When would you generally say LeBron surpassed MJ all-time?

[70sFan]

A lot of people still have Jordan ahead of James, so I the thread shouldn't be named in such straightforward way...

I thought that he surpassed Jordan around 2018 and definitely after 2020. After later evaulation, I can see his case in 2017 or maybe even 2016 already. Still, some people may prefer Jordan and that's fine.

[Matt15]

I disagree with the premise…

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron

[ShaqAttac]

i probs would have said never before realgm but now i think maybe pretty early. has much bigger "impact" or whatever so maybe 2013 or 2016

[ShaqAttac]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

[ShaqAttac]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

[Gregoire]

Lebron didnt surpass Jordan yet.

[McBubbles]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

Let's not turn this into a LeBron Stan Forum / Thread. Believing Jordan is the GOAT isn't some sort of extreme casual fan take.

[1993Playoffs]

Around 2017-2018

[OhayoKD]

Eh...even on RealGM its hardly uncontested. Didn't jordan win all the goat votes until the 2020 top 100? Looking at the thread there was a fair bit of mj votes

[OhayoKD]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

Let's not turn this into a LeBron Stan Forum / Thread. Believing Jordan is the GOAT isn't some sort of extreme casual fan take.

We also don't need to use hyperbole here. It's not "ppg" as much as its the belief that box-stuff and box-related stuff is better than focusing on winning and trying to isolate individual impact.

Strongly disagree there, but let's acknowledge what is being argued

[prolific passer]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

Let's not turn this into a LeBron Stan Forum / Thread. Believing Jordan is the GOAT isn't some sort of extreme casual fan take.

But but but. I want it to be.

[Pick And Roll]

He never did. It was never a real comparison anyway.

[magicman1978]

For me 2018, cemented him as being arguably the GOAT (Jordan, Kareem, and Russell are the other three for me). Longevity is not a big factor for me once players reach a certain threshold. If it were, then Kareem and LeBron would be top two.

[Gregoire]

I’d probably still have MJ ahead, but I think anywhere from 2016 onward is reasonable. Though obviously Lebron hasn’t had a great season since 2020. Very likely his last go as the “best in the league” level. I recall saying something like that after it happened and people looked at me like it was a stupid take.

cause he has higher ppg?

Let's not turn this into a LeBron Stan Forum / Thread. Believing Jordan is the GOAT isn't some sort of extreme casual fan take.

Lets not pretend its even close today. After recent Lebron downfalls Jordan is the GOAT for 70-75% of analytical minds (even here, where are a lot of Lebron stans) and for 80% of people, who saw both of them in their prime.

Im sure in next 100 best project here Jordan will be ahead like he was in all but 2020 edition. Mark my words.

[AEnigma]

Why would anyone ever have Jordan #1 after those Wizards seasons.

Do any of you guys actually listen to yourselves, or do you just kind-of say whatever pops into your head and immediately move on.

[oaktownwarriors87]

LeBron? The guy that was less dominant and won less?

He never passed MJ. He just hung around longer.

Jordan just had a higher level of dominance and greatness. Nothing wrong with LeBron being "just" top 10 all time.

[ty 4191]

LeBron? The guy that was less dominant and won less?

He never passed MJ. He just hung around longer.

Jordan just had a higher level of dominance and greatness. Nothing wrong with LeBron being "just" top 10 all time.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 19 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies
Grizzlies
First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against any international players, LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

Apologies to those who have seen this already, but, the contrast in depth of talent is staggering, IMO:





The NBA now features 140 international players from 40 countries on 6 different continents. Compare that with 1988-1998 and you'll see just how much better the NBA is today.

[Amares]

2018 was year I started having LBJ at nr 1. His advantage on highest level and years of dominance were already impossible to ignore.

[OhayoKD]

LeBron? The guy that was less dominant and won less?

He never passed MJ. He just hung around longer.

Jordan just had a higher level of dominance and greatness. Nothing wrong with LeBron being "just" top 10 all time.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 19 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies
Grizzlies
First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against any international players, LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

Apologies to those who have seen this already, but, the contrast in depth of talent is staggering, IMO:





The NBA now features 140 international players from 40 countries on 6 different continents. Compare that with 1988-1998 and you'll see just how much better the NBA is today.

and with all that, close to everything we have suggests that Lebron was significantly more valuable to his teams throughout his prime

[oaktownwarriors87]

LeBron? The guy that was less dominant and won less?

He never passed MJ. He just hung around longer.

Jordan just had a higher level of dominance and greatness. Nothing wrong with LeBron being "just" top 10 all time.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 19 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies
Grizzlies
First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against any international players, LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

Apologies to those who have seen this already, but, the contrast in depth of talent is staggering, IMO:





The NBA now features 140 international players from 40 countries on 6 different continents. Compare that with 1988-1998 and you'll see just how much better the NBA is today.

So your argument is that the worst team were worse in the 90's? News flash: The bottom feeder were never going to beat Jordan or LeBron. That includes the teams full of 19 and 20 year olds of today's NBA that plague the league.

Jordan, LeBron, Curry & Kobe have lost a combined TWO TIMES against a team with an SRS below 5.0 in the playoffs.

LeBron: 36-1
Kobe: 21-1
Jordan: 17-0
Curry: 16-0
Combined: 90-2

That's a 97.82% win percentage against teams with an SRS below 5.0.

How do they do against STRONG competition?

Jordan is 14-7 against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher. LeBron is 4-9.

A look at how former MVP's have done against teams that are 5.0+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Durant: 4-6 (40.00%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-9 (30.77%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-3 (33.33%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)
Rose: 0-4 (00.00%)

Jordans teams were consistently the best team in the NBA. LeBrons we're consistently top 5. There's huge difference between the two.