Retro Player of the Year 1989-90 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

[One_and_Done]

I guess the issue is you're not even claiming Isiah was a better player than Barkley in 1990.

What's next, should I rank Bird for his 1984 season this year, because such a great team as the Celtics should get more 'representation' over the decade? What if I wanted to vote for Bird so that popular players were more 'represented', or because I felt players who were 'legendary' needed more 'representation'?

[OhayoKD]

I guess the issue is you're not even claiming Isiah was a better player than Barkley in 1990.

What's next, should I rank Bird for his 1984 season this year, because such a great team as the Celtics should get more 'representation' over the decade? What if I wanted to vote for Bird so that popular players were more 'represented', or because I felt players who were 'legendary' needed more 'representation'?

what part of player of the year do you find confusing

[AEnigma]

I guess the issue is you're not even claiming Isiah was a better player than Barkley in 1990.

That is only an “issue” if five months into the project you still think the purpose is for each person to post who they thought were the five best players.

What's next, should I rank Bird for his 1984 season this year, because such a great team as the Celtics should get more 'representation' over the decade?

Did this suddenly become “Retro Player of the Decade”?

What exactly makes you think this would be appropriate. Please, point it out to me. Would love to see it.

What if I wanted to vote for Bird so that popular players were more 'represented',

Oh, were you not doing that with your fleeting focus on MVP results?

or because I felt players who were 'legendary' needed more 'representation'?

Depends, did they have a legendary season that year?

[One_and_Done]

I guess the issue is you're not even claiming Isiah was a better player than Barkley in 1990.

What's next, should I rank Bird for his 1984 season this year, because such a great team as the Celtics should get more 'representation' over the decade? What if I wanted to vote for Bird so that popular players were more 'represented', or because I felt players who were 'legendary' needed more 'representation'?

what part of player of the year do you find confusing

I feel like I'm on crazy pills here.

Enigma said he does not believe Isiah Thomas was a top 5 player in the 1989-90 season... but he is voting for him anyway, because 'his team won the title, so they should have some representation'. Is this the vote for the best team, or the best player?

He does not believe Isiah had one of the 5 best seasons, but is voting for him anyway. That's the issue here.

[AEnigma]

Is this the vote for the best team, or the best player?

Neither, it is a vote for the best season.

And since you edited after I gave that reply…

He does not believe Isiah had one of the 5 best seasons, but is voting for him anyway. That's the issue here.

I am rapidly losing patience with your abject refusal to ever read what anyone writes and insistence on substituting your own invention of what they said.

[One_and_Done]

Is this the vote for the best team, or the best player?

Neither, it is a vote for the best season.

And since you edited after I gave that reply…

He does not believe Isiah had one of the 5 best seasons, but is voting for him anyway. That's the issue here.

I am rapidly losing patience with your abject refusal to ever read what anyone writes and insistence on substituting your own invention of what they said.

I'm happy to leave it there, but I have not misrepresented you. I will cite your post below and leave it to the fair mindedness of readers to make their own determination.

I have repeatedly said I feel the winning team should be represented on my ballot. No, Isiah is not better than Barkley, and sure, Barkley with a… mm… ~48-win cast probably could have won the title this year. And if you do not care at all what happens in the season, then no, I would not expect you to vote for Isiah. But Isiah was not so far down my list (fringe top ten) that I would outright exclude him as the representative of that season’s eventual winner. Neither was Hayes in 1978, Gus Williams in 1979, Ben Wallace in 2004, Tim Duncan in 2014, or Isiah last year (when he performed a lot worse in the postseason).

[AEnigma]

Is this the vote for the best team, or the best player?

Neither, it is a vote for the best season.

And since you edited after I gave that reply…

He does not believe Isiah had one of the 5 best seasons, but is voting for him anyway. That's the issue here.

I am rapidly losing patience with your abject refusal to ever read what anyone writes and insistence on substituting your own invention of what they said.

I'm happy to leave it there, but I have not misrepresented you. I will cite your post below and leave it to the fair mindedness of readers to make their own determination.

I have repeatedly said I feel the winning team should be represented on my ballot. No, Isiah is not better than Barkley, and sure, Barkley with a… mm… ~48-win cast probably could have won the title this year. And if you do not care at all what happens in the season, then no, I would not expect you to vote for Isiah. But Isiah was not so far down my list (fringe top ten) that I would outright exclude him as the representative of that season’s eventual winner. Neither was Hayes in 1978, Gus Williams in 1979, Ben Wallace in 2004, Tim Duncan in 2014, or Isiah last year (when he performed a lot worse in the postseason).

So kind of you. Allow me to add my own emphasis, and add in what you for some reason decided to exclude.

Barkley can be a “better” player and not have a season inherently more deserving of award recognition.

Consider this a formal project warning. Familiarise yourself with the actual terms of the project and stop derailing, or I will suspend or even remove you as a voter.

[OhayoKD]

I guess the issue is you're not even claiming Isiah was a better player than Barkley in 1990.

What's next, should I rank Bird for his 1984 season this year, because such a great team as the Celtics should get more 'representation' over the decade? What if I wanted to vote for Bird so that popular players were more 'represented', or because I felt players who were 'legendary' needed more 'representation'?

what part of player of the year do you find confusing

I feel like I'm on crazy pills here.

Enigma said he does not believe Isiah Thomas was a top 5 player in the 1989-90 season... but he is voting for him anyway, because 'his team won the title, so they should have some representation'. Is this the vote for the best team, or the best player?

Would you kindly bold where the word "best" is in the phrase "Player of the Year"?

[Djoker]

Michael Jordan

Playoffs - 16 games

ON: +7.7
OFF: -24.8
ON-OFF: +32.5

Charles Barkley

Regular Season - 82 games

ON: +7.0
OFF: -1.3
ON-OFF: +8.3

Playoffs - 10 games

ON: -3.0
OFF: -22.0
ON-OFF: +19.0

Barkley had a terrific season and the Sixers actually had a #2 offense and a higher SRS than the Bulls even though the Bulls had home court so the ECSF matchup between them was supposed to be a close series and was seen as a big matchup. The Bulls were considered slight -160 favorites. The series didn't end up being very close with the Bulls winning in five by 7.6 points per game. However, Barkley still played well and will definitely make my ballot. I know a lot of people will give him more love in 1993 but to me circa 1990 was his peak and pretty clearly so.

[70sFan]

Michael Jordan

Playoffs - 16 games

ON: +7.7
OFF: -24.8
ON-OFF: +32.5

Charles Barkley

Regular Season - 82 games

ON: +7.0
OFF: -1.3
ON-OFF: +8.3

Playoffs - 10 games

ON: -3.0
OFF: -22.0
ON-OFF: +19.0

Barkley had a terrific season and the Sixers actually had a #2 offense and a higher SRS than the Bulls even though the Bulls had home court so the ECSF matchup between them was supposed to be a close series and was seen as a big matchup. The Bulls were considered slight -160 favorites. The series didn't end up being very close with the Bulls winning in five by 7.6 points per game. However, Barkley still played well and will definitely make my ballot. I know a lot of people will give him more love in 1993 but to me circa 1990 was his peak and pretty clearly so.

Barkley definitely peaked around 1990, he was visibly worse on both ends of the court in 1993.

[ShaqAttac]

MJ
goes crazy in pos and takes champs to 7. He #1 easy.

IT
beats MJ and wins chip.

MAGIC
wins mvp and drops 30 vs suns but an L is an L. Lakers choke big so magic cant be top 2.

HAKEEM
Great D good O, chokes vs LA

EWING
Great D and good O. drops almost 30 and beats Bird. Loses to the champs but drops 27 on good ts so prob not on him.


i forgot about Dream so HM for chuck.

BARKELY
scores a bunch and beats cavs team mj is hyped for beating. Cooked by MJ tho.

[Djoker]

What are everyone's thoughts on Hakeem vs. Robinson vs. Ewing in terms of overall impact? I'm leaning Ewing above the other two but not so confident in that.

[tsherkin]

MAGIC
wins mvp and drops 30 vs suns but an L is an L. Lakers choke big so magic cant be top 2.

First season without KAJ. James Worthy didn't show up at all.

Laying that on Magic, who posted 30.2 / 5.8 / 12.2 on 61.6% TS, seems a little odd. Magic dropped 43 in BOTH games 4 and 5, but Worthy was 5/21 and Scott 2/8, Woolridge 2/6. Then in the closeout, Worthy was 5/19, Cooper was 2/6 and the Suns flipped the script on them on the offensive boards.

Trying to make that about Magic is an odd take.

[AEnigma]

What are everyone's thoughts on Hakeem vs. Robinson vs. Ewing in terms of overall impact? I'm leaning Ewing above the other two but not so confident in that.

Hakeem securely the best defender; as I said in my voting post, it was probably the greatest post-Russell defensive season anyone ever had. However, this season he is also the worst scorer and — with none of the three offering too much as playmakers (Ewing the most undersold by traditional playmaking indicators this year imo) — offensive player. Ewing is similarly secure as the best scorer and in turn best offensive player, and he also has the most impressive postseason and plays the most minutes. Win totals for each reflect the casts more than any significant separation between players.

Postseason I see as so blatantly favouring Ewing that I do not really care if someone wants to argue, or some hypothetically complete RAPM “revealed”, that he had the least “impactful” regular season despite playing the most minutes, and my voting post goes into that.

I do not think Robinson is particularly close to Hakeem this year, but in the absence of any stronger means of impact assessment, I understand how people could be willing to side with the player who won more regular season games and went farther in the postseason. Like I said previously, the unfortunate penalty of being stuck on bad teams is that proper recognition becomes much more difficult. Nevertheless, I would like to highlight an aspect of those cast disparities which is often overlooked (beyond the more obvious fact that Terry Cummings is by far the best co-star any of these three had, as he yet again proves in the postseason).

1990 Robinson with Maurice Cheeks: 33-17 (54-win pace)
1990 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 22-9 (58-win pace)

1991 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 43-15 (61-win pace)
1991 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 12-12

1992 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 29-15 (54-win pace)
1992 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 13-11

1990-92 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 94-39 (58-win pace)
1991-92 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 25-23 (42.7-win pace)

1993 Robinson with Avery Johnson: 47-28 (51.4-win pace)
1993 Robinson without Avery Johnson: 2-5

I put those numbers out not solely to emphasise how much teams rely on having a capable lead initiator… but also to contrast what happens when Robinson settles into his peak. 1994 Robinson goes 54-26 essentially without a point guard after being below .500 across the prior three years in that situation. That is why his regular season peak is so highly regarded, and I say that not because it is some secret that 1994-96 Robinson is a more valuable player than 1990-93 Robinson, but because people need to understand the breadth of the gap here. We should not act as if the worst or second-worst year of Robinson’s prime would have seen anywhere near the same success if he were relying on the rapidly fading remnants of Sleepy Floyd to orchestrate the offence. Hakeem’s record this year is a 1987 Jordan-esque 41-41. Next year, he has an extremely similar season across the board… but the Rockets added legendary point guard Kenny Smith, and Hakeem’s record with him jumps up to 34-18 (53.6-win pace). Same story in 1992 (40-29 with Smith). Point guards matter a lot, and Hakeem having by far the worst situation of these three bigs is the main reason his total “success” lags behind them this year.

[Special_Puppy]

What are everyone's thoughts on Hakeem vs. Robinson vs. Ewing in terms of overall impact? I'm leaning Ewing above the other two but not so confident in that.

FWIW Historical RAPTOR has it as Robinson>Hakeem>Ewing

BPM has it as Robinson>Ewing>Hakeem

So I'd probably say Robinson>Ewing=Hakeem?

[Djoker]

What are everyone's thoughts on Hakeem vs. Robinson vs. Ewing in terms of overall impact? I'm leaning Ewing above the other two but not so confident in that.

Hakeem securely the best defender; as I said in my voting post, it was probably the greatest post-Russell defensive season anyone ever had. However, this season he is also the worst scorer and — with none of the three offering too much as playmakers (Ewing the most undersold by traditional playmaking indicators this year imo) — offensive player. Ewing is similarly secure as the best scorer and in turn best offensive player, and he also has the most impressive postseason and plays the most minutes. Win totals for each reflect the casts more than any significant separation between players.

Postseason I see as so blatantly favouring Ewing that I do not really care if someone wants to argue, or some hypothetically complete RAPM “revealed”, that he had the least “impactful” regular season despite playing the most minutes, and my voting post goes into that.

I do not think Robinson is particularly close to Hakeem this year, but in the absence of any stronger means of impact assessment, I understand how people could be willing to side with the player who won more regular season games and went farther in the postseason. Like I said previously, the unfortunate penalty of being stuck on bad teams is that proper recognition becomes much more difficult. Nevertheless, I would like to highlight an aspect of those cast disparities which is often overlooked (beyond the more obvious fact that Terry Cummings is by far the best co-star any of these three had, as he yet again proves in the postseason).

1990 Robinson with Maurice Cheeks: 33-17 (54-win pace)
1990 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 22-9 (58-win pace)

1991 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 43-15 (61-win pace)
1991 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 12-12

1992 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 29-15 (54-win pace)
1992 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 13-11

1990-92 Robinson with Rod Strickland: 94-39 (58-win pace)
1991-92 Robinson without Rod Strickland: 25-23 (42.7-win pace)

1993 Robinson with Avery Johnson: 47-28 (51.4-win pace)
1993 Robinson without Avery Johnson: 2-5

I put those numbers out not solely to emphasise how much teams rely on having a capable lead initiator… but also to contrast what happens when Robinson settles into his peak. 1994 Robinson goes 54-26 essentially without a point guard after being below .500 across the prior three years in that situation. That is why his regular season peak is so highly regarded, and I say that not because it is some secret that 1994-96 Robinson is a more valuable player than 1990-93 Robinson, but because people need to understand the breadth of the gap here. We should not act as if the worst or second-worst year of Robinson’s prime would have seen anywhere near the same success if he were relying on the rapidly fading remnants of Sleepy Floyd to orchestrate the offence. Hakeem’s record this year is a 1987 Jordan-esque 41-41. Next year, he has an extremely similar season across the board… but the Rockets added legendary point guard Kenny Smith, and Hakeem’s record with him jumps up to 34-18 (53.6-win pace). Same story in 1992 (40-29 with Smith). Point guards matter a lot, and Hakeem having by far the worst situation of these three bigs is the main reason his total “success” lags behind them this year.

Thank you for a detailed response. I agree with just about all of your takes here.

I too think Ewing is the best offensive player of the three and Hakeem the best defensive player for this particular season. Robinson I kind of see as worse than Hakeem in general but he gets a bit of a boost just for having a better PS and taking his team further. So Ewing is going ahead of the other two (his PS is much better) and honestly gun to my head I would go Hakeem over Robinson. In 1991, I will go with Robinson as Hakeem misses a bunch of games and probably in 1992 as well. But this season Ewing > Hakeem > Robinson. Although it's possible that I may take someone like Malone or Isiah for the #5 spot on the ballot over Hakeem. This season is really a lot of names to sift through.

The impact data in latter seasons (we have full Pollack plus minus for 1994-1996) sees Robinson as clearly superior to Hakeem. And it may well be true in the regular season. However, I don't believe it for a second when the playoffs roll around. Hakeem was a far superior playoff performer. He took it up like two notches while Robinson went down a notch.

[penbeast0]

I think even this season Robinson has an edge on Hakeem; the difference between this season and career is that there is not a PS Hakeem edge to shift that edge the other way.

[falcolombardi]

Robinson has a impressive regular season, but without going further than second round it would be hard for me to say his team success overcomes hakeem being a clearly superior player, albeit i totally would understand anyone who votes robinson over hakeem this season based on project parameters of "player of the season"

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Magic Johnson
2 - Michael Jordan
3 - Hakeem
4 - Kevin Johnson
5 - Isiah Thomas

So in 89 Magic averages 20 points vs the Suns on like 60 percent true-shooting and he's #1. In 90 he averages 30 points on 61 percent true shooting but he loses and that makes him #2 or #3? I think his teammates not showing up or the team getting work is kind of a more likely reason than Magic being worse.

It seems like Magic's team was alot worse and maybe it wasn't even that good in 88 to start. So the Lakers winning 64 games seems like a kind of crazy carry job and his stats are better than they were in 88. And then his stats are way better in the playoffs. Sorry that still seems like #1 to me.

MJ is kind of obvious. I don't think Hakeem can score 17 in the playoffs and be higher than MJ in a year he almost makes the finals scoring 30+.

KJ with 11 assists and 22 points which is some Magic-like stats and leads to the 3rd best offense and then makes a pretty impressive playoff run where they take out the 64-win Lakers in 5.

Isiah gets pretty close to 10 assists and 20 points which is also some Magic like stats and that mattered enough to win 59 games and another ring. Just seems wrong to not include him and people who don't believe in him haven't really said why. The offense and his stats seem like just a worse KJ but I'm not leaving him off.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Hakeem
2 - Ewing
3 - Robinson

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Magic
2 - Jordan
3 - Kevin Johnson

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Michael Jordan - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Just another huge RS and PS by Jordan except the Bulls are now also a contender-level team. Unlike prior years, he has a great instead of just merely good series against the Bad Boy Pistons as well. Nothing to really nitpick here. Not only the best individual player but also the closest to winning the title out of the top talents. GOAT scorer with high volume playmaking means he's the best offensive player in the game and maybe the best defensive guard at the same time. Averaged 33.6/6.9/6.3 on 60.6 %TS (+6.9 rTS) in the RS then 36.7/7.2/6.8 on 59.2 %TS (+6.2 rTS) in the PS.

2. Magic Johnson - 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. Magic had another really strong RS leading a team with the top record in the league and the #1 offense but then they got upset in the PS by a pretender in the Suns. Magic still played brilliantly well in the loss which ensures that he's top 2 behind only Jordan. Averaged 22.3/6.6/11.5 on 62.2 %TS (+8.5 rTS) in the RS then 25.2/6.3/12.8 on 59.8 %TS (+8.0 rTS) in the PS.

3. Patrick Ewing - 1st Team All-NBA. This season was Ewing's statistical peak and his scoring reached a level he never quite matched otherwise. The Knicks roster was unspectacular but Ewing led his team past the talented Celtics and gave the champion Pistons a good fight playing really well throughout the PS. The big man also brought significant value on the defensive end so despite similar team results to the next guy on the list, his two-way dominance gives him the nod. Averaged 28.6/10.9/2.2 on 59.9 %TS (+6.2 rTS) in the RS then 29.4/10.5/3.1 on 57.9 %TS (+6.1 rTS) in the PS.

4. Charles Barkley - 1st Team All-NBA. Offensive maestro for the last few years now. With Rick Mahorn joining the team, the SIxers finally had a defensive anchor letting Barkley play more SF and focus on offense. The Sixers were the #2 offense in the league showing his impact. Averaged 25.2/11.5/3.9 on 66.1 %TS (+12.4 rTS) in the RS then 24.7/15.5/4.3 on 58.9 %TS (+4.8 rTS) in the PS.

5. Isiah Thomas - The final spot was a tough choice but except Isiah, the other candidates on this list had far lesser team success and even though they are better individual players in a vacuum, accomplishments still count. Isiah had a much better PS than in 1989, was the best player on the champion Pistons, and won Finals MVP dominating the very good Blazers team. At the end of the day, he did enough to make the ballot in a year in which the guys on the HM did nothing of note. Isiah had a penchant for showing up in the biggest of games and it was on full display this year. He averaged 18.4/3.8/9.4 on 50.1 %TS (-3.6 rTS) in the RS then 20.5/5.5/8.2 on 56.0 %TS (+2.1 rTS) in the PS.

HM:

Hakeem Olajuwon - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. I just hate his PS averaging 18 ppg on poor efficiency. Great player on ability and team didn't have talent but still went absolutely nowhere.

David Robinson - 3rd Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Hell of a rookie year but I see him as inferior to Hakeem and he didn't make the ballot so neither will DRob.

Karl Malone - 1st Team All-NBA. Huge statistical RS with historic big man scoring but poor PS and lost in the 1st round.

Kevin Johnson - A bit weaker than the prior year in both RS and PS moves him off the ballot.

OPOY

1. Michael Jordan

2. Magic Johnson

3. Charles Barkley

See POY for explanation.

DPOY

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - Anchored the #1 defense while leading the league in both rebounds and blocks. Just insane horizontal defensive game as well. One of the GOAT defenders at his peak on defense.

2. David Robinson - Rookie who made 2nd Team All-Defense. Anchored the #2 defense. Just a scary combination of length and athleticism made him a monster on D.

3. Patrick Ewing - The Knicks pre-Riley aren't yet a defensive dynasty but Ewing was an elite paint protector.