Where would peak Dirk rank in the league today?

[eminence]

Slow footed Markkanen obviously.

But more seriously, I can see anywhere from 1-5 depending on team context (Jokic/Curry/Giannis/Embiid the primary competition).

[bigboi]

I don’t even think dude would be top 5 tbh. Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Curry all definitively better

Think this way, Mavs are the 2nd winningest team (1137w/779l, 59.3%) in the past 23 years in the entire nba, and Dirk was the anchor for majority of that..

Don’t care. I can pull up an arbitrary bs stat for any player.

[Texas Chuck]

Anyone who refers to Dirk as a stretch 4 probably doesn't need to comment on where he fits into any league. Shows a real lack of knowledge of his actual game.

And yes the last version of Dirk we saw--when he was into his 3rd decade in the league couldn't defend anyone. But he was just fine in his prime. Not an elite defender, but not a liability either.

Stop relying on stereotypes and just acknowledge you don't actually know the player.

[Texas Chuck]

Slow footed Markkanen obviously.

Dirk wasn't slow-footed at all in his 20's. Now 40 year old Dirk couldn't stay in front of me and I move slightly slower than a glacier at this point. But he was a legit athlete.

[dygaction]

I don’t even think dude would be top 5 tbh. Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Curry all definitively better

Think this way, Mavs are the 2nd winningest team (1137w/779l, 59.3%) in the past 23 years in the entire nba, and Dirk was the anchor for majority of that..

Don’t care. I can pull up an arbitrary bs stat for any player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

[OhayoKD]

Scoring wise I don’t see how Dirk would be much worse if any than Jokic. He doesn’t have Jokic’s passing, but that’s mainly what seperates them anyhow. Simply put Dirk wouldn’t just be some run of the mill stretch big or whatever

Are you arguing dirk would be a good player or that dirk would be guaranteed top 4 in the playoffs. Because "run of the mill stretch big" is a much lower bar to clear

I don’t see much of a difference in where he’d rank overall.

Right, and your provided reasoning only really supports "he would be good", not "he would still be a top 3 player".

Just like how "dirk averaged x/y/z and stats went up" only supports "dirk would average more than x/y/z" not "he would still be a top 3 player'.

Believe what you want, but as of now, none of the reasoning offered in this thread logically leads to "Dirk would still be a top 3 player"

[No-more-rings]

Are you arguing dirk would be a good player or that dirk would be guaranteed top 4 in the playoffs. Because "run of the mill stretch big" is a much lower bar to clear

I don’t see much of a difference in where he’d rank overall.

Right, and your provided reasoning only really supports "he would be good", not "he would still be a top 3 player".

Just like how "dirk averaged x/y/z and stats went up" only supports "dirk would average more than x/y/z" not "he would still be a top 3 player'.

Believe what you want, but as of now, none of the reasoning offered in this thread logically leads to "Dirk would still be a top 3 player"

I mean what the hell evidence are you looking for?

[OhayoKD]

I don’t see much of a difference in where he’d rank overall.

Right, and your provided reasoning only really supports "he would be good", not "he would still be a top 3 player".

Just like how "dirk averaged x/y/z and stats went up" only supports "dirk would average more than x/y/z" not "he would still be a top 3 player'.

Believe what you want, but as of now, none of the reasoning offered in this thread logically leads to "Dirk would still be a top 3 player"

I mean what the hell evidence are you looking for?

Something that supports your conclusion? You've seen how I deal with era-translation plenty, and a bunch of other approaches have been taken(tsherkin and enigma did something more granular in the 97 MJ thread), but if you're not even sure how to support your conclusion, how did you even reach that conclusion in the first place?

What went into "Dirk will be as good now as he was then"

[rk2023]

#1: Dirk moved MUCH better than Jokic
I think maybe all those old Dirk years at the end made people forget the kind of athlete he was in his prime. Dirk was a legit 7ft, with a strong frame, and could really run the floor when he was younger. He was one of the better transition bigs in the league when he hit his prime. Take a look at where Dirk ranked in terms of FastBreak Points from 2000-2016.

Fast Break Scoring rank
2000: 22nd
2001: 3rd
2002: 7th
2003: 14th
2004: 19th
2005: 21st
2006: 28th
2007: 74th
2008: 46th
2009: 45th
2010: 48th
2011: 80th
2012: 87th
2013: 159th
2014: 109th
2015: 111th
2016: 140th

This where Jokic ranks in Fast Break scoring since 2017...

Fast Break Scoring rank
2017: 162nd
2018: 179th
2019: 244th
2020: 245th
2021: 186th
2022: 62nd
2023: 125th

So I think we can clearly see at least one area where Dirk had an edge, transition scoring. Jokic seems to have improved in that area over the last couple of years (losing some weight helped?), getting up to 62nd in 2022 and at 125th this year. But prior to that, he didn't finish better than 162nd in the league.

Dirk had a 7 year stretch from 2000-06 where he ranked 28th or better every single season. 4 seasons where he finished Top 20 in Fastbreak points. 3rd in '01, 7th in '02, clearly peaking as one of the very best transition players in the league those years. And still staying respectable in transition points until his body started breaking down.

#2: Dirk emphasized the mid-range much more than Jokic

Both Jokic and Dirk have excellent levels of efficiency when it comes to the mid-range, however Dirk's volume is on a completely different level making it hard to compare. Dirk ranked 34th in Mid-Range Field Goals Made in 2001, and he ranked 9th in Mid-Range FG% among the top 100 players who took the most mid-range FGAs. This is where he ranks through his prime...

2001: 34th in FGM -- 9th in FG% (among Top 100 in FGA)
2002: 18th in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2003: 11th in FGM -- 25th in FG%
2004: 3rd in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2005: 1st in FGM -- 37th in FG%
2006: 2nd in FGM -- 5th in FG%
2007: 1st in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2008: 1st in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2009: 1st in FGM -- 3rd in FG%
2010: 1st in FGM -- 9th in FG%
2011: 1st in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2012: 1st in FGM -- 8th in FG%
2013: 9th in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2014: 2nd in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2015: 2nd in FGM -- 6th in FG%
2016: 2nd in FGM -- 16th in FG%

You can see how it differs from the transition points chart for Dirk. As he got older, he simply mastered the mid-range shot and became the best in the league at it during his prime. Check out that stretch from '07 to '12, 6 straight years with the most Mid-Range FG's made while being Top 10 in FG% every year among those who qualified. Leading the year in both mid-range FGM and FG% in his 2011 championship season.

During the 13 year span from '04-'16; Dirk finished 1st in FGM 7x, 2nd in FGM 4x, 3rd in FGM 1x, and 9th another time. He finished Top 10 in FG% among those who qualified 11/13 of those years. Just an insane combination of volume and efficiency lasting over a decade. This is how Jokic compares to Dirk since 2017...

2017: 68th in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2018: 47th in FGM -- 13th in FG%
2019: 72nd in FGM -- 61st in FG%
2020: 17th in FGM -- 25th in FG%
2021: 13th in FGM -- 5th in FG%
2022: 44th in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2023: 61st in FGM -- 3rd in FG%

So as mentioned above, the volume is just not even in the same stratosphere. Jokic really does not emphasize the mid-range jumper as much as you'd think. He's only ranked in the Top 40 in FGM two times, in '20 and '21.

Jokic's efficiency these last handful of years from mid-range has crept to Dirk-levels though. Jokic has become a truly great mid-range shooter, but I just can't wrap my head around putting him on the same tier as Dirk due to the massive massive difference in volume from that range.

For example, do you guys consider Jokic to be as good of a mid-range shooter as Durant? This is where Durant ranks his past 6 full seasons

2016: 9th in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2017: 36th in FGM -- 10th in FG%
2018: 6th in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2019: 2nd in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2022: 2nd in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2023: 2nd in FGM -- 1st in FG%

See, now that looks like a guy that I can compare to Dirk in terms of Mid-Range shooting. He checks off both the volume and efficiency boxes. I know Jokic is money in the mid-range, but I would not put him on the same level as Durant or Dirk in this area.

Jokic is one of a kind with his innate touch, never seen anyone just flip the ball from 6ft into the hoop like him. He's definitely far far far better than Dirk in that short-range, he might be the best ever in that regard. But as a pure mid-range jump shooter, he's not quite Dirk or Durant.

TLDR: Dirk had a small but clear edge in shooting but a big edge in utilizing the mid-range area. He was the easy #1 mid-range scorer in the league during his prime, whereas Jokic is in the Top 5 mix but clearly behind Durant.

Dirk was also much more mobile than Jokic, which benefited him on both ends but especially offense. Dirk was called a 7ft SG in his early 20s because he'd be moving off ball, he'd be attacking off of a face-up, he'd be running the floor hard, etc. Dirk being significantly more mobile on top of being a better shooter also allowed him to be a more diverse type of shot-maker than Jokic, as he was much more adept at shooting on the move.

I think Jokic has surpassed Peak Dirk. The passing edge is too monumental, and the rest of his offensive game speaks for itself. But Dirk wasn't just "Jokic without the passing" as some people think. He was a different kind of athlete and player. Better shooter and more athletic.

Some cool data from O_6 presented in a Dirk thread from January this year. Felt the need to share not to make an opinion, but to validate the point Dirk wasn't some slow-footed statue / wouldn't be some glorified stretch 5 today..

[bigboi]

Think this way, Mavs are the 2nd winningest team (1137w/779l, 59.3%) in the past 23 years in the entire nba, and Dirk was the anchor for majority of that..

Don’t care. I can pull up an arbitrary bs stat for any player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

[dygaction]

Don’t care. I can pull up an arbitrary bs stat for any player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

Please don't do this [everyone]. See post #52. trex

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

Could we not?

[capfan33]

I think Dirk has certain advantages over Jokic in terms of flexibility, he could easily be an SF on offense and a PF on defense. I think he's possibly less targetable in the playoffs than Jokic on defense, so I think top-4 is a pretty safe bet. And ofc, in today's offensive environment, he would feast.

[dygaction]

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

Could we not?

right, read through the exchanges and this is what you come up with, could we not?

[OhayoKD]

^^^ignoring that so there's no derail

I think Dirk has certain advantages over Jokic in terms of flexibility, he could easily be an SF on offense and a PF on defense. I think he's possibly less targetable in the playoffs than Jokic on defense, so I think top-4 is a pretty safe bet. And ofc, in today's offensive environment, he would feast.

Okay. how does today's offensive environment help Dirk stand out, relative to the field

[capfan33]

^^^ignoring that so there's no derail

I think Dirk has certain advantages over Jokic in terms of flexibility, he could easily be an SF on offense and a PF on defense. I think he's possibly less targetable in the playoffs than Jokic on defense, so I think top-4 is a pretty safe bet. And ofc, in today's offensive environment, he would feast.

Okay. how does today's offensive environment help Dirk stand out, relative to the field

I wasn't necessarily saying he would be better relative to the field, but that his numbers would be much more impressive today compared to back then as I know some people may look at his stats and not be all that impressed.

[Colbinii]

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

Could we not?

Just report, don't reply, and move on.

[therealbig3]

I mean I can only really see Jokic and Giannis clearly ahead. I think I'd take Dirk over anyone else. Peak Dirk stands up reasonably well to peak Curry as an offensive anchor btw.

[rk2023]

Don’t care. I can pull up an arbitrary bs stat for any player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Explain why they’re overrated through some sort of film or statistical analysis, because I find Nash to be underrated on here due to the box score and Dirk to be properly rated - where people don’t just key in on 2011.. because, shockingly enough, there’s a ton to like about his career sans that run!

[therealbig3]

^^^ignoring that so there's no derail

I think Dirk has certain advantages over Jokic in terms of flexibility, he could easily be an SF on offense and a PF on defense. I think he's possibly less targetable in the playoffs than Jokic on defense, so I think top-4 is a pretty safe bet. And ofc, in today's offensive environment, he would feast.

Okay. how does today's offensive environment help Dirk stand out, relative to the field

You're not seeing how the increased spacing and offensive freedom, especially for jump shooters, would significantly benefit one of the greatest shooters and isolation scorers of all time, a guy who did A TON of his work facing up and creating off the dribble, moreso than most other players? A guy who was one of the best off ball players in his own time, you can't imagine the type of havoc he would wreak on today's defenses?

IDK, Dirk would benefit tremendously in today's offensive environment. Especially with regards to being able to bomb away from deep, he didn't even have the green light to do that in his own era, which wasn't that long ago.

I think someone like Dirk would actually benefit more in the current era than someone like Kobe, who people usually talk about would play a lot better now. Dirk's pure shooting ability and off ball gravity would help him even more than Kobe in today's game.