Retro Player of the Year 1959-60 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[Djoker]

1960 EDF - Wilt vs. Russell

Game 1 - Celtics win by 6

Wilt: 42/29/1 on 51.0 %TS (+4.7 rTS)
Russell: 19/30/1 on 54.5 %TS (+8.2 rTS)

Game 2 - Warriors win by 5

Wilt: 29/28/1 on 52.9 %TS (+6.6 rTS)
Russell: 15/20/2 on 48.6 %TS (+2.3 rTS)

Wilt breaks his hand in this one punching Heinsohn. The hand swells up after the game and affects him in Game 3.

Game 3 - Celtics win by 30

Wilt: 12/15/6 on 38.4 %TS (-7.9 rTS)
Russell: 26/39/5 on 52.3 %TS (+6.0 rTS)

Game 4 - Celtics win by 8

Wilt: 24/34/2 on 54.9 %TS (+8.6 rTS)
Russell: 17/21/2 on 32.6 %TS (-13.7 rTS)

Game 5 - Warriors win by 21

Wilt: 50/35/2 on 50.2 %TS (+3.9 rTS) + 5 blocks
Russell: 22/27/4 on 59.0 %TS (+12.7 rTS)

Game 6 - Celtics win by 2

Wilt: 26/24/0 on 51.9 %TS (+5.6 rTS)
Russell: 25/25/3 on 45.0 %TS (-1.3 rTS)

Series Averages

Wilt: 30.5/27.5/2.0 on 51.0 %TS (+4.7 rTS)
Russell: 20.7/27.0/2.8 on 47.6 %TS (+1.3 rTS)

Wilt's even in his rookie year which was his least efficient scoring year was still solid; 37.6 ppg on 49.3 %TS (+3.0 rTS). That efficiency is no joke at that kind of volume.

One thing that does bother me a bit is WIlt's MVP though. Sure the Warriors improved a good amount with his arrival but Russell's Celtics won 10 more games and were 5 points better on SRS. Was Russell cast that much better than Wilt's? It was definitely better but I still fell like Russell should have been the MVP. Wilt's cast on paper looks good though definitely not great.

As for the head-to-head playoff series, the aggregates do hide the fact that Russell badly outplayed Wilt in Game 3 and slightly outplayed him in Game 6. As such, it's tough to spin the series as so much of a positive for Wilt to flip the POY voting in his favor IMO even though he did play well. Russell #1 Wilt #2 I've pretty much decided on.

[eminence]

Wilt breaks his hand in this one punching Heinsohn. The hand swells up after the game and affects him in Game 3.

I'd semi-forgotten about this, and it's actually worse, he attempted to punch Heinsohn but missed and hit Gola instead.

"Believe it or not, the Stilt’s punches are even less accurate than his free-throw shooting, he just decked his own teammate!” - Johnny Most

[One_and_Done]

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt

3. Baylor

4. Pettit
5. Schayes

It seems clear to me that Russell and Wilt were by far the 2 most impactful players on both ends, so an easy 1-2. After that it's a little tougher. I think, despite team results, it has to be Baylor. It was a weird era, and players often weren't utilised correctly or put into a position to succeed. He's just a more valuable player than Pettit or Schayes who happens to be in a worse context.

[70sFan]

\I think, despite team results, it has to be Baylor. It was a weird era, and players often weren't utilised correctly or put into a position to succeed. He's just a more valuable player than Pettit or Schayes who happens to be in a worse context.

Any particular reason why you think Baylor was a more valuable player than the two?

[trex_8063]

Oh boy, we have another juggernaut on the field now. Years getting more competitive. Anyway, here's my quick and dirty ballot.....


Offensive Player of the Year
1. Richie Guerin - Really hard year to gauge offensively, as far as who's best, so I'll admit I'm not confident at all in how I've chosen to order things (or even of the three I’m picking). The Knicks are the 3rd-best offense according to bbref (at +1.9 rORTG); Guerin has some good help in Sears and Naulls, and an aging Carl Braun [for about 70% of the season], though nothing much after that. I logged at least one game of his from I think '61 or '62, and remember being REALLY impressed by what I saw of him, particularly his passing. He looked like a truly high-level playmaker. While this isn't the year I'd logged that game from, I'm taking some liberties in assuming that SOME of that playmaking ability was there already in '60.
At any rate, he is leading the team in both ppg [9th in league] and apg [3rd in league], and at +2.93% rTS as well.

2. Bob Pettit - Again, not confident at all in the order of things, though these are the two guys I felt most strongly about for OPOY. The Hawks are the league's #1 offense this year, though they have a trio of marvellous scorers: their entire frontcourt. Presumably an aging Slater Martin is still a decent playmaker, and probably better than his numbers indicate.
Pettit and Hagan both [by the numbers] look like fairly equal co-anchors in the rs.
But in the playoffs, this time it's Pettit that holds up better: he's +1.9 ppg and +2.2% TS compared to Hagan, while being only -0.2 apg (and drastically out-rebounding him).

3. Jack Twyman - I know this may seem like a weird pick, given the Royals are awful (19-56, iirc). However, they were +0.2 rORTG, good for 4th in the league (though I suspect a pace correction on the Celtics might push the Royals back to 5th, though I think they were still 4th even by Ben Taylor’s pace estimates). And Twyman had NO relevant help on offense; like probably even less help than Iverson had [on offense] in '01. He was carrying them on that side of the ball. 2nd in the league in ppg [31.2] on +2.4% rTS with 3.5 apg as well.

HM’s: Cliff Hagan, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain.


Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell - Even with the pace adjusted figures from Ben Taylor, the Celtics appear the clearly best defense in the league. Bill’s the anchor; elite rebounder and rim-protector. ‘Nuff said.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Looking at his rebounding rate and knowing of his rim-protection [in later years], and seeing the defensive turnaround on defense upon his arrival (granted Sauldsberry arrives too), that’s why I’m picking him.
Their DRtg was not far behind that of the Celtics (I think +1.9 according to bbref, +1.7 according to Ben Taylor), yet something like -4.0 better than 3rd place. Wilt had more help on defense (at least it seems like it on paper) than Russell. But still…..

3. Woody Sauldsberry - There are some strong indications [AEnigma referenced some of them] of his defensive impact signals. Maybe it’s why he got playing time, despite being such a chucker. Anyway, I’m going this was for #3.
I don’t feel bad picking all three from just two teams, as these two teams were so far ahead of everyone else defensively.


Player of the Year
1. Wilt Chamberlain - My #2 in DPOY balloting, and an HM in OPOY who I strongly considered. Leading the league in ppg on good efficiency (+161.0 TS Add, btw) gets some attention from me, even if their ORtg was somewhat poor. Bear in mind that Sauldsberry was also added, and is chucking his way to new heights (a -239.7 TS Add, which I think might be an all-time NBA [bad] record); it’s hard to overcome the deleterious effect that would have on your offense.
Wilt also leading the league in rebounding.

2. Bill Russell - Can’t see going with anyone else for top 2. The Celtics prevail [again] as champions, and Russell is the head of the beast; going with him.

3. Elgin Baylor - Was an HM in OPOY, and I’ve always felt his defensive imprint was a little underrated (as I think I mentioned last thread). I’m leaving town soon and don’t have time, but I can present some of the indicators at a later time.
Baylor had a massive improvement in his shooting efficiency in the playoffs as the Lakers once again overachieve in the postseason. Wasn’t sure about leaving him off my OPOY ballot (but did because the Laker offense was so poor); but am compensating by putting him in 3rd here.

4. Bob Pettit - My tentative #2 for OPOY, substantial rebounder, all for a good team, and had a decent playoff showing.

5. Dolph Schayes - I’m be honest, this #5 pick felt like throwing a handful of muck at the wall and seeing what stuck. Not that there are no good picks, but rather that there are too many for me to decide. I feel pretty good about the top 4 [if not the order]; but #5 is a crap-shoot. I think cases can be made for Schayes, Hagan, Twyman, Guerin, maybe others??
I’m going once more with Dolph, who’s still averaging 22.5/12.8/3.4 on good efficiency (+110.9 TS Add), and appears the best player on a very good [though admittedly deep] team. He leads this squad in ppg, rpg, is 2nd in apg, and close 3rd in TS Add.


I will miss out on the ‘61 thread. Good luck all….

[eminence]

Two separate things I wanted to look at. First, the records of the top 4 teams against one another (checking for bumslayers). RS only.

Celtics (22-13)
8-5 vs Warriors
6-3 vs Hawks
8-5 vs Nats

Warriors (17-18)
5-8 vs Celtics
4-5 vs Hawks
8-5 vs Nats

Hawks (13-14)
3-6 vs Celtics
5-4 vs Warriors
5-4 vs Nats

Nats (14-21)
5-8 vs Celtics
5-8 vs Warriors
4-5 vs Hawks

Matches up pretty well vs overall record, notably the Hawks seemed to hold up fine vs the East. Verdict: no bumslayers

Secondly and completely unrelated is more of a broad concept commentary than of any POY relevancy - spacing 4s and their early prevalence. Top mpg guys for the winning record teams, positionally sorted.

Celtics:
Cousy
Sharman
Ramsey
Heinsohn
Russell

Warriors:
Rodgers
Gola
Arizin
Sauldsberry
Wilt

Hawks:
McCarthy
Green/Martin (started Martin, wound up Green at the end of the season)
Hagan
Pettit
Lovellette

Nationals:
Costello
Greer
Yardley
Schayes
Kerr

Anywho, my point here - 4 out has been a thing ever since the key initially widened. Look at those rosters - all those 4s have a solid amount of perimeter play to their game, Pettit probably the least but still respectable (Lovellette was also probably the best of the 5s as a shooter to generally keep a big further from the paint). I'll note Sauldsberry wasn't any good at it, but my impression is that he was generally shooting from a reasonable distance.

[Djoker]

^ Pettit was a very good jump shooter from 10-15 feet. In fact that was a big part of his scoring arsenal.

[eminence]

^ Pettit was a very good jump shooter from 10-15 feet. In fact that was a big part of his scoring arsenal.

Fully agreed, I was using him as a reference as he's probably the one people are most familiar with. If he's the least perimeter oriented (and he's plenty perimeter oriented) of the 4s it goes to show how common perimeter based 4s were.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell - Feel like I'm repeating myself for a few threads now but he anchored not just the #1 defense but an outlier defense. 2nd Team All-NBA. Should have been 1st Team + MVP as the Celtics were by far the best team in the league. Averaged 18.2/24.0/3.7 on 49.6 %TS (+3.3 rTS) in the RS and then 18.5/25.8/2.9 on 50.4 %TS (+4.1 rTS) in the PS. Huge impact defensively. Warriors went from 45.1 %TS in the RS to 44.1 %TS against the Celtics in the playoffs. Hawks went from 48.1 %TS in the RS to 47.5 %TS against the Celtics in the playoffs. Those don't look like huge declines but consider that Russell is destroying them on the glass (Russell outrebounded Wilt on a per minute basis) and the Celtics' backcourt players are forcing a ton of turnovers as well because they know they've got Russell behind them.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Monster rookie season. 1st Team All-NBA. 37.6/27.0/2.3 on 49.3 %TS (+3.0 rTS) in the RS then 33.2/25.8/2.1 on 49.8 %TS (+3.5 rTS) in the PS while being a huge defensive presence. Warriors were the #2 defense in the league and Wilt's paint protection, shotblocking and rebounding were a huge reason why. The Warriors also improved about 4 points on defense with his arrival. His impact is still much smaller than Russell's on the defensive end but Russell is an outlier. In terms of playing H2H against Russ, Wilt played very well and outplayed his rival individually but not decisively so to the point where I can outright choose him over Russell.

3. Elgin Baylor - All-around phenom who improved from his rookie year. I had him behind Pettit then but I have him ahead now because he now has a better RS on top of outplaying Pettit in the PS. 1st Team All-NBA. 29.6/16.4/3.5 on 48.9 %TS (+2.6 rTS) in the RS then 33.4/14.1/3.4 on 54.7 %TS (+8.4 rTS) in the PS.

4. Bob Pettit - Just another super solid year but not as transcendent as 1957 and 1958 plus guys like Wilt and Elgin are just clearly better than Pettit at this point IMO. 1st Team All-NBA. 26.1/17.0/3.6 on 51.0 %TS (+4.7 rTS) in the RS then 26.1/15.8/3.7 on 51.5 %TS (+5.2 rTS) in the PS. In the Finals, he against scored well against Russell and the Celtics with 25.7 ppg on +6.5 rTS but it's not the dominance from past Finals and that's what he needs to leapfrog the guys ahead of him.

5. Dolph Schayes - Epitome of all-around play and so consistent year after year. 2nd Team All-NBA. Plays for a good solid Syracuse team. 22.5/12.8/3.4 on 49.6 %TS (+3.3 rTS) in the RS then 29.3/16.0/2.7 on 55.6 %TS (+9.3 rTS) in the PS. He really stepped up in the playoffs even if they didn't go far which gives him the edge over the honorable mentions. It feels like he is good enough to be the lead man on a title team still.

HM: Bob Cousy, Richie Guerin, Cliff Hagan

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Elgin Baylor - Derives most of his impact on offense. Just a huge PS and a massive carryjob.

2. Bob Pettit - Led the #1 offense. Very efficient.

3. Wilt Chamberlain - Not a lot of offensive impact but his floor raising is still valuable. 37.6 ppg on +3.0 rTS is still valuable on a middling offensive team.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell - See POY post.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - See POY post.

3. Dolph Schayes - Main contributor of the #3 defense.

[penbeast0]

I will go with (shocking):

1. Bill Russell -- he isn't the talent that Wilt is (few if any were) but just leverages the amazing talents he did have more effectively

2. Wilt Chamberlain -- individual greatness didn't really translate into great team offense

3. Bob Pettit -- more consistent and more effective than Baylor

4. Elgin Baylor -- again, the most exciting player in the league

5. Dolph Schayes -- leader of one of the best teams in the league.

[Owly]

Anywho, my point here - 4 out has been a thing ever since the key initially widened. Look at those rosters - all those 4s have a solid amount of perimeter play to their game, Pettit probably the least but still respectable (Lovellette was also probably the best of the 5s as a shooter to generally keep a big further from the paint). I'll note Sauldsberry wasn't any good at it, but my impression is that he was generally shooting from a reasonable distance.

Agree-ish ... some quibbles or additional points

-Sauldsberry is acknowledged ... how much 4 out is 4 out (or working functionally as such) if one of the 4 is shooting awfully out there (career .610 FT% RS, .565 playoffs; .348 fg% RS, .351 playoffs)

- "has been a thing" ... is there an implication of continuously? And how much does it have to happen to keep on being a thing? How much range do you need qualify?
For instance Barry and Cohn have the positional average for ft% for power forwards in the 1996 season at 69.9% (unclear if this is weighted or average of averages) ... you've still got Mills and Ferry stretching it out to 3pt range, it's not a perfect proxy, having some awful guys could sink the average ... their average suggests the norm is only borderline passable at uncontested, no contest, extended time 15ft set shots. To me that doesn't bode well for the typical PF's range at that time.

- for it to be 4 out do we assume 1-3 can shoot (e.g. from the above Guy Rodgers and it would seem McCarthy).

The idea or possibility (with a somewhat stretchy 4) was long there. Maybe "5 out" if employing the old fashioned high post "pivot" if that counts. Probably more so in college (especially without elite athletes). How often there were genuine 4 out lineups (and to what extent) ...

[Dr Positivity]

The Warriors spacing looks pretty poor overall as Rodgers/Gola backcourt would not be giving much in that area

[eminence]

Not a sharpshooter by any means, but I'm fine with Gola's shooting.

[falcolombardi]

^ Pettit was a very good jump shooter from 10-15 feet. In fact that was a big part of his scoring arsenal.

Fully agreed, I was using him as a reference as he's probably the one people are most familiar with. If he's the least perimeter oriented (and he's plenty perimeter oriented) of the 4s it goes to show how common perimeter based 4s were.

10-15 feet is not perimeter play, albeit it can provide some spacing for older nba standars

[eminence]

^ Pettit was a very good jump shooter from 10-15 feet. In fact that was a big part of his scoring arsenal.

Fully agreed, I was using him as a reference as he's probably the one people are most familiar with. If he's the least perimeter oriented (and he's plenty perimeter oriented) of the 4s it goes to show how common perimeter based 4s were.

10-15 feet is not perimeter play, albeit it can provide some spacing for older nba standars

We're gonna disagree on that one, or at least it can be perimeter play. All face-up play is mechanically very similar until you're within a couple feet of the hoop.

[penbeast0]

In that interview with Pettit someone posted here recently, the guys running it were talking about how he was the first big to consistently use the corner 3 (which was only worth 2 of course).

[Dr Positivity]

i was under impression Pettit's shooting was about as good as it gets for a big in this era, along with Schayes and Lovellette

[falcolombardi]

i was under impression Pettit's shooting was about as good as it gets for a big in this era, along with Schayes and Lovellette

Sometimes players rep is better than their real effectivity as shooters (arvydas sabonis comes to my mind as a player whose 3 point shooting "prowess" gets into myth territory)

But in general trusting people at the time is our best bet without the boxscore data

[eminence]

i was under impression Pettit's shooting was about as good as it gets for a big in this era, along with Schayes and Lovellette

I seem to have worded my post kind of poorly. I agree Pettit was good on the perimeter, especially shooting. A step behind Schayes imo, but otherwise probably the next best 4/5 of the immediate era.

I meant to speak on it as a % of his role, he spent less of his time on the perimeter than Heinsohn/Woody because he was a lot better than them in the post, not because they were better than him on the perimeter (I do prefer Heinsohns handle so I can see an argument there depending on needed role).

[Owly]

In that interview with Pettit someone posted here recently, the guys running it were talking about how he was the first big to consistently use the corner 3 (which was only worth 2 of course).

I doubt if anyone's standing right in the corner much if there isn't an extra point for it. Less places to go, easier to get trapped...

Bill Simmons said in TBoB he thought Gar Heard's turnaround was a 50-footer (p10). Hyperbole probably but still. Roland Lazenby wrote that it was "several feet beyond the top of the key".

Now look at it

Watch on YouTube

Shots get dramatized with memory is the point.

Maybe there's a good sample of his shots coming from, not say 18 or 20 feet but genuinely both feet behind where the line would be (or even equivalent range for the line at its shortest) ... from memory - and maybe 4 minutes of highlights just to see if there there's anything obvious of him right in the corner, obviously a very limited sample - I don't know that he showcased quite that range or standing in the corner in particular. Which isn't a problem, he was still great and there wasn't much incentive to go too deep, if you spaced the floor a bit and it was good enough and it opened up your driving game you didn't need super deep range (though I think Schayes had it ... and with his FT% Schayes seems to have had a clear advantage in shot purity too).

Edit: To be fair looking at a slightly larger sample there's a corner-ish skipping shot where we can't see his feet, another where Russell's coming out to contest where it's close up so you can't see the the full court and it seems to go in quick but you can't tell if it's the different frame rate or he's not as far out as he appears ... IDK, still broadly skeptical about standing in the corner and highlights aren't a great tool for any confidence on accuracy ...