Curry's Offense

[parsnips33]

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league rn or close to it

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

2018 Harden was the best isolation scorer ever and nobody else has come close, afaik.

10 Possessions per game and 1.2 PPP [120 Ortg]

The only players who scored more PPP than Harden in Isolation had extremely low volume [everyone was under 40 total possessions except Jokic at 54. Harden had over 700 Possessions].

Chris Paul was 2nd in the league at 1.1 [110 Ortg]. There were 11 players between 1.0 PPP and 1.1 PPP. Meaning the difference between Harden and #2 was the same as #2 and #12.

2019 Harden was also incredible with...wait for it...1280 possessions in isolations at a 1.1 PPP [110 Ortg] clip.

Harden had more Isolations in 2019 than the next 4 most Isolation scorers had combined--and none of them bested 1.06 PPP.

He was taking Klay and Iggy off the dribble no screen I just had to laugh

[MyUniBroDavis]

[youtube][/youtube]

You see clear separation between Kyrie and Steph on isos? Who is the top tier for you?

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league rn or close to it

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

I don’t think it would scale at a higher volume if he approached it the same way Kyrie does

A lot of it is coaching for sure, but Curry doesn’t really go into iso against good or elite defenders that much relative to some other guys

His isos are mostly switches or misdirection/change of pace type quick hitters where he lulls a defender to sleep because they’re expecting a different action and he pulls up or just drives quickly

There’s nothing wrong with that, but if we’re talking about “okay let’s go to work” I wouldn’t have Curry at the top

I meant small guards, hardens like 6ft5 and fat lol, but I see what you mean, Altho man that was the most 5 out iso thing ever lol.

Iirc if 07 Kobe probably had the best iso scoring stats I’ve seen, basically had the same level of effeciency as harden compared to the rest of the league with a few less possessions but waaaaay less pass outs. Of course there are some issues cuz I know it was some locker room drama but damn that was crazy in terms of scoring

Hardens high up there, I do think some guys historically in that rockets type of switch + iso + 5 out could have similar levels of game breaking dominance.

[Colbinii]

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

2018 Harden was the best isolation scorer ever and nobody else has come close, afaik.

10 Possessions per game and 1.2 PPP [120 Ortg]

The only players who scored more PPP than Harden in Isolation had extremely low volume [everyone was under 40 total possessions except Jokic at 54. Harden had over 700 Possessions].

Chris Paul was 2nd in the league at 1.1 [110 Ortg]. There were 11 players between 1.0 PPP and 1.1 PPP. Meaning the difference between Harden and #2 was the same as #2 and #12.

2019 Harden was also incredible with...wait for it...1280 possessions in isolations at a 1.1 PPP [110 Ortg] clip.

Harden had more Isolations in 2019 than the next 4 most Isolation scorers had combined--and none of them bested 1.06 PPP.

He was taking Klay and Iggy off the dribble no screen I just had to laugh

If you haven't, you should listen to D'Antoni's guest appearance on Ben Taylor's podcast. He talks about it a lot and how the offense evolved to that point.

I think he says something to the effect that the Harden/Capella Pick and Roll was so deadly that the best course of action for defenses was to just let Harden isolate against anyone he wanted instead.

[MyUniBroDavis]

2018 Harden was the best isolation scorer ever and nobody else has come close, afaik.

10 Possessions per game and 1.2 PPP [120 Ortg]

The only players who scored more PPP than Harden in Isolation had extremely low volume [everyone was under 40 total possessions except Jokic at 54. Harden had over 700 Possessions].

Chris Paul was 2nd in the league at 1.1 [110 Ortg]. There were 11 players between 1.0 PPP and 1.1 PPP. Meaning the difference between Harden and #2 was the same as #2 and #12.

2019 Harden was also incredible with...wait for it...1280 possessions in isolations at a 1.1 PPP [110 Ortg] clip.

Harden had more Isolations in 2019 than the next 4 most Isolation scorers had combined--and none of them bested 1.06 PPP.

He was taking Klay and Iggy off the dribble no screen I just had to laugh

If you haven't, you should listen to D'Antoni's guest appearance on Ben Taylor's podcast. He talks about it a lot and how the offense evolved to that point.

I think he says something to the effect that the Harden/Capella Pick and Roll was so deadly that the best course of action for defenses was to just let Harden isolate against anyone he wanted instead.

This is basically similar to why some teams don’t really hedge on Curry anymore

[MyUniBroDavis]

On the Kyrie point btw, I don’t think it should be a crazy thought that he’s better at isoing than Curry, or that he’s all time at it

In terms of small guards, in isolation -

He’s got the best handles ever
He’s up there for best midrange ever (cp3 is the only guy I can think of with better percentages but the gap isn’t so big esp considering the shots they take)
He’s got one of the most ridiculous touches ever and he’s been using his body on finishes more
Elite from three

Etc etc etc

He’s only really lacking in physical attributes and even then he’s not a bad athlete or anything just not elite

People harp on his finishing % a lot when it’s just cuz he takes ridiculous ones, and he’s still effecient lol

[capfan33]

[youtube][/youtube]

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league rn or close to it

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

I don’t think it would scale at a higher volume if he approached it the same way Kyrie does

A lot of it is coaching for sure, but Curry doesn’t really go into iso against good or elite defenders that much relative to some other guys

His isos are mostly switches or misdirection/change of pace type quick hitters where he lulls a defender to sleep because they’re expecting a different action and he pulls up or just drives quickly

There’s nothing wrong with that, but if we’re talking about “okay let’s go to work” I wouldn’t have Curry at the top

I meant small guards, hardens like 6ft5 and fat lol, but I see what you mean, Altho man that was the most 5 out iso thing ever lol.

Iirc if 07 Kobe probably had the best iso scoring stats I’ve seen, basically had the same level of effeciency as harden compared to the rest of the league with a few less possessions but waaaaay less pass outs. Of course there are some issues cuz I know it was some locker room drama but damn that was crazy in terms of scoring

Hardens high up there, I do think some guys historically in that rockets type of switch + iso + 5 out could have similar levels of game breaking dominance.

I think the system had a pretty large part in it, the fact that CP3 was second is a pretty notable indicator. All due respect to CP3, but I don't think he's that good an iso scorer, the Rockets essentially had the optimal offensive setup for isoing by taking the whole analytics/spacing movement to its logical extreme.

[MyUniBroDavis]

[youtube][/youtube]

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

I don’t think it would scale at a higher volume if he approached it the same way Kyrie does

A lot of it is coaching for sure, but Curry doesn’t really go into iso against good or elite defenders that much relative to some other guys

His isos are mostly switches or misdirection/change of pace type quick hitters where he lulls a defender to sleep because they’re expecting a different action and he pulls up or just drives quickly

There’s nothing wrong with that, but if we’re talking about “okay let’s go to work” I wouldn’t have Curry at the top

I meant small guards, hardens like 6ft5 and fat lol, but I see what you mean, Altho man that was the most 5 out iso thing ever lol.

Iirc if 07 Kobe probably had the best iso scoring stats I’ve seen, basically had the same level of effeciency as harden compared to the rest of the league with a few less possessions but waaaaay less pass outs. Of course there are some issues cuz I know it was some locker room drama but damn that was crazy in terms of scoring

Hardens high up there, I do think some guys historically in that rockets type of switch + iso + 5 out could have similar levels of game breaking dominance.

I think the system had a pretty large part in it, the fact that CP3 was second is a pretty notable indicator. All due respect to CP3, but I don't think he's that good an iso scorer, the Rockets essentially had the optimal offensive setup for isoing by taking the whole analytics/spacing movement to its logical extreme.

Yeah alot oh guys have gotten way up in iso scoring, alotnof that is the league catching up

Harden still is the best iso scorer in this generation compared to guys nowadays if we take him at his best (at least in the RS lol) but the gap isn’t as pronounced as I think it is on synergy

I think he’s a contender for best iso scorer ever for sure though

[Heej]

Free throw rate is a good point

What do people think is the reason it's so low relatively? Obviously a much lower likelihood of getting fouled on a jump shot, but it seems anecdotally that he doesn't get nearly as many calls on drives as his peers

Is it an approach thing? I'm tempted to say reffing has some impact, but have to check my Warriors fan bias

From what I understand these are the play types that rank high in FTR.

Post up
Roll man
Cut/dump off (think dunker spot)
Transition
Iso
Putbacks

Play types low in FTR

Off ball screen
Spot up
Drives (ironic I know)
PnR ballhandler (roll man absorbs more FTs)

Don't think it takes much to see why just from looking at play types. And on an even more granular level he's just not a crafty foul drawer like the majority of other players in his archetype.

Curry's composure, free throws, and lack of leading a truly GOAT caliber offense in the playoffs are always gonna be negatives to the Offensive GOAT argument but it remains incredibly strong nonetheless

[Heej]

Also re: guys replicating Hardens iso dominance. Not in the modern NBA without being at least a Curry level passer and preferably at least a Harden/Westbrook level passer

[ShotCreator]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

He's just not close to Jokic on timing or variability of deliveries. Let alone pure decision making. To say nothing of Trae, LeBron and even Luka.

Curry's a good passer. Probably up there with the best scoring guards on passing. I prefer his over Jordan's. Would clearly put him below Harden's. Elite is not in the cards for him. Never has been.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

He's just not close to Jokic on timing or variability of deliveries. Let alone pure decision making. To say nothing of Trae, LeBron and even Luka.

Curry's a good passer. Probably up there with the best scoring guards on passing. I prefer his over Jordan's. Would clearly put him below Harden's. Elite is not in the cards for him. Never has been.

Trae and luka are absolutely not better than Curry at dealing with aggressice coverages which was my main point originally lol. People don’t trap bron they drop and go under or as the warriors have done ice this series.

[Heej]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

He's just not close to Jokic on timing or variability of deliveries. Let alone pure decision making. To say nothing of Trae, LeBron and even Luka.

Curry's a good passer. Probably up there with the best scoring guards on passing. I prefer his over Jordan's. Would clearly put him below Harden's. Elite is not in the cards for him. Never has been.

He's not an elite passer, but at the one pass he uses more than anyone in NBA history he's the absolute pinnacle of it

And honestly seeing his cross court bullet passes when he's freely running spread PnR, are we sure he couldn't be an elite impact passing guard? His technical passing skills and accuracy outside of random brainfarts are in the upper echelons of the league. There aren't 20 people I'd choose over him to pass the ball thru skill challenge hoops for example.

His accuracy and touch is elite which isn't surprising given his deadeye shooting lol. And realistically he's probably top 15 pure accurate passers with either hand imo even if his vision doesn't strike people as elite. He's basically just a slightly worse Westbrook as far as passing goes with less high PnR spamming. He could easily average 10apg in a year if he played in a Dantoni style offense lol. Imagine the Knicks got him man...

[ronnymac2]

He could easily average 10apg in a year if he played in a Dantoni style offense lol. Imagine the Knicks got him man...

[Heej]

He could easily average 10apg in a year if he played in a Dantoni style offense lol. Imagine the Knicks got him man...

Idk why I did that to myself. Thank God LeBron at least won or yesterday would've been hell for me

[LukaTheGOAT]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Why do you think Curry was able to perform so well against the Celtics in 2022 in comparison to Kyrie?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Why do you think Curry was able to perform so well against the Celtics in 2022 in comparison to Kyrie?

Because Curry is better?

They were running a high drop like we are but horford isn’t AD lol, but obviously currys a better scorer than kyrie, Kyrie is probably better if your talking about pure isolation without any sort of advantages, Kyrie probably scores better

[ShaqAttac]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Yup this isn't talked enough. He's actually the GOAT passer out of blitzes on the perimeter and especially above the 3pt line. Not that the list of guys who routinely face those coverages us exceptionally long lol. But he's the only one I've seen that strings the big along for an extra dribble and effortlessly hooks a pass over to the rolling big. No one else in the league does that other than Jokic and that's vs post doubles, so he's really the only guy to ever do that.

But also let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge the fact that he's legitimately bottom 3 in terms of shot selection out of his contemporaries in the top 15 (any guesses on who the other 2 are? ).

He's probably the GOAT guard screener in NBA history with really only Stockton and perhaps CP as his challengers imo (funny enough Kyrie lays solid wood on his screens lol, just can't seal and cut like Curry can).

And this is going to get some Curry stans mad and I don't really care, but you also need to acknowledge that his late game execution is also on the low tier out of the top 15 guys. For whatever reason he makes a lot of bonehead plays and momentum killing TOs and jacks up shots. Stamina is the biggest issue with his particular archetype imo because they're targeted by defenses. In nearly every series you're guaranteed 1 game by Steph that's an absolute dud while he was at his apex, to more of a degree than others he's compared to.

He also doesn't get to the free throw line nearly enough compared to other elite guards in NBA history which is a weakness of his.

Does he produce the most offense by volume? I mean I guess, as far as getting the ball and bodies moving and generating advantages; I can buy that. He also gives defenses a lot of bailout shots though and seemingly has stamina issues throughout certain games in a series.

In aggregate I think his only real guard competitors are Magic Jordan and maybe Big O or Jerry West. I'd probably comfortably take him over everyone on that list except Magic who just managed an offense better than anyone ever, especially for the first 40 minutes of a game. When it gets down to brass tacks in late game execution I wouldn't be surprised if several of those guys jump him due to inconsistency and variance being inherently bad for an offense the less possessions there are.

Like Unibro said, this is probably comfortably Steph if he was better at just playmaking in isolation which is basically the most low variance play type in basketball and esp in 4th quarters. Or even if he just got to the line more. But respectfully, with his shot selection, low FT rate, and spotty decision making (I understand he's the GOAT shooter but let's be real here) I just am not taking him over Magic.

And I'm sure this is why he never actually lead a GOAT level playoff offenses.

u didn even mention mj damm

how he compaare to bigger plyrs like shaq bron n jok

[therealbig3]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Yup this isn't talked enough. He's actually the GOAT passer out of blitzes on the perimeter and especially above the 3pt line. Not that the list of guys who routinely face those coverages us exceptionally long lol. But he's the only one I've seen that strings the big along for an extra dribble and effortlessly hooks a pass over to the rolling big. No one else in the league does that other than Jokic and that's vs post doubles, so he's really the only guy to ever do that.

But also let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge the fact that he's legitimately bottom 3 in terms of shot selection out of his contemporaries in the top 15 (any guesses on who the other 2 are? ).

He's probably the GOAT guard screener in NBA history with really only Stockton and perhaps CP as his challengers imo (funny enough Kyrie lays solid wood on his screens lol, just can't seal and cut like Curry can).

And this is going to get some Curry stans mad and I don't really care, but you also need to acknowledge that his late game execution is also on the low tier out of the top 15 guys. For whatever reason he makes a lot of bonehead plays and momentum killing TOs and jacks up shots. Stamina is the biggest issue with his particular archetype imo because they're targeted by defenses. In nearly every series you're guaranteed 1 game by Steph that's an absolute dud while he was at his apex, to more of a degree than others he's compared to.

He also doesn't get to the free throw line nearly enough compared to other elite guards in NBA history which is a weakness of his.

Does he produce the most offense by volume? I mean I guess, as far as getting the ball and bodies moving and generating advantages; I can buy that. He also gives defenses a lot of bailout shots though and seemingly has stamina issues throughout certain games in a series.

In aggregate I think his only real guard competitors are Magic Jordan and maybe Big O or Jerry West. I'd probably comfortably take him over everyone on that list except Magic who just managed an offense better than anyone ever, especially for the first 40 minutes of a game. When it gets down to brass tacks in late game execution I wouldn't be surprised if several of those guys jump him due to inconsistency and variance being inherently bad for an offense the less possessions there are.

Like Unibro said, this is probably comfortably Steph if he was better at just playmaking in isolation which is basically the most low variance play type in basketball and esp in 4th quarters. Or even if he just got to the line more. But respectfully, with his shot selection, low FT rate, and spotty decision making (I understand he's the GOAT shooter but let's be real here) I just am not taking him over Magic.

And I'm sure this is why he never actually lead a GOAT level playoff offenses.

What about Nash? If you want to talk about leading GOAT level playoff offense even against elite defenses…

And I’d honestly keep Kobe in the conversation vs Steph. Kobe was damn good as an offensive anchor and led some excellent playoff offenses on multiple deep runs. Not GOAT-level but very good…similar to Steph.

[Heej]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Yup this isn't talked enough. He's actually the GOAT passer out of blitzes on the perimeter and especially above the 3pt line. Not that the list of guys who routinely face those coverages us exceptionally long lol. But he's the only one I've seen that strings the big along for an extra dribble and effortlessly hooks a pass over to the rolling big. No one else in the league does that other than Jokic and that's vs post doubles, so he's really the only guy to ever do that.

But also let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge the fact that he's legitimately bottom 3 in terms of shot selection out of his contemporaries in the top 15 (any guesses on who the other 2 are? ).

He's probably the GOAT guard screener in NBA history with really only Stockton and perhaps CP as his challengers imo (funny enough Kyrie lays solid wood on his screens lol, just can't seal and cut like Curry can).

And this is going to get some Curry stans mad and I don't really care, but you also need to acknowledge that his late game execution is also on the low tier out of the top 15 guys. For whatever reason he makes a lot of bonehead plays and momentum killing TOs and jacks up shots. Stamina is the biggest issue with his particular archetype imo because they're targeted by defenses. In nearly every series you're guaranteed 1 game by Steph that's an absolute dud while he was at his apex, to more of a degree than others he's compared to.

He also doesn't get to the free throw line nearly enough compared to other elite guards in NBA history which is a weakness of his.

Does he produce the most offense by volume? I mean I guess, as far as getting the ball and bodies moving and generating advantages; I can buy that. He also gives defenses a lot of bailout shots though and seemingly has stamina issues throughout certain games in a series.

In aggregate I think his only real guard competitors are Magic Jordan and maybe Big O or Jerry West. I'd probably comfortably take him over everyone on that list except Magic who just managed an offense better than anyone ever, especially for the first 40 minutes of a game. When it gets down to brass tacks in late game execution I wouldn't be surprised if several of those guys jump him due to inconsistency and variance being inherently bad for an offense the less possessions there are.

Like Unibro said, this is probably comfortably Steph if he was better at just playmaking in isolation which is basically the most low variance play type in basketball and esp in 4th quarters. Or even if he just got to the line more. But respectfully, with his shot selection, low FT rate, and spotty decision making (I understand he's the GOAT shooter but let's be real here) I just am not taking him over Magic.

And I'm sure this is why he never actually lead a GOAT level playoff offenses.

u didn even mention mj damm

how he compaare to bigger plyrs like shaq bron n jok

Yes I did.

I think Bron is better and more resilient in the playoffs, Jokic I need some time and it's looking good. Shaq...no. He's a great pivot passer and offensive rebounder and obviously scorer but free throws held him back from GOAT level offense.

[ShaqAttac]

Yup this isn't talked enough. He's actually the GOAT passer out of blitzes on the perimeter and especially above the 3pt line. Not that the list of guys who routinely face those coverages us exceptionally long lol. But he's the only one I've seen that strings the big along for an extra dribble and effortlessly hooks a pass over to the rolling big. No one else in the league does that other than Jokic and that's vs post doubles, so he's really the only guy to ever do that.

But also let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge the fact that he's legitimately bottom 3 in terms of shot selection out of his contemporaries in the top 15 (any guesses on who the other 2 are? ).

He's probably the GOAT guard screener in NBA history with really only Stockton and perhaps CP as his challengers imo (funny enough Kyrie lays solid wood on his screens lol, just can't seal and cut like Curry can).

And this is going to get some Curry stans mad and I don't really care, but you also need to acknowledge that his late game execution is also on the low tier out of the top 15 guys. For whatever reason he makes a lot of bonehead plays and momentum killing TOs and jacks up shots. Stamina is the biggest issue with his particular archetype imo because they're targeted by defenses. In nearly every series you're guaranteed 1 game by Steph that's an absolute dud while he was at his apex, to more of a degree than others he's compared to.

He also doesn't get to the free throw line nearly enough compared to other elite guards in NBA history which is a weakness of his.

Does he produce the most offense by volume? I mean I guess, as far as getting the ball and bodies moving and generating advantages; I can buy that. He also gives defenses a lot of bailout shots though and seemingly has stamina issues throughout certain games in a series.

In aggregate I think his only real guard competitors are Magic Jordan and maybe Big O or Jerry West. I'd probably comfortably take him over everyone on that list except Magic who just managed an offense better than anyone ever, especially for the first 40 minutes of a game. When it gets down to brass tacks in late game execution I wouldn't be surprised if several of those guys jump him due to inconsistency and variance being inherently bad for an offense the less possessions there are.

Like Unibro said, this is probably comfortably Steph if he was better at just playmaking in isolation which is basically the most low variance play type in basketball and esp in 4th quarters. Or even if he just got to the line more. But respectfully, with his shot selection, low FT rate, and spotty decision making (I understand he's the GOAT shooter but let's be real here) I just am not taking him over Magic.

And I'm sure this is why he never actually lead a GOAT level playoff offenses.

u didn even mention mj damm

how he compaare to bigger plyrs like shaq bron n jok

Yes I did.

I think Bron is better and more resilient in the playoffs, Jokic I need some time and it's looking good. Shaq...no. He's a great pivot passer and offensive rebounder and obviously scorer but free throws held him back from GOAT level offense.

o i dum

how bout wilt n mikan

also wuts a pivot passer