How do you rank these 6 point guards all time? Kidd, Stockton, Paul, Nash,Isiah and Payton?

[SpreeS]

I dont like Stockton ranking at all. For me he more all time role player than all time great. He isn’t who could bring team on his shoulders on the TOP.

[penbeast0]

Could you clarify meaning on underlined? Didn't take plays off? ...

When I watched Thomas, he always seemed to be an aggressive defender who didn't rest on that end like many scorers do. I'd say all these players, other than Nash, are plus defenders just from eye test though I'd rank them Kidd, Payton, Stockton, Paul, Thomas.

[Owly]

Could you clarify meaning on underlined? Didn't take plays off? ...

When I watched Thomas, he always seemed to be an aggressive defender who didn't rest on that end like many scorers do. I'd say all these players, other than Nash, are plus defenders just from eye test though I'd rank them Kidd, Payton, Stockton, Paul, Thomas.

Thanks for clarifying (the "off" was missing so wanted to make sure I was reading you correctly, rather than disbelief, though I will state my disagreement since I've established this is your position).

I would say my mental aggregation has Thomas as decent, above average but unexceptional defender in the Bad Boy core years, weaker later and earlier (with some fuzziness about when he improves]. What I read concurs with aggressive, but even around his defensive apex the consistency aspect is not something noted. This reading may be worse if his gambling is though of as a low effort option.

Barry after '89 (doing most pertinent quotes to effort initially, full section where they become shorter, so some aspects e.g. re active hands may be missed if one were looking for a full review of his D)

is not a shut-you down defender but he's a dangerous one; as with his offense he has explosive spurts on D - steals deflections, forcing turnovers, which can turn a game
...
he's not consistent getting through screens
[grade: A]

after '90 already more assertively stating the negative on inconsistency

Defensively, noted one coach, Thomas can be as good as he wants to be." If he doesn't do it every night - he gets bored on occasion - he does it when he so desires, and can be a dangerous defender ...

But he's vulnerable off the dribble and gambles a lot.
[grade: B]

after '91 is very similar "as good as he wants to be" "gets bored on occasion" "when he desires" "vulnerable off the dribble and gambles a lot" repeated as was the grade

after '92 (it gets worse)

Can shut you down when he has to do, but otherwise plays "D" on cruise control ... Some say his defense is slipping .... Detroits inability to contain opposition ones was evident last season ... Has quick hands and fast feet resulting in a team high 118 steals
{grade: B-]

after '93

Close to a matador ... Even now and then he'll play D ... Quick hands leading to 1.6 steals per.
[B]

Through to the review after '83, the Hollander books highlight the Detroit backcourt (typically naming Thomas and Long) as a point of (defensive) weakness and Bob Ryan names him to an All-Sieve team after '83.

Based mainly on the above I'm inclined to think that there could be intensity but also plays (and even games) off.


Fwiw in a more general assessment of his D Trex's WoWY suggested their defense suffered in his absence in '91 (but noisy measure, no controls iirc, other causes e.g. playing Dumars more and out of primary position on both ends, may be factors).

Still the others noted have more substantial data suggesting very strong to elite pg defense (Payton's picture muddied by post 2000 dropoff, but iirc even before then I think it has been suggested defense has been overrated) as well as fwiw, better defensive reps so I'm inclined to put him away from that top group on that end.

[ronnymac2]

1. Kidd - Highly underrated on RealGM. One of the great perimeter defenders in history with GOAT-level passing/court awareness. Extremely valuable player for a LOT of seasons.

2. Nash - Maybe the most skilled player ever when it comes to shooting/passing/dribbling. Very good on-court leader as well.

3. Payton - Lock-down defender, mean-spirited, will cook you in the post and let you know. Great two-way player. Averaged 24/9 in the middle of the deadball-era of the NBA.

4. CP3 - Paul is as mean-spirited to his own teammates as Payton is to opponents. The majority of his career, he's been a poor leader imo and has tried to be hard on players who he hasn't accomplished meaningfully more than. Still, great player, efficient, amazing TOV economy, and dogged defender.

5. Thomas - Extremely underrated peak/prime on RealGM. People don't always look at how amazing his postseason play was prior to the BAD BOYS moniker and the titles that came with that moniker. Still, terrible longevity.

6. Stockton - Great player, but overrated. Anybody who compares Stockton to Nash stylistically or otherwise doesn't pass the litmus test of knowing how to evaluate basketball players. Broad strokes statement but I'm generally right.

[SickMother]

I dont like Stockton ranking at all. For me he more all time role player than all time great. He isn’t who could bring team on his shoulders on the TOP.

None of these guys brought their team to the top on their shoulders. The one who came the closest to doing so & who has the lone Finals MVP on the ballot, Isiah, is generally ranked the lowest of the grouping.

For me personally I've got Paul/Stockton 5th/6th on my all time PG list, a tier above the the other four at 9th through 12th...

(p) = 5 year peak for Win Shares & single season peak for TS+ (c) = career

05 Paul (pWS: 69.9 | pWS/48: .263 | cWS: 198.9 | cWS/48: .239 |pTS+: 112 | cTS+: 107)
06 Stockton (pWS: 71.6 | pWS/48: .229 | cWS: 207.7 | cWS/48: .209 | pTS+: 122 | cTS+: 114)

09 Nash (pWS: 56.2 | pWS/48: .202 | cWS: 129.7 | cWS/48: .164 | pTS+: 121 | cTS+: 114)
10 Payton (pWS: 55.8 | pWS/48: .184 | cWS: 145.5 | cWS/48: .148 | pTS+: 104 | cTS+: 100)
11 Kidd (pWS: 45.2 | pWS/48: .157 | cWS: 138.6 | cWS/48: .133 | pTS+: 106 | cTS+: 96)
12 Isiah (pWS: 44.1 | pWS/48: .143 | cWS: 80.7 | cWS/48: .109 | pTS+: 103 | cTS+: 96)

[Johnny Tomala]

1 - Stockton
2 - Thomas
3 - Paul
4 - Kidd
5 - Nash
6 - Payton

[RCM88x]

Paul
Nash

Stockton
Kidd
Thomas

Payton

[Purch]

I dont like Stockton ranking at all. For me he more all time role player than all time great. He isn’t who could bring team on his shoulders on the TOP.

I've never seen a great shooter, leading the league in assist who was also a great defender, be described as a role player.

If you're asking if you want him to be your main option, I agree with your general point.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I'm not prepared to make the case, but man, I think Payton tends to be a bit underrated around here. He is consistently rated as definitively worse than Kidd and Stockton in most lists and opinions. I neither remember it that way nor believe that team success, stats, or accolades lift those two into a higher tier than Payton.

He was the engine of consistently elite or near-elite offenses throughout his prime. While his defensive mystique may have gotten a little out of hand, his peak was very, very good there, too. I genuinely don't think he suffers by comparison with Kidd or Stockton at either end, prime vs. prime. Even his longevity falls only a little bit short, really: it doesn't explain everything, but note that all three are top 15 all-time in combined regular season and playoff minutes.

It's not outrageous to me to have him third of these three (although I'd have a hard time giving Stockton the nod, tbh). I'm just not convinced he doesn't belong in that same tier of great point guards. Is it the playoff disappointments that stuck in people's minds? The disastrous Lakers stint?

[ceoofkobefans]

Gaps represent tiers (range all time)

CP3 (14-20)

Nash (21-23)

Stockton (24-28)

Kidd (30-33)

Zeke/GP (45-52)

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not prepared to make the case, but man, I think Payton tends to be a bit underrated around here. He is consistently rated as definitively worse than Kidd and Stockton in most lists and opinions. I neither remember it that way nor believe that team success, stats, or accolades lift those two into a higher tier than Payton.

He was the engine of consistently elite or near-elite offenses throughout his prime. While his defensive mystique may have gotten a little out of hand, his peak was very, very good there, too. I genuinely don't think he suffers by comparison with Kidd or Stockton at either end, prime vs. prime. Even his longevity falls only a little bit short, really: it doesn't explain everything, but note that all three are top 15 all-time in combined regular season and playoff minutes.

It's not outrageous to me to have him third of these three (although I'd have a hard time giving Stockton the nod, tbh). I'm just not convinced he doesn't belong in that same tier of great point guards. Is it the playoff disappointments that stuck in people's minds? The disastrous Lakers stint?

He was definitely rated lower than Stockton. i'm not sure what you mean by "how you remember it" as their primes didn't happen at the same time.

[trex_8063]

I assume you mean Isiah Thomas, and not Isaiah Thomas as written [entirely different player].

Meaningful longevity (sort of a CORP-principle criteria) matters significantly to me. Narrative-based arguments largely do NOT matter to me. I value defense (even in PG's), too; same as I would value offense in centers. Playoffs matter.....but so does the rs, imo. The whole point of player comparisons and all-time rankings [imho] is to rank/rate players versus their professional peers.......ALL of their professional peers, not just the handful they happen to face in the playoffs (sample size frequently becomes an issue if overly focused on playoffs only, too).

All of that said, I rank them:

Chris Paul
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Isiah Thomas

[Lou Fan]

I'm gonna buck the trend here and go Nash at 1 as a guy who values peak/prime more than longevity. Nash's ridiculous offensive results put him on top here. I also have less questions about his playoff health/performance. Payton over Kidd because I think his weaknesses are easier to build around and I like his offense more. I have them 38 and 39 on my list so super close.

1. Nash
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Payton
5. Kidd
6. IT

[lessthanjake]

I think Nash is actually really hard to rank.

There’s a lot of statistical evidence that Nash was one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the NBA. Indeed, his teams had the highest offensive efficiency in the league something like 9 years in a row. That’s on different teams, with different teammates, and different coaches—so it was a pretty natural experiment. One could say that that’s partly because he played on offensively-minded rosters, and that’d be true to some degree, but no one has come close to that kind of streak, despite many great players playing with even better offensive players than Nash did. It’s super impressive and would indicate a player who should be ranked ahead of all the players listed in this thread.

That said, I think there’s perhaps an argument that that was a result of a perfect storm of being at the forefront of strategic shifts in the game. In the era that was Nash’s prime, teams absolutely were playing woefully suboptimal offensive styles. They should’ve been shooting way more threes, and people just didn’t know it. In a lot of those years, Nash’s teams pushed the boundaries on this, shooting more threes than other teams. So there’s an argument that his teams’ unprecedented offensive efficiency was more about being at the cutting edge of the move to optimize the game strategically, rather than being about he himself being so good. In other words, maybe he wouldn’t be having consistently elite offenses if he played in today’s NBA where there’s more of a strategic equilibrium and he wouldn’t have a strategy advantage over every other team.

All that said, Nash’s streak included a year with Shaq, where the Suns really didn’t play a fast pace or shoot many threes. So I tend to think the better explanation is that he just was an absolutely elite playmaker.

With that said, here’s my ranking:

1. Steve Nash - See above. There’s an argument for ranking him lower (see above), but I don’t think I can take any of these other guys over someone who basically guaranteed the #1 offense in the league in his prime. Also the only one on here to win an MVP award (and he won it twice).

2. Chris Paul - He’s just a statistically superior player to the others on this list, in terms of efficiency. The low number of turnovers is freakish. The big knock on him on all-time lists is lack of playoff success, but no one on this list won a title except Isiah.

3. Isiah Thomas - I’d rank him last or second to last without the titles. He was a woefully inefficient shooter, but I can’t ignore that he got two titles (and almost another one) as the best player on his team, and therefore had much more success than anyone else on this list.

4. John Stockton - An amazing passer and efficient scorer, who was actually a good defender as well. While he doesn’t have a title, his two finals appearances are as many or more than anyone on this list but Isiah, and he had to face MJ.

5. Gary Payton - I don’t really have any knock on him, except that there’s just things about the other guys that I like more. Great player, particularly on defense, but I just didn’t consider him to be quite the same level of player as I considered the ones above him.

6. Jason Kidd - Horrible shooter until he was a role player later. I just think it’s really hard to win a title with a PG whose shooting the other team doesn’t have to respect at all and who still often averages below a 50% TS%. I know he was a great passer, rebounder, and defender, but the awful shooting leaves him last on this list for me.

I’ll note, however, that this is a good list of comparable players, and I tend to think that any of them could be put 1st or last and it could be justified.

[Pharmacist]

1. Isiah Thomas

2. John Stockton

3. Gary Payton

4. Jason Kidd

5. Chris Paul

6. Steve Nash

[Purch]

Paul
Nash

Stockton
Kidd
Thomas

Payton

I didn't realize how low people have gotten on Payton until recently. I wonder what has caused the shift

[penbeast0]

I didn't realize how low people have gotten on Payton until recently. I wonder what has caused the shift

I think he's slipped ever since we started using advanced statistics. First, his offensive efficiency didn't look particularly good, (same for Thomas and Kidd of course). Then, his vaulted defensive impact doesn't seem to translate into the impact stat family with Nate McMillan consistently higher on his own team.

[Jaivl]

Paul
Nash
Stockton
Kidd
Thomas
Payton

I can see different orders with different criteria or different analysis, but for me they're pretty much set in stone. Westbrook and Frazier make for a much more interesting discussion than Payton, IMO.

[Purch]

Paul
Nash
Stockton
Kidd
Thomas
Payton

I can see different orders with different criteria or different analysis, but for me they're pretty much set in stone. Westbrook and Frazier make for a much more interesting discussion than Payton, IMO.

I don't think I've ever considered where Westbrook ranks as far as top poiny guards. Definitely something I need to look into

[TT8198]

1. Chris Paul: No weakness as a point guard. The total package. Defends, ultimate leader and playmaker, offensively gifted.

2. Isaiah Thomas: You guys are seriously underrating Isaiah Thomas won two titles as the unquestioned best player on his team as a true point without being 6'9 in the 80's. Don't over think this. No one else on this list can say that.

3. Steve Nash: I'm not as high on a Steve Nash as most. Had the most Insane peak out of anyone on this list enough for me to me put him third. Still a defensive liability and don't see him thriving on just any team needs the system built around him to get the most out of him. Still a really good player though.

4. Jason Kidd: This one might raise eye brows if my list hasn't already. But quite honestly if I had to draft Stockton, Nash, or Kidd I'd take Kidd over all of them. He's the best all around player out of all of them and can do more with less. Not to mention being bigger and the best defender of the bunch. 2nd all time in steals & assist. Great scalability, could play on any team.

5. John Stockton: Again not as high on Stockton as most. Really good player on both sides of the ball with INSANE longevity. Number one in assist & steals. Stockton and Malone are all time players who are good individually but all time greats as a tandem and probably wouldn't be without each other and there's no way of distinguishing that.

6. Gary Payton: Everyone on this list is a great player, Payton being last is no knock when he's listed with the guys above. Great on both sides of the ball and great floor general the other guys are just better.

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app