How efficient was Kareem's skyhook? Would it be valuable today?

[70sFan]

What's his TS when leave those 5 games against Wilt?

Overall or on skyhook attempts?

Overall, Kareem averaged 30.9 ppg on 60.1 TS% and 56.5 FG% in 27 games without ones against the Lakers.

His skyhook efficiency was at 56 FG% without these 5 games vs Wilt.

Are these hooks from mid-range? I mean 8-16ft?

Most of them were within 12 feet. I will try to extract the average distance later.

[feyki]

Overall or on skyhook attempts?

Overall, Kareem averaged 30.9 ppg on 60.1 TS% and 56.5 FG% in 27 games without ones against the Lakers.

His skyhook efficiency was at 56 FG% without these 5 games vs Wilt.

Are these hooks from mid-range? I mean 8-16ft?

Most of them were within 12 feet. I will try to extract the average distance later.

Actually wanted to know the shots not taken at the rim. Thanks, btw, sorry for too many questions .

[penbeast0]

Well he shot 56% for his career and a career high of 60%, I have trouble believing his hook shots were only made at a 50% rate.

He used to hook in the half court but he also ran the floor pretty well for a big, got a lot of putbacks and dunks, and had countermoves (including the lefty hoot) and drop steps if they tried to overplay him. Those were higher percentage shots and frequently shook his man altogether for higher percentages though set up by the skyhook. I spent my high school years trying to imitate his game.

Kareem did not skyhook offensive rebounds or loose balls or interior passes to him through traffic. The skyhook was not a quick shot for taking advantage of a momentariliy broken defense.

He was was accurate with that skyhook.

Either I'm not understanding your post or you aren't understanding mine. The original quote asked how he could make only 50% of his skyhooks when he had a 56% fg%. My response was that other shots in his repetoire may have been higher percentage either because he had an open floor, a putback, or they were overplaying the skyhook leaving them open to a counter. Thus the skyhook may not have been as efficient as the average shot he took. However, in a half court situation on the block with a set defense or one that isn't overplaying, it may still have been the great go-to shot at 50% when the easier shots aren't there. I don't think we are actually disagreeing here.

[toodles23]

I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

Here's footage of every skyhook Kareem took during the 1983 playoffs, he shot 51.4% (166 of 323) on them which is very close to your numbers. To answer the OP's question, yes, his skyhook would still be very valuable today - a 52% shot in the halfcourt is still very good offense, and Kareem could get it off over anybody in the league. Entry passes can be a bottleneck for post offense, but Kareem was really easy to throw them to given his size/length and mobility.

Watch on YouTube

[SkyHookFTW]

The one vulnerability of this shot is at the beginning. Defenses are different today, defenders more athletic. A quick, long-armed excellent defender like Thybulle, in good position, disrupts that shot before it's launched. Very few defenders can face up and stop that shot once it is off (maybe Giannis, Gobert, or Embiid can pull off a block once in a blue moon), but smaller defenders giving help would be the bane of the skyhook--stop the shot before it's launched. Kareem was very fluid and natural with his set up and release. He must have practiced this shot 30,000 times. In one of his books Kareem talked about the origin of this shot, which goes back to 5th grade. A man named George Hejduk helped his youth coach, working on his release and footwork (using George Mikan as an example) to get the fundamentals down. He had four years of college to use it against top-level college talent, and John Wooden, though initially distrustful of the shot, saw him make so many of them that he just gave Kareem the green light to shoot them as he pleased.

How many young players today at any level would put in the work to perfect this type of shot? How many coaches would be patient enough to allow a player to develop this shot?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

The one vulnerability of this shot is at the beginning. Defenses are different today, defenders more athletic. A quick, long-armed excellent defender like Thybulle, in good position, disrupts that shot before it's launched. Very few defenders can face up and stop that shot once it is off (maybe Giannis, Gobert, or Embiid can pull off a block once in a blue moon), but smaller defenders giving help would be the bane of the skyhook--stop the shot before it's launched. Kareem was very fluid and natural with his set up and release. He must have practiced this shot 30,000 times. In one of his books Kareem talked about the origin of this shot, which goes back to 5th grade. A man named George Hejduk helped his youth coach, working on his release and footwork (using George Mikan as an example) to get the fundamentals down. He had four years of college to use it against top-level college talent, and John Wooden, though initially distrustful of the shot, saw him make so many of them that he just gave Kareem the green light to shoot them as he pleased.

How many young players today at any level would put in the work to perfect this type of shot? How many coaches would be patient enough to allow a player to develop this shot?

Kareem could pass. If you double Kareem's skyhook the help defender should approach from behind Kareem's back because Kareem will pass if he sees the help defender. Also the Skyhooks uses Kareem's body to sheild the shot release from the primary defender so the help defender is best when unseen coming from back and to the left of Kareem and going to back and to the right shooting hand of Kareem.

There are less help defenders arround the paint now because of 3 point shooting. Players have gotten marginally faster and bigger but their distance from the paint has gotten further because of 3 point shooting more than players have gotten bigger and faster. If you want Thybulle to block the shot as a help defender coming from behind and attacking the skyhook release point you need to make sure that Thybulle's man is not a 3 point shooter.

Now if the guy shooting the skyhook unlike Kareem, has horrible court vision it makes giving help defense off of a 3 point shooter less dangerous. I love the 1982 Lakers because I love the way Norm Nixon and Magic played together. On the 1982 Lakers nobody was going to shoot a 3 but Kareem if doubled could find the open man cutting to the basket. If the guy guarding Nixon attacked the the Skyhook release point and Kareem passes to Nixon cutting to the hoop you still have the guy guarding Rambis available to rotate over to Nixon.

In today's game Rambis would be out at the 3 point line setting screens for 3 point shooters and Rambis's defender would have to go out to the 3 point line to switch onto the 3 point shooter and that would leave Nixson open cutting to the basket. To make this scenario happen I have to give Magic Cooper and Wilkes the ability to shoot catch and shoot 3s while coming off screens. On the 1982 Lakers they could not shoot 3s. On the 1987 Lakers Magic and Cooper were hitting stand still wide open 3s but they were not shooting catch and shoot 3s while coming off screens. Wilkes had the best shooting stroke but he got injured and retired before NBA players understood the value of stretching the floor with 3 point shooting. The whole 1982 Laker team was great at slicing to the basket and catching and finishing interior passes.

I saw guards successfully sneak up to Kareem's shoot hand from behind Kareems back plenty of times but despite Thybulle's abilities Thybulle would have less opportunity to go after Kareem's Skyhook in the modern game than lesser defendes had in Kareem's time.

Give the 1982 Lakers players a modern 3 point shooting game and time travel that improved 1982 Laker team to the current time and they would beat any modern team including the 2017 Warriors.

This imaginary team makes me drool just thinking about them. Best of 1982 Lakers and best of 2016 and 2017 Warriors.
Kareem-Bogut-Javale
Mcadoo-Barnes-Durant
Magic-Draymond-Draymond
Rambis-Speights-David West
Wilkes-Klay-Klay
Cooper-Iguodala-Iguodala
Fast Eddie Jordan- Barbosa-Ian Clark
Nixon-Curry-Curry
Because I have turned Magic into a point power forward I add a 2nd Cooper to the team
Cooper-Livingston-Livingston

That would be a team that would beat any team and play the most beautiful ball ever played.

[70sFan]

Are these hooks from mid-range? I mean 8-16ft?

Most of them were within 12 feet. I will try to extract the average distance later.

Actually wanted to know the shots not taken at the rim. Thanks, btw, sorry for too many questions .

Average skyhook attempt from my sample came from 9 feet.

34% of skyhook attempts came from 10+feet and Kareem made them at 44.4% rate.

[SkyHookFTW]

The one vulnerability of this shot is at the beginning. Defenses are different today, defenders more athletic. A quick, long-armed excellent defender like Thybulle, in good position, disrupts that shot before it's launched. Very few defenders can face up and stop that shot once it is off (maybe Giannis, Gobert, or Embiid can pull off a block once in a blue moon), but smaller defenders giving help would be the bane of the skyhook--stop the shot before it's launched. Kareem was very fluid and natural with his set up and release. He must have practiced this shot 30,000 times. In one of his books Kareem talked about the origin of this shot, which goes back to 5th grade. A man named George Hejduk helped his youth coach, working on his release and footwork (using George Mikan as an example) to get the fundamentals down. He had four years of college to use it against top-level college talent, and John Wooden, though initially distrustful of the shot, saw him make so many of them that he just gave Kareem the green light to shoot them as he pleased.

How many young players today at any level would put in the work to perfect this type of shot? How many coaches would be patient enough to allow a player to develop this shot?

Kareem could pass. If you double Kareem's skyhook the help defender should approach from behind Kareem's back because Kareem will pass if he sees the help defender. Also the Skyhooks uses Kareem's body to sheild the shot release from the primary defender so the help defender is best when unseen coming from back and to the left of Kareem and going to back and to the right shooting hand of Kareem.

There are less help defenders arround the paint now because of 3 point shooting. Players have gotten marginally faster and bigger but their distance from the paint has gotten further because of 3 point shooting more than players have gotten bigger and faster. If you want Thybulle to block the shot as a help defender coming from behind and attacking the skyhook release point you need to make sure that Thybulle's man is not a 3 point shooter.

Now if the guy shooting the skyhook unlike Kareem, has horrible court vision it makes giving help defense off of a 3 point shooter less dangerous. I love the 1982 Lakers because I love the way Norm Nixon and Magic played together. On the 1982 Lakers nobody was going to shoot a 3 but Kareem if doubled could find the open man cutting to the basket. If the guy guarding Nixon attacked the the Skyhook release point and Kareem passes to Nixon cutting to the hoop you still have the guy guarding Rambis available to rotate over to Nixon.

In today's game Rambis would be out at the 3 point line setting screens for 3 point shooters and Rambis's defender would have to go out to the 3 point line to switch onto the 3 point shooter and that would leave Nixson open cutting to the basket. To make this scenario happen I have to give Magic Cooper and Wilkes the ability to shoot catch and shoot 3s while coming off screens. On the 1982 Lakers they could not shoot 3s. On the 1987 Lakers Magic and Cooper were hitting stand still wide open 3s but they were not shooting catch and shoot 3s while coming off screens. Wilkes had the best shooting stroke but he got injured and retired before NBA players understood the value of stretching the floor with 3 point shooting. The whole 1982 Laker team was great at slicing to the basket and catching and finishing interior passes.

I saw guards successfully sneak up to Kareem's shoot hand from behind Kareems back plenty of times but despite Thybulle's abilities Thybulle would have less opportunity to go after Kareem's Skyhook in the modern game than lesser defendes had in Kareem's time.

Give the 1982 Lakers players a modern 3 point shooting game and time travel that improved 1982 Laker team to the current time and they would beat any modern team including the 2017 Warriors.

This imaginary team makes me drool just thinking about them. Best of 1982 Lakers and best of 2016 and 2017 Warriors.
Kareem-Bogut-Javale
Mcadoo-Barnes-Durant
Magic-Draymond-Draymond
Rambis-Speights-David West
Wilkes-Klay-Klay
Cooper-Iguodala-Iguodala
Fast Eddie Jordan- Barbosa-Ian Clark
Nixon-Curry-Curry
Because I have turned Magic into a point power forward I add a 2nd Cooper to the team
Cooper-Livingston-Livingston

That would be a team that would beat any team and play the most beautiful ball ever played.

That 1982 team was destroyed by the 1983 Sixers, so I'd have to say that the 1983 Sixers with 3pt shooting would beat any team and be the most beautiful ball ever played.

[feyki]

Most of them were within 12 feet. I will try to extract the average distance later.

Actually wanted to know the shots not taken at the rim. Thanks, btw, sorry for too many questions .

Average skyhook attempt from my sample came from 9 feet.

34% of skyhook attempts came from 10+feet and Kareem made them at 44.4% rate.

Average Kobe/Jordan prime year between the %45 and %50 from the mid-range. Almost the same efficiency when mind the average shooting efficiency.

That's why Kareem is the GOAT on TSAdd with Wilt, despite Wilt's prime had ten points higher a game than KAJ. KAJ had GOAT level finishing, Kobe/Jordan level mid-range and a very good ft shooter as a center, definitely the most unique scoring efficiency player in the NBA history.

[I beg to differ]

I tracked 33 1971-79 Kareem games and here are the skyhook stats from this sample:

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55,4 TS%

Some observations:

- almost 95% of Kareem skyhook attempts were right handed, but he was highly efficient with his left hand (finishing them at ridiculous 73% rate),
- my sampled games underrate Kareem's efficiency compared to his RS averages (53.7 FG% and 57.1 TS% compared to 55.5 FG% and 58.6 TS%)
- 5 out of 33 games I tracked were against Wilt Chamberlain who did a great job at shutting down skyhooks (Kareem made only 29% of his skyhooks against Wilt in my sample),
- Kareem became more reliant on skyhook during his Lakers career, but his hookshot also became more efficient. In 20 Lakers games I tracked, Jabbar made skyhooks on 56.7 FG% rate.

Any questions?

Thank you for this
I've been looking for data on Kareem's skyhook for years.

[rk2023]

Wow, surprised that this resurfaced again.

Some cool data as extension, courtesy of 70sfan again

The playoff run lasted 12 games and I've been fortunate to get footage from 8 of them. Two of them were highly incomplete (from WCSF game 7 is only 20 minutes long, game 3 has only half of the game), but other games are farily complete. I made a shotchart from these games, along with shooting data:

Spoiler:

0-3 feet: 82.8% efficiency, 20% of shots taken (24/29)
3-10 feet: 62.0% efficiency, 54.5% of shots taken (49/79)
10+ feet: 48.6% efficiency, 25.5% of shots taken (18/37)

I know that the sample of size isn't huge (only 145 shots in total), but it's just nothing short of incredible. Kareem in that run was just absurd from all spots of the floor, he could make any shot he wanted. Even with bigger sample including different seasons, Kareem's efficiency and volume from in-between area (3-10) made his extremely unique scorer. You just couldn't do anything to stop him from scoring effectively from that range. He didn't take a lot of long range shots, but that wasn't his game - Lakers tried to create spacing for him to work in the paint (which usually didn't work, because Lakers didn't have many good shooters).

His skyhook efficiency was also absurd in sampled games. He made 35/56 attempts in sampled games, which given linear adjustment leads us to 62% on over 8 attempts per game.

Again, note that all these numbers were created against very strong defensive competition - he was guarded by the combination of Ray/Parish and swarming Warriors defense in 5 of these 7 games, while he had to deal with peak Bill Walton in another 3.

Assuming there are no turnovers progressing into one (which I doubt), the tracked sykhook sample would yield an efficiency of 1.25 PPP or a 125 ORTG. For context, pictured below are some of the most effective half-court plays in the heart of the tracking era. I am aware that this is a smaller sample over 7 games, and am curious how the skyhook would be over a given year (especially 1977, which was the peak of Kareem's powers imo). Either way, it's crazy that such a measure would be second on this entire list (albeit with a much smaller volume) for a play that is more specific than the classifications Synergy uses for various sets. I don't see how it wouldn't be effective in todays' game.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Cavsfansince84]

Here's footage of every skyhook Kareem took during the 1983 playoffs, he shot 51.4% (166 of 323) on them which is very close to your numbers. To answer the OP's question, yes, his skyhook would still be very valuable today - a 52% shot in the halfcourt is still very good offense, and Kareem could get it off over anybody in the league. Entry passes can be a bottleneck for post offense, but Kareem was really easy to throw them to given his size/length and mobility.

Also have to factor in ft's + and 1's which come from it imo to get a full picture of its efficiency.

[homecourtloss]

Wow, surprised that this resurfaced again.

Some cool data as extension, courtesy of 70sfan again

The playoff run lasted 12 games and I've been fortunate to get footage from 8 of them. Two of them were highly incomplete (from WCSF game 7 is only 20 minutes long, game 3 has only half of the game), but other games are farily complete. I made a shotchart from these games, along with shooting data:

Spoiler:

0-3 feet: 82.8% efficiency, 20% of shots taken (24/29)
3-10 feet: 62.0% efficiency, 54.5% of shots taken (49/79)
10+ feet: 48.6% efficiency, 25.5% of shots taken (18/37)

I know that the sample of size isn't huge (only 145 shots in total), but it's just nothing short of incredible. Kareem in that run was just absurd from all spots of the floor, he could make any shot he wanted. Even with bigger sample including different seasons, Kareem's efficiency and volume from in-between area (3-10) made his extremely unique scorer. You just couldn't do anything to stop him from scoring effectively from that range. He didn't take a lot of long range shots, but that wasn't his game - Lakers tried to create spacing for him to work in the paint (which usually didn't work, because Lakers didn't have many good shooters).

His skyhook efficiency was also absurd in sampled games. He made 35/56 attempts in sampled games, which given linear adjustment leads us to 62% on over 8 attempts per game.

Again, note that all these numbers were created against very strong defensive competition - he was guarded by the combination of Ray/Parish and swarming Warriors defense in 5 of these 7 games, while he had to deal with peak Bill Walton in another 3.

Assuming there are no turnovers progressing into one (which I doubt), the tracked sykhook sample would yield an efficiency of 1.25 PPP or a 125 ORTG. For context, pictured below are some of the most effective half-court plays in the heart of the tracking era. I am aware that this is a smaller sample over 7 games, and am curious how the skyhook would be over a given year (especially 1977, which was the peak of Kareem's powers imo). Either way, it's crazy that such a measure would be second on this entire list (albeit with a much smaller volume) for a play that is more specific than the classifications Synergy uses for various sets. I don't see how it wouldn't be effective in todays' game.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

I was in the middle of writing out a post detailing this and you beat me to it

Also tangentially, and I have mentioned this before, but Harden’s 2018 ISO PPP is one of the greatest offensive achievements you’ll ever see. Most of the players in the NBA taking spot up shots can’t get to 1.22 points per possession let alone in ISO.

[rk2023]

Wow, surprised that this resurfaced again.

Some cool data as extension, courtesy of 70sfan again

The playoff run lasted 12 games and I've been fortunate to get footage from 8 of them. Two of them were highly incomplete (from WCSF game 7 is only 20 minutes long, game 3 has only half of the game), but other games are farily complete. I made a shotchart from these games, along with shooting data:

Spoiler:

0-3 feet: 82.8% efficiency, 20% of shots taken (24/29)
3-10 feet: 62.0% efficiency, 54.5% of shots taken (49/79)
10+ feet: 48.6% efficiency, 25.5% of shots taken (18/37)

I know that the sample of size isn't huge (only 145 shots in total), but it's just nothing short of incredible. Kareem in that run was just absurd from all spots of the floor, he could make any shot he wanted. Even with bigger sample including different seasons, Kareem's efficiency and volume from in-between area (3-10) made his extremely unique scorer. You just couldn't do anything to stop him from scoring effectively from that range. He didn't take a lot of long range shots, but that wasn't his game - Lakers tried to create spacing for him to work in the paint (which usually didn't work, because Lakers didn't have many good shooters).

His skyhook efficiency was also absurd in sampled games. He made 35/56 attempts in sampled games, which given linear adjustment leads us to 62% on over 8 attempts per game.

Again, note that all these numbers were created against very strong defensive competition - he was guarded by the combination of Ray/Parish and swarming Warriors defense in 5 of these 7 games, while he had to deal with peak Bill Walton in another 3.

Assuming there are no turnovers progressing into one (which I doubt), the tracked sykhook sample would yield an efficiency of 1.25 PPP or a 125 ORTG. For context, pictured below are some of the most effective half-court plays in the heart of the tracking era. I am aware that this is a smaller sample over 7 games, and am curious how the skyhook would be over a given year (especially 1977, which was the peak of Kareem's powers imo). Either way, it's crazy that such a measure would be second on this entire list (albeit with a much smaller volume) for a play that is more specific than the classifications Synergy uses for various sets. I don't see how it wouldn't be effective in todays' game.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

I was in the middle of writing out a post detailing this and you beat me to it

Also tangentially, and I have mentioned this before, but Harden’s 2018 ISO PPP is one of the greatest offensive achievements you’ll ever see. Most of the players in the NBA taking spot up shots can’t get to 1.22 points per possession let alone in ISO.

As much as I don't quite like the heliocentric style to *that* extent and the foul-hunting, I regret taking Harden's prime for granted. There's some aspects of offensive brilliance we won't see again. He's also fared well in multiple roles. It's unfortunate he's hurt often and on the decline nowadays.

[tsherkin]

. Entry passes can be a bottleneck for post offense, but Kareem was really easy to throw them to given his size/length and mobility.

He also moved well without the ball with post cuts, and was pretty good with post/repost. And yeah, ran hard in transition. It would be fairly difficult to stop a young Kareem in today's game.

[thekdog34]

1971-79 Kareem (33 games):

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55.4 TS%

1993-94 Hakeem (35 games):

3.9 ppg, 3.2 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 50.5 FG% and 54.8 TS%

2000-01 Shaq (33 games):

5.5 ppg, 5.0 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 48.0% and 48.4 TS%

1979-83 Moses (38 games):

0.9 ppg, 0.9 FGA, 0.2 FTA on 41.9 FG% and 48.7 TS%

Kareem's volume and efficiency is unmatched by any of these three. Moses rarely used jumphook, he preferred using fadeaways and powerful drop steps instead.

You got these from watching game? I'm not surprised Hakeem is pretty efficient too but thought he shot more. And didn't know Shaq shot so many

[70sFan]

1971-79 Kareem (33 games):

10.7 ppg, 8.8 FGA, 1.9 FTA on 52.9 FG% and 55.4 TS%

1993-94 Hakeem (35 games):

3.9 ppg, 3.2 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 50.5 FG% and 54.8 TS%

2000-01 Shaq (33 games):

5.5 ppg, 5.0 FGA, 0.9 FTA on 48.0% and 48.4 TS%

1979-83 Moses (38 games):

0.9 ppg, 0.9 FGA, 0.2 FTA on 41.9 FG% and 48.7 TS%

Kareem's volume and efficiency is unmatched by any of these three. Moses rarely used jumphook, he preferred using fadeaways and powerful drop steps instead.

You got these from watching game? I'm not surprised Hakeem is pretty efficient too but thought he shot more. And didn't know Shaq shot so many

Yes, from watching a lot of games. It's very time consuming, I still haven't finished this project...

[One_and_Done]

I mean, I have Kareem 3-4 all time, but there's really no disputing his skyhook would be much less potent today.

[70sFan]

I mean, I have Kareem 3-4 all time, but there's really no disputing his skyhook would be much less potent today.

Why is that?

[NO-KG-AI]

I mean, I have Kareem 3-4 all time, but there's really no disputing his skyhook would be much less potent today.

Why? The dude shot 55% or higher, and close to 60% a bunch for like 14 seasons on high volume. The guy who kept being a runner up MVP finally got one because he ALMOST hit 55% for the first time in his life.

There is nothing efficiency wise or how the game is played now that should or would sway Kareem from how his game was played.