Old man MJ vs Old man Lebron

[falcolombardi]

Not that this really has anything to do with anything ,but there were only 637 days between G6 of the 1993 finals and his first game back in 1995, it was less than two years. It was really not a 3 year break, bothers me when people say that just because 1996 - 1993 = 3.

He's referencing from 98 to the Wizards years. Not the baseball sabbatical years.

Ah, if so, my bad. Hard to tell, some might call the '95 Bulls pre Jordan a terrible team and technically he did play 82 games @ 37 mpg the next year so it wasn't really clear.

95 bulls were not a terrible team, nor was jordan the only change on the roster after 95

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Old man MJ didn't have the medical breakthroughs that LeBron has! This comparison is completely unfair and ridiculous. Give MJ modern medicine and I have no doubt he could be better than old LeBron!

[Colbinii]

Old man MJ didn't have the medical breakthroughs that LeBron has! This comparison is completely unfair and ridiculous. Give MJ modern medicine and I have no doubt he could be better than old LeBron!

Hell, MJ could have been better than LeBron without modern medice but he wasn't!

[OhayoKD]

MJ at age 38 shot 41% and Lebron at age 38 shot 52%

Lebron is clearly the better player late in his career, but does this matter in the overall GOAT debate?

It does matter to some.

There are three major groups and this isn't exact but an easy way to look at things.

Group 1: Jordan is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. Just look at Wade's comments recently about Jordan being "his GOAT".

No amount of statistical evidence, film study, or deeper understanding of basketball will ever change someone with this mentality.

Group 2: LeBron passed Jordan in 2018 or 2020. He surpassed Jordan, rivalled his Peak/Prime but played much longer at near-Peak levels.

This group tends to look at all the statistical evidence laid out, follows the evolution of the NBA over the years, and it open to the idea that there could be a new GOAT in 20-30 years who surpasses LeBron.

Group 3: LeBron is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. He is my generation's Jordan.

See reasoning for Group 1.

I don't see anyone who seriously had Jordan ahead of LeBron only for 2022 or 2023 to be the nail-in-the-coffin for the debate or the evidence needed for LeBron to supplant Jordan.

There is also group 4 that just thinks Lebron was better than Jordan but for whatever reason feels the need to diplomatically call their peaks/primes similar

[trex_8063]

MJ at age 38 shot 41% and Lebron at age 38 shot 52%

Lebron is clearly the better player late in his career, but does this matter in the overall GOAT debate?

Take a glimpse at the difference in eras, you can get the answer for that numbers difference.

The years he appears to be referring to are '02 and '22; the difference in FG% [which he appears to be citing] between the two is 1.6% (44.5 to 46.1), yet he's noting an 11% difference (10.8% if we want to be precise).......leaving a gap of 9.2% which is not "answered" by the glipse you refer to.


This is dicey for me to say, but seriously when did you become so unmitigatingly dishonest in your posting? Because I genuinely do not remember this kind of thing from you in years past.

[mysticOscar]

This is quite an obvious bait thread.

It's quite clear that Lebron has arguably the best longevity of any players in the NBA.

The better question would be, would MJ have achieved the same level at 38yo if he played in the same era as Lebron, did not quit for 3 years and and was motivated at chasing ring count as Lebron.

For what it's worth MJs Wizards stint was just a period of what ifs for MJ. Biggest one is the Wizards and MJ were starting to gel before he reagrevated his knee injury. What if he webtthroguh the year injury free? What if he didn't sustain a rub injury in the pre season?

38yo MJ is not the same as 38yo Lebron...because Lebron continued on to play and was motivated to keep going and ensure he was in relative top shape whereas MJ retiring after the Bulls had no initial intention of coming back

[migya]

MJ at age 38 shot 41% and Lebron at age 38 shot 52%

Lebron is clearly the better player late in his career, but does this matter in the overall GOAT debate?

Take a glimpse at the difference in eras, you can get the answer for that numbers difference.

The years he appears to be referring to are '02 and '22; the difference in FG% [which he appears to be citing] between the two is 1.6% (44.5 to 46.1), yet he's noting an 11% difference (10.8% if we want to be precise).......leaving a gap of 9.2% which is not "answered" by the glipse you refer to.


This is dicey for me to say, but seriously when did you become so unmitigatingly dishonest in your posting? Because I genuinely do not remember this kind of thing from you in years past.

Are you talking directly to me?

What I viewed was a much harder to score in era then the current one. Hence why scoring is much more nowadays.

[Colbinii]

Take a glimpse at the difference in eras, you can get the answer for that numbers difference.

The years he appears to be referring to are '02 and '22; the difference in FG% [which he appears to be citing] between the two is 1.6% (44.5 to 46.1), yet he's noting an 11% difference (10.8% if we want to be precise).......leaving a gap of 9.2% which is not "answered" by the glipse you refer to.


This is dicey for me to say, but seriously when did you become so unmitigatingly dishonest in your posting? Because I genuinely do not remember this kind of thing from you in years past.

Are you talking directly to me?

What I viewed was a much harder to score in era then the current one. Hence why scoring is much more nowadays.

Trex and I both took the time to explain how the difference in league average FG% isn't very different. We also pointed out how vast the difference in Jordan and LeBron had in FG%.

If you want to actually address the points we brought up, please do so. If you want to talk past us, then we will both acknowledge your inability to articulate and address an argument brought forth against you and I will continue to engage with you less and less as you are becoming a waste of time on this forum.

[migya]

The years he appears to be referring to are '02 and '22; the difference in FG% [which he appears to be citing] between the two is 1.6% (44.5 to 46.1), yet he's noting an 11% difference (10.8% if we want to be precise).......leaving a gap of 9.2% which is not "answered" by the glipse you refer to.


This is dicey for me to say, but seriously when did you become so unmitigatingly dishonest in your posting? Because I genuinely do not remember this kind of thing from you in years past.

Are you talking directly to me?

What I viewed was a much harder to score in era then the current one. Hence why scoring is much more nowadays.

Trex and I both took the time to explain how the difference in league average FG% isn't very different. We also pointed out how vast the difference in Jordan and LeBron had in FG%.

If you want to actually address the points we brought up, please do so. If you want to talk past us, then we will both acknowledge your inability to articulate and address an argument brought forth against you and I will continue to engage with you less and less as you are becoming a waste of time on this forum.

I don't engage with you because of your attitude, so it's no loss to me. You should be snuggled with your view, it'd likely keep it warm and secure for you.

[lessthanjake]

MJ at age 38 shot 41% and Lebron at age 38 shot 52%

Lebron is clearly the better player late in his career, but does this matter in the overall GOAT debate?

It does matter to some.

There are three major groups and this isn't exact but an easy way to look at things.

Group 1: Jordan is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. Just look at Wade's comments recently about Jordan being "his GOAT".

No amount of statistical evidence, film study, or deeper understanding of basketball will ever change someone with this mentality.

Group 2: LeBron passed Jordan in 2018 or 2020. He surpassed Jordan, rivalled his Peak/Prime but played much longer at near-Peak levels.

This group tends to look at all the statistical evidence laid out, follows the evolution of the NBA over the years, and it open to the idea that there could be a new GOAT in 20-30 years who surpasses LeBron.

Group 3: LeBron is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. He is my generation's Jordan.

See reasoning for Group 1.

I don't see anyone who seriously had Jordan ahead of LeBron only for 2022 or 2023 to be the nail-in-the-coffin for the debate or the evidence needed for LeBron to supplant Jordan.

This essentially assumes that someone who “look[s] at all the statistical evidence” could not come to a conclusion that Jordan > LeBron. Which I don’t think is true at all. Like, all the groups you mention do exist, but there absolutely are also people who prefer Jordan and whose views *are* based on statistical evidence, film study, and a deep understanding of basketball (indeed, I think there’s many such people). And your post basically suggests that that doesn’t exist.

[Colbinii]

MJ at age 38 shot 41% and Lebron at age 38 shot 52%

Lebron is clearly the better player late in his career, but does this matter in the overall GOAT debate?

It does matter to some.

There are three major groups and this isn't exact but an easy way to look at things.

Group 1: Jordan is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. Just look at Wade's comments recently about Jordan being "his GOAT".

No amount of statistical evidence, film study, or deeper understanding of basketball will ever change someone with this mentality.

Group 2: LeBron passed Jordan in 2018 or 2020. He surpassed Jordan, rivalled his Peak/Prime but played much longer at near-Peak levels.

This group tends to look at all the statistical evidence laid out, follows the evolution of the NBA over the years, and it open to the idea that there could be a new GOAT in 20-30 years who surpasses LeBron.

Group 3: LeBron is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. He is my generation's Jordan.

See reasoning for Group 1.

I don't see anyone who seriously had Jordan ahead of LeBron only for 2022 or 2023 to be the nail-in-the-coffin for the debate or the evidence needed for LeBron to supplant Jordan.

This essentially assumes that someone who “look[s] at all the statistical evidence” could not come to a conclusion that Jordan > LeBron. Which I don’t think is true at all. Like, all the groups you mention do exist, but there absolutely are also people who prefer Jordan and whose views *are* based on statistical evidence, film study, and a deep understanding of basketball (indeed, I think there’s many such people). And your post basically suggests that that doesn’t exist.

I don't believe there is a strong, objective argument to be made in favor of Jordan which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set.

[Colbinii]

Are you talking directly to me?

What I viewed was a much harder to score in era then the current one. Hence why scoring is much more nowadays.

Trex and I both took the time to explain how the difference in league average FG% isn't very different. We also pointed out how vast the difference in Jordan and LeBron had in FG%.

If you want to actually address the points we brought up, please do so. If you want to talk past us, then we will both acknowledge your inability to articulate and address an argument brought forth against you and I will continue to engage with you less and less as you are becoming a waste of time on this forum.

I don't engage with you because of your attitude, so it's no loss to me. You should be snuggled with your view, it'd likely keep it warm and secure for you.

And what about Trex? He made a similar point how I did about how FG% was similar in 2002 and 2023, yet LeBron crushes Jordan in FG%?

Or do you also not engage with Trex--who is far more mellow than myself.

[mysticOscar]

It does matter to some.

There are three major groups and this isn't exact but an easy way to look at things.

Group 1: Jordan is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. Just look at Wade's comments recently about Jordan being "his GOAT".

No amount of statistical evidence, film study, or deeper understanding of basketball will ever change someone with this mentality.

Group 2: LeBron passed Jordan in 2018 or 2020. He surpassed Jordan, rivalled his Peak/Prime but played much longer at near-Peak levels.

This group tends to look at all the statistical evidence laid out, follows the evolution of the NBA over the years, and it open to the idea that there could be a new GOAT in 20-30 years who surpasses LeBron.

Group 3: LeBron is the GOAT. He will always be my GOAT. He is my generation's Jordan.

See reasoning for Group 1.

I don't see anyone who seriously had Jordan ahead of LeBron only for 2022 or 2023 to be the nail-in-the-coffin for the debate or the evidence needed for LeBron to supplant Jordan.

This essentially assumes that someone who “look[s] at all the statistical evidence” could not come to a conclusion that Jordan > LeBron. Which I don’t think is true at all. Like, all the groups you mention do exist, but there absolutely are also people who prefer Jordan and whose views *are* based on statistical evidence, film study, and a deep understanding of basketball (indeed, I think there’s many such people). And your post basically suggests that that doesn’t exist.

I don't believe there is a strong, objective argument to be made in favor of Jordan which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set.

How about team and individual dominance over there peers? I think its quite objective which of these 2 had a superior dominance. Isn't that what matters most...winning?

Unless you have all the almost infinite data points of all the players in the history of the NBA that we can almost create a virtual time machine and mesh in all the different scenarios that could possibly happen and then spit out an objective answer who was better...then don't pretend u have the answer using stats

[Colbinii]

This essentially assumes that someone who “look[s] at all the statistical evidence” could not come to a conclusion that Jordan > LeBron. Which I don’t think is true at all. Like, all the groups you mention do exist, but there absolutely are also people who prefer Jordan and whose views *are* based on statistical evidence, film study, and a deep understanding of basketball (indeed, I think there’s many such people). And your post basically suggests that that doesn’t exist.

I don't believe there is a strong, objective argument to be made in favor of Jordan which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set.

How about team and individual dominance over there peers? I think its quite objective which of these 2 had a superior dominance. Isn't that what matters most...winning?

Sure, you could focus solely on winning, but then Bill Russell and George Mikan should be #1 and #2 on those lists, and I have never seen a list with Russell/Mikan/Jordan as #1, #2 and #3.

So, we start to apply context, and other players rise and some players fall.

[mysticOscar]

I don't believe there is a strong, objective argument to be made in favor of Jordan which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set.

How about team and individual dominance over there peers? I think its quite objective which of these 2 had a superior dominance. Isn't that what matters most...winning?

Sure, you could focus solely on winning, but then Bill Russell and George Mikan should be #1 and #2 on those lists, and I have never seen a list with Russell/Mikan/Jordan as #1, #2 and #3.

So, we start to apply context, and other players rise and some players fall.

It's not solely picking on winning. Don't try to strawman..your better than that.

It's combination of individual dominance and team success.

Picking MJ is not a Robert Horry analogy...he was the main reason for the team success.

I have stated many times that I have no issues with people picking Russell as there GOAT..he has a great case.

But in terms of MJ vs Lebron...MJ > LeBron in team and individual dominance vs his peers

[Colbinii]

How about team and individual dominance over there peers? I think its quite objective which of these 2 had a superior dominance. Isn't that what matters most...winning?

Sure, you could focus solely on winning, but then Bill Russell and George Mikan should be #1 and #2 on those lists, and I have never seen a list with Russell/Mikan/Jordan as #1, #2 and #3.

So, we start to apply context, and other players rise and some players fall.

It's not solely picking on winning. Don't try to strawman..your better than that.

You said that. Winning matters most. Russell and Mikan were more dominant in their era's than Jordan was.

Picking MJ is not a Robert Horry analogy...he was the main reason for the team success.

Like Russell and Mikan?

I have stated many times that I have no issues with people picking Russell as there GOAT..he has a great case.

But in terms of MJ vs Lebron...MJ > LeBron in team and individual dominance vs his peers

Is this true? We have a whole thread [RealGM Top 100 #1 2023] explaining in grand detail why LeBron is #1. And the vote wasn't close.

[lessthanjake]

I don't believe there is a strong, objective argument to be made in favor of Jordan which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set.

How about team and individual dominance over there peers? I think its quite objective which of these 2 had a superior dominance. Isn't that what matters most...winning?

Sure, you could focus solely on winning, but then Bill Russell and George Mikan should be #1 and #2 on those lists, and I have never seen a list with Russell/Mikan/Jordan as #1, #2 and #3.

So, we start to apply context, and other players rise and some players fall.

MysticOscar didn’t “focus solely on winning.” MysticOscar said “How about team *and individual* dominance over their peers.” Jordan’s case would be a combination of the two—which is also a pretty reasonable combination to look at, because one is ultimately trying to get at a player’s influence on their team winning, and obviously two very important data points to get at that question include how much their team won and how big a part of that winning they were individually.

Is this true? We have a whole thread [RealGM Top 100 #1 2023] explaining in grand detail why LeBron is #1. And the vote wasn't close.

But there were plenty of Jordan voters. Are you saying that none of the Jordan voters had their vote be based on an “objective argument…which relies heavily on film, league environment, statistical profile and skill-set”?

[mysticOscar]

Sure, you could focus solely on winning, but then Bill Russell and George Mikan should be #1 and #2 on those lists, and I have never seen a list with Russell/Mikan/Jordan as #1, #2 and #3.

So, we start to apply context, and other players rise and some players fall.

It's not solely picking on winning. Don't try to strawman..your better than that.

You said that. Winning matters most. Russell and Mikan were more dominant in their era's than Jordan was.

Picking MJ is not a Robert Horry analogy...he was the main reason for the team success.

Like Russell and Mikan?

I have stated many times that I have no issues with people picking Russell as there GOAT..he has a great case.

But in terms of MJ vs Lebron...MJ > LeBron in team and individual dominance vs his peers

Is this true? We have a whole thread [RealGM Top 100 #1 2023] explaining in grand detail why LeBron is #1. And the vote wasn't close.

Let me try to be clearer with my response.

You stated that there are no objective reason to have MJ as #1....and I'm saying that there is because of individual and team success...my context was MJ vs Lebron (due to title of thread)

You can bring up players from eras during the infancy of the league...like Russell and I have no issue with people having them as there GOAT. Mikan is a stretch since he only played so many years in the NBA.

Oh cool...so a project which is made up of a lot of LeBron fans has Lebron at #1...yeah case closed

[mysticOscar]

Also I want to be clear...I have no issue with people having Lebron as GOAT if they also weigh heavily on longevity (even tho i dont agree that longevity should be weighed heavily)....

just don't like these pretentious posts that pretend the have unlocked the secret to the goat debate via statistical model

[Colbinii]

It's not solely picking on winning. Don't try to strawman..your better than that.

You said that. Winning matters most. Russell and Mikan were more dominant in their era's than Jordan was.

Picking MJ is not a Robert Horry analogy...he was the main reason for the team success.

Like Russell and Mikan?

I have stated many times that I have no issues with people picking Russell as there GOAT..he has a great case.

But in terms of MJ vs Lebron...MJ > LeBron in team and individual dominance vs his peers

Is this true? We have a whole thread [RealGM Top 100 #1 2023] explaining in grand detail why LeBron is #1. And the vote wasn't close.

Let me try to be clearer with my response.

You stated that there are no objective reason to have MJ as #1....and I'm saying that there is because of individual and team success...my context was MJ vs Lebron (due to title of thread)

You can bring up players from eras during the infancy of the league...like Russell and I have no issue with people having them as there GOAT. Mikan is a stretch since he only played so many years in the NBA.

Oh cool...so a project which is made up of a lot of LeBron fans has Lebron at #1...yeah case closed

My point is that Russell has a clearer argument for your presented argument for Jordan.

How about team and individual dominance over there peers?

Russell should be #1 then. But I have never seen a list with Russell #1 and either Jordan/Mikan #2/#3.

Those are the three players who had the most dominance over their peers by a pure title measurement.