Your Pick As Greatest Player Ever?

[Jaivl]

KAJ/Duncan with less convincing cases, don't really appreciate the cases for others.

Duncan has zero GOAT case unless you're playing intentionally dumb re/ LeBron.

[eminence]

KAJ/Duncan with less convincing cases, don't really appreciate the cases for others.

Duncan has zero GOAT case unless you're playing intentionally dumb re/ LeBron.

LeBron of course continues to stretch every other candidates case as he stacks great seasons past ages most everyone else was retired. And you could reasonably argue only he/Russell have GOAT cases at this point. But if we're bothering to list cases we can kinda sorta see an outline for, I think KAJ/Duncan deserve inclusion (and Mikan if you truly 100% give no **** about eras, but even I don't stretch quite that far).

I'm not saying I would make the argument (I don't time machine, and at least in the majority of cases I'm not bothered by players moving squads), but I think one could make a historical portability argument/focused on one franchise success argument for Duncan over LeBron (add in a dash of weighting on-court ratings more highly relative to on-off as well). LeBron's actual career value doesn't outstrip Duncan by that much.

[Whiffyemperor]

Kobe and kevin durant

[DraymondGold]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

Hey 70sFan! Question: how much would your evaluation of career value change if you incorporated each player's basketball value outside of the NBA (e.g. college, high school, etc.)?

A lot of people consider Kareem to be the GOAT high school player and the GOAT college player. Perhaps being the GOAT high school player doesn't add that much (e.g. if he were playing in the NBA instead of high school, he probably wouldn't be in the top 10), but Kareem was probably good enough to be argued as a Top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. Would that be enough to bump him above current LeBron in your estimation, or are those early high school / college years just not good enough to make a difference?

[Owly]

KAJ/Duncan with less convincing cases, don't really appreciate the cases for others.

Duncan has zero GOAT case unless you're playing intentionally dumb re/ LeBron.

LeBron of course continues to stretch every other candidates case as he stacks great seasons past ages most everyone else was retired. And you could reasonably argue only he/Russell have GOAT cases at this point. But if we're bothering to list cases we can kinda sorta see an outline for, I think KAJ/Duncan deserve inclusion (and Mikan if you truly 100% give no **** about eras, but even I don't stretch quite that far).

I'm not saying I would make the argument (I don't time machine, and at least in the majority of cases I'm not bothered by players moving squads), but I think one could make a historical portability argument/focused on one franchise success argument for Duncan over LeBron (add in a dash of weighting on-court ratings more highly relative to on-off as well). LeBron's actual career value doesn't outstrip Duncan by that much.

I think "one franchise success", if at all nuanced, would have to account for circumstances in terms of temptation and opportunity to leave (shorter length maxes for much of LeBron's prime, Spurs stability, long-term planning) and would have to have a good read on Duncan's intent in 2000 (and perhaps what franchise success he has at Orlando or subsequent locations). Not to say it isn't still a Duncan win, simply that notional "loyalty" type measures are messy and necessarily working on very incomplete and context-specific information.

[Rishkar]

Duncan has zero GOAT case unless you're playing intentionally dumb re/ LeBron.

LeBron of course continues to stretch every other candidates case as he stacks great seasons past ages most everyone else was retired. And you could reasonably argue only he/Russell have GOAT cases at this point. But if we're bothering to list cases we can kinda sorta see an outline for, I think KAJ/Duncan deserve inclusion (and Mikan if you truly 100% give no **** about eras, but even I don't stretch quite that far).

I'm not saying I would make the argument (I don't time machine, and at least in the majority of cases I'm not bothered by players moving squads), but I think one could make a historical portability argument/focused on one franchise success argument for Duncan over LeBron (add in a dash of weighting on-court ratings more highly relative to on-off as well). LeBron's actual career value doesn't outstrip Duncan by that much.

I think "one franchise success", if at all nuanced, would have to account for circumstances in terms of temptation and opportunity to leave (shorter length maxes for much of LeBron's prime, Spurs stability, long-term planning) and would have to have a good read on Duncan's intent in 2000 (and perhaps what franchise success he has at Orlando or subsequent locations). Not to say it isn't still a Duncan win, simply that notional "loyalty" type measures are messy and necessarily working on very incomplete and context-specific information.

Well, from all my reading, Duncan has GOAT intangibles. A true level 5 leader as defined by Jim Collins, he coupled personal humility with professional will in a way that a. Obviously translated to success b. has been repeatedly praised by teammates and coaches c. set a tone for the rest of the organization. If I'm a GM, and I'm asked who I want to start a franchise with today from a pool of all historical players, I'm picking Duncan. That's a GOAT case unto itself, even if it isn't my personal criteria.

[Gregoire]

Oh, man, this escalated quickly...

23-19 in MJs favor on PC board.... its... like sweeping Lebron at his homecourt....

[OhayoKD]

LeBron of course continues to stretch every other candidates case as he stacks great seasons past ages most everyone else was retired. And you could reasonably argue only he/Russell have GOAT cases at this point. But if we're bothering to list cases we can kinda sorta see an outline for, I think KAJ/Duncan deserve inclusion (and Mikan if you truly 100% give no **** about eras, but even I don't stretch quite that far).

I'm not saying I would make the argument (I don't time machine, and at least in the majority of cases I'm not bothered by players moving squads), but I think one could make a historical portability argument/focused on one franchise success argument for Duncan over LeBron (add in a dash of weighting on-court ratings more highly relative to on-off as well). LeBron's actual career value doesn't outstrip Duncan by that much.

I think "one franchise success", if at all nuanced, would have to account for circumstances in terms of temptation and opportunity to leave (shorter length maxes for much of LeBron's prime, Spurs stability, long-term planning) and would have to have a good read on Duncan's intent in 2000 (and perhaps what franchise success he has at Orlando or subsequent locations). Not to say it isn't still a Duncan win, simply that notional "loyalty" type measures are messy and necessarily working on very incomplete and context-specific information.

Well, from all my reading, Duncan has GOAT intangibles. A true level 5 leader as defined by Jim Collins, he coupled personal humility with professional will in a way that a. Obviously translated to success b. has been repeatedly praised by teammates and coaches c. set a tone for the rest of the organization. If I'm a GM, and I'm asked who I want to start a franchise with today from a pool of all historical players, I'm picking Duncan. That's a GOAT case unto itself, even if it isn't my personal criteria.

Duncan loses any intangible argument to Russell quite quickly. And even Russell aside, I'm not sure he's a clear #2 if you are open to the possiblity that stars not going along with owners or coaches --can-- be good when the team's winning improves in the aftermath.

Duncan is the pinnacle of the "shut up and play" approach but a player who can do more than shut up and play effectively has a higher cieling. Russell combines all of duncan's perks with the added benefit of being able to operate as a coach on the floor(and then literally for possibly the most impressive of the celtics runs). Clearly more valuable off-court than Duncan if winning is the primary concern.

[MrLurker]

Don’t have one and I think people who obsess over a singular GOAT are wasting their time. Even if we could perfectly compare positional impacts (we can’t) the era differences alone make things incredibly difficult. Overall, Jordan, James, Russell, and Abdul-Jabbar have distinguished themselves in their eras.

Well said. I'm pretty confident in saying that if there will be a player with clear cut GOAT status (let's assume Wemby dominates the game in a way we've never seen before), people will be fine with having LeBron and Jordan on the same tier, as variable of necessity of having one single GOAT won't be valid anymore (with someone else being better than both of them in this scenario). It's totally understandable (to have someone as the greatest, even if that's totally subjective), but simultaneously it's still only a social construct, not some consensual knowledge as @Gregoire suggests.

Big 4 is pretty much exchangeable within itself with every 1-4 ranking defendable.

Jordan for sure. Best peak, best prime. Concensus GOAT everywhere outside of PC Board (voting results very telling and very predictable ).

Regardless of your provocative tone, what you are trying to do is to objectify your subjective feelings, even though there is no objective formula to say that Jordan (also LeBron and anyone) was better than Bill Russell. If we agree on that, whether there's really a consensus or not is completely irrelevant. This is only subjective interpretation of selected facts, there's nothing more to that.

Furthermore, I don't want to dwell too much on postmodernism or critical theory or stuff like that, but using 'consensus' as an argument in the discussion about subjective interpretations of facts is nothing more than eristics aimed at maintaining the majority view in accordance with its beliefs as the universally valid one.

And I don't even disagree with your main point - as I said, it's defendable to have Jordan as the GOAT.

It is a shame so many take a great interest in making others conform to what is popular. I think one of the great strengths of this fora is the great diversity of views it allows and entertains. An emphasis on rationale and history and understanding - even if they may support not so popular perspectives - should be paramount here in my opinion.

Personally, I think interchangeability between the common 4 is generous. The path for Jordan or Jabbar's to upsurp both James and Russell seems a touch narrow and assumption-laden for my liking. Nonetheless, I think it is good people can and do argue otherwise -passionately - without being told their view is not quite popular enough here to warrant consideration.

To be fully frank, such dismissals would strike me as cowardly.

[AEnigma]

Oh, man, this escalated quickly...

23-19 in MJs favor on PC board.... its... like sweeping Lebron at his homecourt....

Yeah guessing some laughably insecure Jordan devotee who starting watching basketball ten years ago brought the poll to the General Board’s attention. Too bad that could not be done for the Top 100 project.

[lessthanjake]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

Hey 70sFan! Question: how much would your evaluation of career value change if you incorporated each player's basketball value outside of the NBA (e.g. college, high school, etc.)?

A lot of people consider Kareem to be the GOAT high school player and the GOAT college player. Perhaps being the GOAT high school player doesn't add that much (e.g. if he were playing in the NBA instead of high school, he probably wouldn't be in the top 10), but Kareem was probably good enough to be argued as a Top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. Would that be enough to bump him above current LeBron in your estimation, or are those early high school / college years just not good enough to make a difference?

I’d go so far as to say Kareem would have *easily* been a top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. After all, he was a top 3 player in the NBA the very next year as a rookie. And, considering that Kareem’s college stats were essentially the same each year (actually, if anything, they were at their worst his last year) and he was at a GOAT-college-player level throughout, I’m pretty inclined to think that Kareem would’ve been a top 5 NBA player every single year he played in college. And my guess is he’d have been all-NBA level even as freshman in college (when he wasn’t allowed on the varsity team yet). Obviously all this is speculation, since he wasn’t in the NBA and so we can only make guesses and inferences. But from what we do know, I think it seems like the best guess. The question of whether that matters or not is a different question though. I tend to be in the camp where I think Kareem would have been one of the top few players in the NBA immediately out of HS, but also that I don’t really care that much about it for ranking purposes since it just didn’t happen that way in reality. That viewpoint is rooted in not giving players credit for hypotheticals (which one could come up with for anyone), but also in the fact that we genuinely don’t know how his career would’ve unfolded if he’d played earlier. Maybe if Kareem had been able to go to the NBA out of HS, he’d have been elite immediately but have worn out his body quicker, or ended up on less good teams, etc. and have ultimately ended up with a lesser career. We don’t know how things would’ve unfolded or if it really would’ve been better overall. That said, there’s also the related notion that we don’t have to give Kareem credit for things he didn’t do, but rather that we should give him credit for what he *did* do in those years—i.e. dominate high school and college to an historical degree. I don’t put all that much stock in that personally, since it’s not the highest level of the game, but I think reasonable people can definitely differ on that or even just make an exception for someone who was so obviously incredible in those years as Kareem was. Ultimately, I think it’s that sort of argument that gives Kareem a genuinely legitimate case for basketball GOAT. I don’t see Kareem as having all that great a case for NBA GOAT (though obviously he’s high up the rankings), but his overall basketball GOAT case is a pretty good one IMO.

[70sFan]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

Hey 70sFan! Question: how much would your evaluation of career value change if you incorporated each player's basketball value outside of the NBA (e.g. college, high school, etc.)?

A lot of people consider Kareem to be the GOAT high school player and the GOAT college player. Perhaps being the GOAT high school player doesn't add that much (e.g. if he were playing in the NBA instead of high school, he probably wouldn't be in the top 10), but Kareem was probably good enough to be argued as a Top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. Would that be enough to bump him above current LeBron in your estimation, or are those early high school / college years just not good enough to make a difference?

I don't think adding Kareem college years would put him ahead of James. Maybe if you import an era longevity curve?

[The Explorer]

Jordan. Though Russell and Abdul-Jabbar have strong arguments as well. No one else has a strong argument for me.

[NbaAllDay]

Jordan. Though Russell and Abdul-Jabbar have strong arguments as well. No one else has a strong argument for me.

Do you have a criteria for how you measure your GOAT candidates and if so what is it?

[Clyde Frazier]

Oh, man, this escalated quickly...

23-19 in MJs favor on PC board.... its... like sweeping Lebron at his homecourt....

I don't know how to put this anymore clearly: on top of the fact that your anti-lebron posts are blatant baiting, they're also flat out pointless. They serve absolutely no purpose on this board. If it continues you'll be suspended and then eventually banned.

And to be clear, I'm not a LeBron fan and still have Jordan as the GOAT. So there's no bias here. It's on you at the point to behave. Thanks.

[pancakes3]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

Hey 70sFan! Question: how much would your evaluation of career value change if you incorporated each player's basketball value outside of the NBA (e.g. college, high school, etc.)?

A lot of people consider Kareem to be the GOAT high school player and the GOAT college player. Perhaps being the GOAT high school player doesn't add that much (e.g. if he were playing in the NBA instead of high school, he probably wouldn't be in the top 10), but Kareem was probably good enough to be argued as a Top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. Would that be enough to bump him above current LeBron in your estimation, or are those early high school / college years just not good enough to make a difference?

I don't think adding Kareem college years would put him ahead of James. Maybe if you import an era longevity curve?

Coming out even just 1 year earlier for '68-69 would have given KAJ a year overlap with Russell and his last championship. Coming out as a 1-and-done in '66-67 would have had him competing with Wes Unseld for ROY during Unseld's ROY/MVP campaign. If KAJ came out as a HS player, he would have had his ROY season during Wilt's first championship. I think his NBA resume would have been a lot better on paper with those 3 additional seasons.

leading a team to 3 straight undefeated seasons in college is a first ballot unanimous credential from a "Basketball HOF" perspective. Never will happen ever again.

[SNPA]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

I’m curious…what if you drop longevity as a defining criteria. Any 5 year period of dominance is good enough.

What’s your GOAT list look like then?

[70sFan]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

I’m curious…what if you drop longevity as a defining criteria. Any 5 year period of dominance is good enough.

What’s your GOAT list look like then?

Bill Russell at number one.

[Jaivl]

At this point, I think there are two possible choices: Bill Russell or LeBron James. James surpassed Kareem for career value and Russell has the best, most successful career.

My evaluation is focused on longevity, which is why James is at the top of my list. HM to Jordan and Kareem of course.

Hey 70sFan! Question: how much would your evaluation of career value change if you incorporated each player's basketball value outside of the NBA (e.g. college, high school, etc.)?

A lot of people consider Kareem to be the GOAT high school player and the GOAT college player. Perhaps being the GOAT high school player doesn't add that much (e.g. if he were playing in the NBA instead of high school, he probably wouldn't be in the top 10), but Kareem was probably good enough to be argued as a Top 10 player in the world in his last year of college. Would that be enough to bump him above current LeBron in your estimation, or are those early high school / college years just not good enough to make a difference?

Kind of a loaded question but, if we were to give NCAA meaningful weight (I don't think we should, NCAA ball sucks), how would that affect Jordan considering his extremely dissapointing performance with clear #1 teams?

[ShotCreator]

Kevin Garnett had the best collection of skills and abilities in the history of basketball in my opinion.

You get the current Miami Heat or GSW to draft him and I really think the highest peak and strongest Prime is on the table.

Ignoring that, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Jordan and Shaq have unique cases.

Duncan had a pretty short true prime. However his early 00’s peak is really high to me. I’m not convinced anyone named here played better than him from 00 to 03.

Jordan didn’t have the longest career and left a lot of the defensive side on the table but might be the greatest pure performer ever on a consistency level and resilience level.

Etc, etc.

LeBron is churning out the best career though for sure IMO. Two decades of all-NBA play coming right up, with possibly the most freakish peak ever in between.


So in my head it boils down to pure ability and talent(KG), consistency in performance(Russell, Jordan), peak play(LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, Jordan), and longevity(Kareem, LeBron).

Different ways to measure GOAT. I don’t think there is a clear picture of GOAT because there’s too many variables to a career.