could see how Curry completely shifted basketball zeitgeist ever since his first MVP season. OP the typa dude to look at box scores to determine who the best player on the floor was instead of watching games

The rockets started the change, not the warriors

the warriors were just more well equipped to run and put an emphasis on the 3 point shot. But it was Daryl Morey and Sam Hnkie at t
the forefront to bring analytics to the game of basketball

[HardenandWilt]

They didn't have to change the rules because of Harden being unstoppable at basketball, they did it because refereeing norms had become a laughingstock compared to how basketball is played normally. Not remotely the same category as actually adding rules because a guy is unstoppable if there aren't rules preventing him from using his basketball abilities.

I'll add that Curry certainly did change the game because he a) further accelerated the move toward 3-point strategy in the current game, and b) almost certainly became the greatest influence on upcoming generations of kids who will eventually be in the NBA.

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

[Doctor MJ]

Lol terrible thread. People like OP are the reason why the judicial system looks at stuff by the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Anyone with half a brain could see how Curry completely shifted basketball zeitgeist ever since his first MVP season. OP the typa dude to look at box scores to determine who the best player on the floor was instead of watching games

The rockets started the change, not the warriors

the warriors were just more well equipped to run and put an emphasis on the 3 point shot. But it was Daryl Morey and Sam Hnkie at t
the forefront to bring analytics to the game of basketball

Man, it's already been explained to you all sorts of nuance that pre-dates these Rockets, and you're still not even bothering to incorporate any of that into your worldview.

You're stuck. You've got an opinion that aggrandizes a particular player - Harden - and despite the fact you're now in a group who understands your reasoning precisely and has rebutted you, none of it is sticking.

You need to take a step back and reconsider your assumptions or you're going to be stuck like this forever as younger people who currently know nothing about basketball rapidly learn the things your ego won't let you.

[prophet_of_rage]

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

Moreyball isn't a thing in terms of offence. It waa D'Antoni ball. And nobody runs the Rockets 3 fixed spot shooters and the high pick and roll. They all move. That's the Warriors influence not the Rockets.



Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[prophet_of_rage]

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

It doesn't take salary to run a constant motion offence.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[HardenandWilt]

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

Moreyball isn't a thing in terms of offence. It waa D'Antoni ball. And nobody runs the Rockets 3 fixed spot shooters and the high pick and roll. They all move. That's the Warriors influence not the Rockets.



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https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/07/28/which-nba-teams-play-moreyball-best/

morey and hinkie brought analytics and the 3 is greater than the mid range jumper analysis to the nba( this is common knowledge to anyone outside of the bay area). Like i said before, the warriors just had the talent to ride the coattails and steal what morey already brought to the league. As you can see from the video i posted in the first post of this thread. The rockets set an nba record of 3's againist the warriors in 2013, and the warriors looked completely lost on how to defend the rockets lol. But yea go ahead run with the talking point that curry changed the game, when it was obviosuly harden and morey., Like my title says if curry made all these teams chuck 50 threes a night, then why doesnt adam silver move the 3 point line back. Seems like the only player in the league getting nerfed for causing change is James Harden. Most of the young nba guards emulate Harden, not curry