Retro Player of the Year 1976-77 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[OhayoKD]

*shrug* I said nothing of alphaness in any shape or form nor have I ever relied on it as a simple way to measure leadership or intangibles. I'm not even go into it here tbh

You relied on nothing and said nothing. You have no way to backup your assertion because it's an indefensible one, Same reason you refuse to engage in any of the points brought up.

but suffice to say if you watched a guy play bb for 10-12 years as much as I did you get a pretty good idea

But you don't, which is why none of this was factored in:

Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

You are arguing from ignorance. Baffling you would double-down.

You know what I find kind of funny/ironic about your general posting style is that its very much like MJ's leadership style but you just can't see it.

You see MJ. I see Lebron

[penbeast0]

Locking this for the night, I will reopen it tomorrow probably. It is degenerating into personal attacks very quickly.

[AEnigma]

Extending the poll closing time to Monday in light of the above.

[falcolombardi]

Walton always feels like a player of limitless potential despite already being an all time great peak. So is tempting to believe he was or could be even better than what we got off him....

at the same time without other healthy (enough) seasons the sample size remains too tiny. Was portland success a signal of unstopablr bill russel esque impact or a bit more fry in the pan like the recent 2023 jokic/nuggets who kind of played over their regular level against relatively uninspiring competition?

There is the sweep of the lakers of direct rival kareem but just like i dont think kawhi was a better player than lebron in 2014 i am unconvinced the team disparity alone is as good of an argument.

When watching that portland-lakers series i didnt see kareem being contained scoring wise nor did he get disconnected from playmaking. Quite thr opposite. Walton and portland help D couldnt keep kareem of scoring and often had to double him, front him , etc generating open spaces lakers didnt capitalize on

I think the relative lack of star names in either team (outside kareen and walton) makes it seem like the difference in roster quality or at least roster performancr couldnt have been too big we usually compare teams on their 2-3 best players and assume the rest of the rosters outside stars to be roughly equivalent or at least not different enough to matter

From film review portland perimeter play is a lot more competent at shooting, running fastbreaks, opportunistic scoring of drives, bringing the ball up court efficirntly to set plays (lakers nonironically lost a relevant amount of possesions and delayed/muddyed another bunch by failing to deal well with ball pressure full court and half court)

And even with all that it was a deceptively somewhat close series (as far as a 0-4 sweep can be called close) in net rating, if walton play was more impactful (not impossible) i dont think it would be by a significant enough margin that if both teans had the exact same perimeter play, the seried wouldnt be at least a flip coin-ish series

[AEnigma]

At minimum, Maurice Lucas was certainly well beyond anyone Kareem had on the Lakers.

[trex_8063]

At minimum, Maurice Lucas was certainly well beyond anyone Kareem had on the Lakers.

Agree. I would gauge Bob Gross as a little better than anyone Kareem had on the Lakers, too. I think Dave Twardzik, with his hyper-efficiency is debateable, too (he sort of reminds me---function-wise on that team---a little of '21 Joe Ingles).

I think Kareem is the best player on either team......but I think the Blazers might have ALL of the rest of the top five between them.
That backcourt in Portland is actually pretty decent; not that they have any true stand-out, but they go pretty deep without running into a bad player: Hollins, Twardzik, Gilliam, Davis, Steele. That's FIVE guards, and arguably none of them are as poor as a "replacement level" player (well....maybe rookie Davis, barely).

[capfan33]

At minimum, Maurice Lucas was certainly well beyond anyone Kareem had on the Lakers.

Agree. I would gauge Bob Gross as a little better than anyone Kareem had on the Lakers, too. I think Dave Twardzik, with his hyper-efficiency is debateable, too (he sort of reminds me---function-wise on that team---a little of '21 Joe Ingles).

I think Kareem is the best player on either team......but I think the Blazers might have ALL of the rest of the top five between them.
That backcourt in Portland is actually pretty decent; not that they have any true stand-out, but they go pretty deep without running into a bad player: Hollins, Twardzik, Gilliam, Davis, Steele. That's FIVE guards, and arguably none of them are as poor as a "replacement level" player (well....maybe rookie Davis, barely).

Yea, even having a semi-functional PF in place of Don Ford (lmao) would've made a huge difference. The absence of Kermit Washington is hard to understate in this playoffs as well as the subsequent two years. Kareem was excellent on the interior but even Wilt would've had his hands full dealing with both Walton and Lucas simultaneously without an actual PF next to him. Throw in Lucius Allen essentially being half a player and it's not surprising how the series went.

They beat them 3 out of 4 in the regular season with Walton playing in 2 of the losses. I would imagine with Washington and Allen it probably goes 6 at minimum, and the last 3 games were very close as is. All this to say in a vacuum I think Kareem is definitely better, but in the spirit of a project like this I get voting Walton.

[Djoker]

The Lakers weren't just less talented than the Blazers but both Kermit Washington and Lucius Allen missed the series against Porland. That's two quality starters just gone and that's tough to overcome. Still, Walton didn't get badly outplayed by Kareem. Kareem crushed him in Game 2 when he exploded for 40 points but in the other three contests Walton largely matched him even statistically. And from watching the tape, Walton did more on defense as Kareem was often slow coming back in transition and this is an area where the Blazers destroyed LA.

Tough year to choose my #1. On one hand, we have Kareem at his peak (for me 2nd best peak ever) and he's definitely the better player in a vacuum. But on the other hand, we have an all-time great in Walton also at his peak and he takes his team to a title which is a big deal in POY. Best player on the best team usually gets plenty of nods but especially a guy as great as Walton.

EDIT: Lucius only missed 2 games in the WCF.

[One_and_Done]

Would the Lakers have done better with Walton over Kareem? I doubt it.

[penbeast0]

Would Portland have done as well with Kareem? I think there is certainly a fit issue and Kareem is the more talented player; just Walton had a career year. And, yes, it was a very close vote with a big gap to #3.

[capfan33]

Neither player would make the other team better, but Kareem would be a much more active defender on the Blazers and could focus more on passing, albeit that's where the gap between him and Walton would be most obvious. And, of course, is a vastly better scorer which still would have plenty of value even on a team that was already offensively capable like the Blazers. (And this seems to get glossed over a lot of the time in these types of discussions)

But Walton on the Lakers is not suddenly going to turn into an efficient 25ppg scorer, and his passing wouldn't matter nearly as much on a team as offensively inept as the Lakers. And even his defense, without an actual PF next to him (or guards hounding the opposing teams ballhandlers), would look worse; of course, still better than Kareem's. With that being said….

POY
1. Walton- While I think Kareem is clearly better in a vacuum, I realize for a project like this that’s not really what were evaluating. Moreover, Walton was still exceptional even in a vacuum and was at least in the same ballpark as Kareem, while winning a title as the clear-cut best player on a very good team. As such, I think he makes sense as a #1 vote.

2. Kareem- GOAT-level peak, I think we all know where I stand.

3. Dr. J- Postseason numbers are inflated by facing the literal worst defense in the league, but he did play well against the Blazers en route to a competitive finals loss.

4. Bob Lanier- One of the more underrated scorers ever and was also a decent defender this year with great impact signals.

5. Rick Barry- Still an excellent offensive engine with a rare skillset for the 70s, and had a good 7 game series against the Lakers.

DPOY
1. Bill Walton- Easy pick, probably a top-10 defensive peak ever.
2. Artis Gilmore- All other things being equal will favor the true big over a help wing in the 70s, despite being partial to the latter as an archetype.
3. Bobby Jones- Lead a top-tier defense as the clear-cut best defender.

OPOY
1. Kareem- Just an absurd skillset and level of consistency, one-man wrecking crew that demanded a double at all times.
2. Dr. J- Had a very good playoff run and proved he could translate his game to the NBA against elite teams.
3. Bill Walton- Waffled between him and Barry, but the sample size and title makes me favor Walton, as well as the fact that he was as good a passer as Barry.

[OhayoKD]

Would Portland have done as well with Kareem? I think there is certainly a fit issue and Kareem is the more talented player; just Walton had a career year. And, yes, it was a very close vote with a big gap to #3.

Presuming you're discussing a hypothetical Kareem on Portland scenario... could you elaborate?

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Kareem at his peak is arguably the best player ever, Walton is not. Kareem is great at passing and D himself so not enough of a gap for Walton. Walton also missed some games.

2. Bill Walton - Excellent season and intangibles impact helping his team be greater than sum of its parts, best defensive player I've seen by eye test.

3. Julius Erving - His regular season is off but his postseason looks pretty solid, and I don't like the alternative options that much.

4. Rick Barry - Like Erving he gets higher due to strong playoffs, similar player as when he led contender in 76.

5. George Gervin - Excellent efficient scorer and had to carry his team more than other players like Jones, Hayes, Moses, etc. I would've picked Lanier if not for missed games.

Offensive player of the year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Rick Barry

Defensive player of the year

1. Bill Walton
2. Bobby Jones
3. Kareem Adbul-Jabbar

[trex_8063]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Probably his peak season, imo. When I did my scaled PER and WS/48 project [updated thru '23], I found '77 Kareem to have the 2nd-best scaled rs PER of all-time (behind only '72 Kareem, and just ahead of '78 Kareem and '89 Jordan) and the 3rd-best scaled rs WS/48 of all-time (behind only '71 Kareem and '67 Wilt).
Then in the playoffs, he had the #1 all-time PER, and is tied for 2nd [with '09 LeBron] in WS/48 (behind only '88 Hakeem [though his was on a mere 4-game sample]).
He carried a completely anemic supporting cast to the best record in the league [5th-best SRS], went to the conference finals despite a thinning of his cast [no Kermit Washington], then had to face the Blazers with no Lucius Allen, either. Kareem averaged 30.3 pgg @ 66% TS with 3.8 apg [and 16 rpg] against the frontcourt of Walton and Lucas, while drawing double and triple-teams almost constantly. The rest of his cast could nothing with all the attention he drew, botching open plays, etc, going a collective 47.6% TS, while his PF-less [Kermit-less] cast allowed Maurice Lucas to go off for a high-efficiency 23 ppg. Thus they got swept.

But Kareem was a monster, from start to finish, this season. imo, comfortably the best player in the league, and that's what matters most to me.

2. Bill Walton - Always liked the look of his defense; reminds me a lot of Rudy Gobert (or I guess I should say Rudy reminds me of Walton). Excellent outlet passer to that super-fast backcourt they had, nice passer from the high-post or elbow (a bit turnover prone, we know now.....but was a high risk/high reward passer from the big man position). Capable enough scorer on top of this. And he led them to the chip.
Big gap to #3.

3. Julius Erving - Disappointing year for him, though I think he and McGinnis didn't quite know how to co-exist. He would continue to show [into the 80s] that he was still something special, though. Not a clear 3rd, or even 4th or 5th best in the rs, though elevated slightly in the playoffs, and made the Finals.

4. Bob Lanier - Feel like I undercredited him in the prior season, and honestly I feel like this might be underrating him again; strongly considered putting him 3rd. He has another nice year, leading a weak cast to a winning record, and is monstrous in the short playoff series where they come up 8 points short against a far-superior Warriors team.

5. Bobby Jones - Don't know if this will be viewed as a controversial pick. His minutes hover in the 30-31 range [rs and ps], but his metrics are superb, and his impact signals were always high (would continue to be so into his Philly years, even as his body and minutes dwindle further). He's actually rebounding pretty well this year, too, in terms of individual rate (sometimes a criticism of him in other years), though he always boxed out.

Tough call on the last few spots, as David Thompson, Artis Gilmore, Rick Barry also definitely merit consideration (among some others, perhaps).


Offensive Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bob Lanier
3. Bill Walton

Weird not picking a guard, but there just isn't a standout I'm comfortable with. Though Rick Barry, David Thompson, Erving, Gervin, maybe even Murphy in Houston and Westphal in PHX merit consideration. Bob McAdoo, too.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Walton
2. Bobby Jones
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Top HM: Artis Gilmore.

[trex_8063]

Would Portland have done as well with Kareem? I think there is certainly a fit issue and Kareem is the more talented player; just Walton had a career year. And, yes, it was a very close vote with a big gap to #3.

Would Kareem be a lesser "fit" on that Portland team than Walton? Sure. But perhaps not as much as you imply; additionally, he's such a far superior offensive player that it negates that, imo.

Short answer: if Kareem/Walton swapped places that season, would the Blazers still win the title? imo, yes (additionally, I'm betting the Lakers don't do quite as well).

[Narigo]

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- Probably his peak year. Carries the Lakers to best record in the league. But lost because of terrible guard play. Outplayed Walton head to head in the playoffs.

2. Bill Walton- Lead the TrailBlazers to the championship. Is probably the best defender in the league at this time. Missed some games but is a clear 2 for me


3. Julius Erving- Despite not being statistically dominant as previous mostly due to playing with other scorers such as McGinnis and Collins. I think his impact was still felt as he leads 76ers to the finals main his first season

4. Bobby Jones- Jack of all trades who plays well on both ends.

5. Bob Lanier-

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Walton

Kareem was 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd Team All-Defense. MVP. Played all 82 games and then had a monster PS statistically while bowing out to Walton and his Blazers in the WCF. He averaged 26.2/13.3/3.9 on 60.8 %TS (+9.7 rTS) in the RS then 34.6/17.7/4.1 on 64.6 %TS (+13.7 rTS) in the PS. Walton was 2nd Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Defense. 2nd in MVP voting. Played 65 games but then had a really strong PS leading his team to the title. He averaged 18.6/14.4/3.8 on 56.3 %TS (+5.2 rTS) in the RS then 18.2/15.2/5.5 on 52.7 %TS (+2.5 rTS) in the PS. Kareem was the much better scorer and Walton was the better passer and more impactful defender. This is one of the toughest calls in the project. Ultimately I went Kareem first by a hair because Walton did miss 17 RS games which is more than a fifth of the season and that hurts his argument. I feel like if Walton missed five or fewer games he'd be my #1. That's how close it was and I value PS more than I value the RS plus the title matters a lot too.

3. Julius Erving - 2nd Team All-NBA. Dr J had a mediocre RS but then stepped it up a lot in the PS and led the Sixers to the Finals including a 2-0 lead they eventually relinquished. The Doctor was sensational and a clear #3 here. The Sixers were an amalgam of talent but it was a classic case of too many scorers and one ball to go around but in the PS Erving took a primary role and everyone else secondary roles and they flourished although facing a well-oiled machine that was the Blazers exposed their kinks. Erving averaged 21.6/8.5/3.7 on 55.3 %TS (+4.2 rTS) in the RS then 27.3/6.4/4.5 on 57.7 %TS (+6.5 rTS) in the PS. The Doctor also made an impact with his off-ball defense.

4. David Thompson - 1st Team All-NBA. The Nuggets were largely a defensive powerhouse but they were #7 on offense in no small part due to the young Skywalker. This man became an inspiration to MJ because of his high flying game but he was more than that before drugs and injuries derailed his career. Averaged 25.9/4.1/4.1 on 55.9 %TS (+4.8 rTS) in the RS then 24.7/5.2/4.0 on 51.3 %TS (+0.8 rTS) in the PS. The Nuggets lost a very close series to the eventual champion Blazers and Thompson had a good series in defeat.

5. Pete Maravich - 1st Team All-NBA. The man was a basketball maestro and this was his peak. The team didn't have much in terms of support and they missed the PS but Pistol Pete did his part. Averaged 31.1/5.1/5.4 on 49.2 %TS (-1.9 rTS). His efficiency wasn't great but he could score and pass very well and he carried a poor roster.

OPOY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2. Julius Erving

3. David Thompson

DPOY

1. Bill Walton

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Bobby Jones - Low minutes but best defender on the #1 defense.

[falcolombardi]

My votes

DPOY
1- walton, super high IQ 7'2 player with decent mobility is an absurd combination

2-gilmore, not familiar with his game but the physical profile is pretty great and hr got some impressive impact signals on defensive end before.

3-bobby jones, prolly the best defender in a elite defensive team but i cannot visualize him being on par with the high end bigs

OPOY
1-kareem. Easy answer for me. Probably still a top 3 offensive center ever and the most polished offensive center until jokic came around. Aeguably the best scorer ever in a combination of resilient scoring, volume and efficiency

2- rick barry, his play doesnt seem to have changed much from the previous years and was still fairly elite as a offensive engine despite not great efficiency scorinh

3- julius erving not the most polished atg player in offense but had enough lenght, athletism and skill to pull of a hell of "floor raising" job

Weird for me to not put any guard in the top 3 but this feels like a transitional era for them. May be underating people like paul westphal tho

POY

1-kareem, i would be comfortable with a walton win too, atg player with a great title run, in a lot of other seasons. But kareem play at this time or at 74 is trascendent for me despite the losses. One of the most unstoppablr offensive players ever and paited it with big defensive impact too

2-walton. A incredible player in his own right. Led a title team as by far its best player. I even wonder if i am not underating him.
The thingh that keeps kareem over him for me is that his scoring is much, much less reliable and game breaking than kareem who feels like he still aproximates 80~90% of walton passing and a decent 60-70 of walton defense

Walton offense feels kevin garnett esque in how it is really good but more of a complementary engine. Whereas kareem is not only a offense by himself but someone who can contribute in a better team too as we saw with a older kareem in lakers later on

3- julius erving. Philadelphia still put together a nice finals run despite the strong overlap issues between mcginnis and julius so i gotta give him big flowers for that

4- bob lanier. Seemingly really strong impact signals in an admittedly unimpressive team, great scoring too and doesnt have barry leadership/**** issues

5- barry. Seemingly of those guys whose impact outspeeds his raw numbers as he can drive strong offense without efficient scoring. Points taken away for locker room cancer-ness

[trex_8063]

My votes

DPOY
1- walton, super high IQ 7'2 player with decent mobility is an absurd combination

2-gilmore, not familiar with his game but the physical profile is pretty great and hr got some impressive impact signals on defensive end before.

3-bobby jones, prolly the best defender in a elite defensive team but i cannot visualize him being on par with the high end bigs

OPOY
1-kareem. Easy answer for me. Probably still a top 3 offensive center ever and the most polished offensive center until jokic came around. Aeguably the best scorer ever in a combination of resilient scoring, volume and efficiency

2- rick barry, his play doesnt seem to have changed much from the previous years and was still fairly elite as a offensive engine despite not great efficiency scorinh

3- julius erving not the most polished atg player in offense but had enough lenght, athletism and skill to pull of a hell of "floor raising" job

Weird for me to not put any guard in the top 3 but this feels like a transitional era for them. May be underating people like paul westphal tho

POY

1-kareem, i would be comfortable with a walton win too, atg player with a great title run, in a lot of other seasons. But kareem play at this time or at 74 is trascendent for me despite the losses. One of the most unstoppablr offensive players ever and paited it with big defensive impact too

2-walton. A incredible player in his own right. Led a title team as by far its best player. I even wonder if i am not underating him.
The thingh that keeps kareem over him for me is that his scoring is much, much less reliable and game breaking than kareem who feels like he still aproximates 80~90% of walton passing and a decent 60-70 of walton defense

Walton offense feels kevin garnett esque in how it is really good but more of a complementary engine. Whereas kareem is not only a offense by himself but someone who can contribute in a better team too as we saw with a older kareem in lakers later on

3- julius erving. Philadelphia still put together a nice finals run despite the strong overlap issues between mcginnis and julius so i gotta give him big flowers for that

As per project rules, I don’t think your POY ballot will be counted if not complete (POY requires 5 selections).

[70sFan]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I think this is his overall peak all things considered. He carried very mediocre Lakers team to a very respectable record in the RS and reached another level in the playoffs when his team collapsed due to injuries of Washington and Allen (two important starting players). I don't have the numbers in front of me unfortunately, but from my tracking work (and we have the vast majority of his playoff games in that season) the amount and efficiency of self-created shots were nothing short of incredible and he faced two strong teams with solid defensive frontcourts. I don't think he was at his defensive peak at this point, but he didn't lose that much on that end - especially considering the offensive load he was forced to carry.

2. Bill Walton - the only respectable Kareem opponent for the 1st spot. The best defensive player in the league (one of the smartest defenders I have ever seen), tremendous rebounder (very fundamentally sound) and all-around good offensive player. One of the best ever at finding cutters and starting transitions (not only with his famous outlet passes, but also with quick tip-rebounds to his teammates). Decent enough post scorer to force most opponents to adjust to him, though he wasn't a great scorer overall.

A shame that he didn't have a longer career, because I believe he kept improving until 1978 injury.

3. Julius Erving - his RS wasn't top tier all things concerned, but I believe that he was put in a quite tough situations to thrive in comparison to the ABA. The Sixers were filled with high volume scorers in McGinnis, Collins and Free (and even Dawkins per minute) and the spacing around him could be better to say the least. Still, he performed extremely well in 2 postseason series and although he struggled against Boston (good old Hondo made him work really hard in that series!), I don't see anyone else approaching him all things concerned.

4. Artis Gilmore - as always, I find the A-Train underrated in such polls. He joined a team in a new league that was in a complete rebuilding phase (unsuccessful one, but that's with the following seasons) and after a few months of rough adjustments, he anchored them to the playoffs. A lot of people often point out his relatively weak boxscore production, but I think that a lot of that had to do with this rough time of adjustment:

First 16 games: 17.4/12.6/1.7 on 49.8 FG% and 51.8 TS%, 2-14 record (10 wins pace)
Last 66 games: 18.9/13.1/2.7 on 52.9 FG% and 57.7 TS%, 42-24 record (52 wins pace)
Last 24 games: 20.8/14.0/2.8 on 52.8 FG% and 58.8 TS%, 22-2 record (75 wins pace)

Of course I don't think that the Bulls were that strong at the end of the season, but they played reasonably well against the future champions and Gilmore made Walton work on both ends of the floor. He was definitely among the best players in the league after a rough start.

5. Bob Lanier - forever underrated Bob, his team again collapsed with 6-12 record without him and were forced to play a short series against a strong Warriors team. Lanier of course dominated the series, but that just wasn't enough for the Pistons. It's interesting how Bob's career would end up with a better team. Imagine him in similar situation to Shaq when O'Neal could casually sit 15-20 RS games without a huge impact on team's standings, imagine him with another superstar carrying the team during his absence. Who knows how high he'd have been ranked in that scenario, I see him being a potential threat even for top 30.

HM: Rick Barry, Bobby Jones


Offensive Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bob Lanier
3. Julius Erving

HM: Rick Barry

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Walton
2. Bobby Jones
3. Artis Gilmore

HM: Elvin Hayes, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar