Retro Player of the Year 2007-08 UPDATE — Lebron James

[DirtyDez]

Yet Kobe played substantially better against the Spurs than Paul did.

The Spurs put everything they had into the Hornets series. It was the swan song for their older role players; Bowen, Horry, Barry etc..

The 08’ Hornets had a lowkey perfect lineup and was kinda ahead of its time.

CP3
Mo Peet
Peja
D-West
T Chandler

No bench and Byron Scott was the difference. Isn’t 08’ Paul considered the gold standard PG season of that generation? He basically dominated every aspect of the game pertaining to his position.

[Special_Puppy]

Yet Kobe played substantially better against the Spurs than Paul did.

Can you elaborate why you think that? Because at first glance, it looks like CP3 played better against the Spurs

[AEnigma]

Scoring is obvious on its face even before keeping in mind that Kobe was receiving tougher coverage (both in general and from Bowen specifically) and that he had a much more significant spacing effect.

Kobe was also much better defensively. At this point in his career, Paul was mostly just good at forcing steals and did not handle Parker well at all as a primary assignment, while Kobe was more consistently disruptive and versatile.

Paul was the better creator, but if you think creation value is so overwhelmingly valuable that it erases those other advantages for Kobe, then most top end point guards should probably be above top end scorers for you. Regardless, the Lakers still did run their offence significantly through Kobe, and while I do not think his creations were as valuable as Paul’s were, I think the team’s offensive struggles can only mildly be attributed to that disparity — especially with Pau, who was outright stifled by Duncan in a relatively inexcusable way. David West impressed a lot more than Pau did at basically everything other than playmaking out of the post (where he was still at least comparable).

I think if you are truly enamoured with Paul as a playmaker — I am not, but many are — you could call it reasonably close through five respective games (which the Lakers won 4-1 and the Hornets led 3-2, but could have been 3-2 for the Lakers as well with slightly worse shooting variance in Game 1). However, Paul did not play to that level in the final two games, and that has to weigh against him seeing as it removed any real hope his team had of closing out the series.

[OhayoKD]

He posted career highs in rebounds and blocks. I don't think his season was statistically better than 2006 though he did play better defense. And yes I was clearly referring to team performance when saying it was disappointing. The injuries are there but 39-win pace is still really poor for POY purposes. And I think Lebron became Lebron in 2009. He really took a huge leap.

Also in fg%, tied for high in apg and in terms of bpm it was by far his highest to date and actually tied for the 4th highest of his career. Having watched a ton of early LeBron I think he'd obviously turned a corner that year. Also when you cling to calling them a 39 win team by srs despite the fact they actually won 45 it comes across as a bit disingenuous. Do w/e you want though, its just calling his 08 season disappointing when by probably any metric you can find it is like top 40 all time seemed strange to me and then also when the team result is so obviously tied to injuries. It was similar to the season Jokic had a couple of seasons ago where his team was totally depleted with injuries and he still led them to 48 wins.

The real disingenuous bit is gnoring that rating was in part generated by a bunch of games the Cavs were -13 without Lebron

[Lost92Bricks]

Yet Kobe played substantially better against the Spurs than Paul did.

Paul's series against the Spurs is better.

[OhayoKD]

Voting Post

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. Lebron James

Kobe has a generational western conference run which is just enough to overcome Lebron being the better rs player and better against Boston. Paul has a very Good RS. Fine in defeat to the Spurs

4. Kevin Garnett

Leads title-winner on back of historic defense. Low minutes and an unusually weak 08 signal casts some doubts though extending it to 08/09 helps a fair bit.

5. Tim Duncan

Exiting his prime now.

[TheGOATRises007]

Not a voter, but as more time passes by, I think Kobe peaked in 2008.

His run in the playoffs prior to Boston was actually incredible. Didn't appreciate it until a while ago.

[lessthanjake]

Not a voter, but as more time passes by, I think Kobe peaked in 2008.

His run in the playoffs prior to Boston was actually incredible. Didn't appreciate it until a while ago.

Honestly, I think Kobe 2006-2010 was just a very impressive five-year span. He was not very good in any of the three Finals he played in those years, but was very impressive otherwise in the playoffs IMO. Meanwhile, I thought that even making the playoffs with those 2006 and 2007 teams was impressive, while obviously in the subsequent three years he led the Lakers to some great regular seasons (particularly in 2008 and 2009). It’s this span that really cements him having a relatively high ranking for me in terms of all-time ranking (I have him just outside my top 10). I was someone who always thought he was overrated, but he changed my mind a good bit during this time period.

[One_and_Done]

KG per 100 stats: 30/15/6, 588 TS%, 118 Ortg/94 Drtg
Lebron per 100 stats: 40/10/10, 568 TS%, 116 Ortg/104 Drtg
CP3 per 100 stats: 30/6/16, 576 TS%, 125 Ortg/103 Drtg
Nash per 100 stats: 25/5/16, 641 TS%, 121 Ortg/112 Drtg
Kobe per 100 stats: 36/8/7, 576 TS%, 115 Ortg/105 Drtg

I think it’s very clear Kobe has the worst stats out of any of those guys, Kone leads in nothing; he wasn’t the best offensive player, and certainly wasn’t close to the best defensive player. Nor was he the “best of both”, which was clearly either CP3, KG, or Lebron. But let’s say you are not interested in these sorts of stats, or advanced stats either (which basically never favour Kobe). Let’s say you are a person focused on wins and rings.

Did Kobe win the title? No. Did Kobe’s team win the most games? No. Did Kobe have the worst support cast? No, he had one of the top 2 support casts along with the Celtics. Was he giving his team the most lift? No. The Lakers were 6-5 in games without Pau or Bynum. Without those guys, this would have been another 40+ win season and 1st round exit for Kobe. Meanwhile Lebron is carrying an absolute trash team to an epic 7 game loss to the eventual champs.

If you value “honouring the winners” or some such, your vote should be KG. If you value advanced stats, your vote should be KG. If you value the best player, your vote should be Lebron. If you value the guy who was giving his team the most lift, your vote should be CP3 or Lebron or maybe KG. I don’t know what the logical pathway is to vote Kobe.

Too much focus is being put on ppg. Here's a simplistic way of looking at it. Let's say the average assist leads to 2.4 points. That is a reasonable ballpark. Here's how many points each player above generated per 100.

Lebron: 64pp100
CP3: 69pp100
Nash: 63pp100
Kobe: 53pp100
KG: 44pp100

That's a simplistic approach of course, in reality CP3 and Nash and Lebron were generating even more points with hockey assists and missed shots from bad Cavs players, etc, but it illustrates how Kobe really has no offensive advantage at all here.

[Homer38]

The lakers were in the first seed before the Gasol trade...Bynum was a good young player at this time but he was not a all-star too.Kwayne Brown was just a dumpster fire before the Gasol trade.....Maybe Kobe was not the best player but not in the top 5?...Are you kidding me!

[Cavsfansince84]

Not a voter, but as more time passes by, I think Kobe peaked in 2008.

His run in the playoffs prior to Boston was actually incredible. Didn't appreciate it until a while ago.

Honestly, I think Kobe 2006-2010 was just a very impressive five-year span. He was not very good in any of the three Finals he played in those years, but was very impressive otherwise in the playoffs IMO. Meanwhile, I thought that even making the playoffs with those 2006 and 2007 teams was impressive, while obviously in the subsequent three years he led the Lakers to some great regular seasons (particularly in 2008 and 2009). It’s this span that really cements him having a relatively high ranking for me in terms of all-time ranking (I have him just outside my top 10). I was someone who always thought he was overrated, but he changed my mind a good bit during this time period.

I'm a little perplexed why that 5 yr period did much to change your opinion on Kobe tbh. 06-07 really did nothing to change my opinion of him. It was just Kobe turning up his shot volume as much as he could(at the expense of defense which would be expected) on weak teams, not really doing much in the playoffs outside of nearly upsetting the Suns before the infamous game 7 where he refused to shoot. 08 showed he could actually lead a contender without Shaq so that was something though the 40 pt loss in game 6 to lose the finals again made me still question his leadership to some degree. Keeping in mind that the Lakers were sort of favored going into those finals. The MVP was more of a career achievement award than anything else I think. Which leads to 09/10 which is where he proved he could get it done as the best player and have a couple of very good to great finals.
So for that I give him credit but if anything changed my opinion on him it would just be those last two years.

[One_and_Done]

The lakers were in the first seed before the Gasol trade...Bynum was a good young player at this time but he was not a all-star too.Kwayne Brown was just a dumpster fire before the Gasol trade.....Maybe Kobe was not the best player but not in the top 5?...Are you kidding me!

And if they'd kept playing at that pace by the end of the year they'd have been the 7th seed in the West.

[Homer38]

The lakers were in the first seed before the Gasol trade...Bynum was a good young player at this time but he was not a all-star too.Kwayne Brown was just a dumpster fire before the Gasol trade.....Maybe Kobe was not the best player but not in the top 5?...Are you kidding me!

And if they'd kept playing at that pace by the end of the year they'd have been the 7th seed in the West.

It don't work like that...

[One_and_Done]

The lakers were in the first seed before the Gasol trade...Bynum was a good young player at this time but he was not a all-star too.Kwayne Brown was just a dumpster fire before the Gasol trade.....Maybe Kobe was not the best player but not in the top 5?...Are you kidding me!

And if they'd kept playing at that pace by the end of the year they'd have been the 7th seed in the West.

It don't work like that...

How does it work? Teams start hot/cold, and their average over the season is how good they were. We could assume the Lakers were playing over their heads too, or that other teams had tougher schedules, but I have assumed they would have kept up their 30-16 pace all year... and that would have been good for 7th.

[Homer38]

And if they'd kept playing at that pace by the end of the year they'd have been the 7th seed in the West.

It don't work like that...

How does it work? Teams start hot/cold, and their average over the season is how good they were. We could assume the Lakers were playing over their heads too, or that other teams had tougher schedules, but I have assumed they would have kept up their 30-16 pace all year... and that would have been good for 7th.

In a conference a team did not make the playoffs at 48 wins....of course the lakers lost several close game with kwayne brown as center but outside of that stretch,they were at the top in the entire year

[One_and_Done]

It don't work like that...

How does it work? Teams start hot/cold, and their average over the season is how good they were. We could assume the Lakers were playing over their heads too, or that other teams had tougher schedules, but I have assumed they would have kept up their 30-16 pace all year... and that would have been good for 7th.

In a conference a team did not make the playoffs at 48 wins....of course the lakers lost several close game with kwayne brown as center but outside of that stretch,they were at the top in the entire year

Who is at the top often ebbs and flows during the year, due to factors like injuries, strength of schedule, and teams playing hot/cold. The Lakers were first at that particular moment, but they would not have stayed at first for long without the Pau trade which saw them play at a blistering 22-5 pace. If they kept playing at their regular pace they finish 7th overall. That's very important context, because nobody sensible should think they were going anything like 22-5 without Pau.

[Homer38]

How does it work? Teams start hot/cold, and their average over the season is how good they were. We could assume the Lakers were playing over their heads too, or that other teams had tougher schedules, but I have assumed they would have kept up their 30-16 pace all year... and that would have been good for 7th.

In a conference a team did not make the playoffs at 48 wins....of course the lakers lost several close game with kwayne brown as center but outside of that stretch,they were at the top in the entire year

Who is at the top often ebbs and flows during the year, due to factors like injuries, strength of schedule, and teams playing hot/cold. The Lakers were first at that particular moment, but they would not have stayed at first for long without the Pau trade which saw them play at a blistering 22-5 pace. If they kept playing at their regular pace they finish 7th overall. That's very important context, because nobody sensible should think they were going anything like 22-5 without Pau.

With kwayne brown as center I agree but if Bynum would stay healthy,it was a great team and bynun was not gasol....

[Homer38]

But it don't matter...Kobe not in the top 5 is terrible and if he is not in 2009 this is rock bottom...

[One_and_Done]

In a conference a team did not make the playoffs at 48 wins....of course the lakers lost several close game with kwayne brown as center but outside of that stretch,they were at the top in the entire year

Who is at the top often ebbs and flows during the year, due to factors like injuries, strength of schedule, and teams playing hot/cold. The Lakers were first at that particular moment, but they would not have stayed at first for long without the Pau trade which saw them play at a blistering 22-5 pace. If they kept playing at their regular pace they finish 7th overall. That's very important context, because nobody sensible should think they were going anything like 22-5 without Pau.

With kwayne brown as center I agree but if Bynum would stay healthy,it was a great team and bynun was not gasol....

You can't assume 100% health for a team. Those other guys had starters miss games too. You started by pointing out that the Lakers were first in the West. That's true, they were 30-16... and continuing at that pace they would have been 7th.

The Suns won 55 this year despite the dreadful Shaq trade, if we extend out their record pre-trade they would be first in the West. You can't make only favourable assumptions to benefit Kobe, and ignore all the other teams injuries and bad context. Ray, Rondo, KG, and Posey missed a combined 35 games, do they get a wins bump too? Parker and Manu missed a combined 21 games.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Lakers played like a 53-win team (+4.1 SRS) before the Gasol trade and then at a whopping 66-win pace (+9.7 SRS) after the trade. Kobe was the best player on the team who both carried a scoring load and facilitated and in turn led a dominant +5.5 rORtg. His PS run through the Western Conference was stuff of legend dominating in three consecutive series against good teams with LA posting a +6.8 rORtg. In the Finals he did struggle a bit which opens the door for others. Kobe shot inefficiently at -0.3 rTS against the Celtics but that isn't horrible. It's his supporting cast that struggled a lot more with Gasol playing far below his ability. The injuries to Bynum and Ariza especially hurt the Lakers given the Celtics' depth and physicality. Averaged 28.3/6.3/5.4 on +3.6 rTS in the RS then 30.1/5.7/5.6 on +4.9 rTS in the PS.

2. Kevin Garnett- 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Best player on the best team in the league. Boston had a monster 65-win pace (+9.31 SRS) season largely on the back of KG's dominant defense. Not only was he the principal paint protector but his horizontal defense game with crisp rotations and backline communication made them at times impregnable on that end posting a historic -8.6 rDRtg in the RS. All this while KG was also an all-star caliber player on offense. In the PS, Boston regressed quite a bit defensively with -5.7 rDRtg but they improved slightly offensively. They took a while to get going in the PS suffering a serious scare against the Cavs in the 2nd round before turning it on against the Pistons and Lakers where they needed to be at their best. Pierce took the Finals MVP and was the go-to isolation scorer especially late in games but to me, KG was clearly the best player for the Celtics because of his two-way impact. Averaged 18.8/9.2/3.4 on +4.8 rTS in the RS then 20.4/10.5/3.3 on +1.1 rTS in the PS.

3. Chris Paul - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. He carried a decent (wouldn't even say good) roster to 57-win pace (+5.46 SRS) in the RS so he has an MVP case. In the PS, he played really well even though they lost to the Spurs. +4.0 rORtg in the RS and +7.8 rORtg in the PS is fantastic with that cast. The little guard was also a disruptive defensive player. Honestly in a vacuum, I think he can be argued as the best player in the NBA this season. That's how good he was and this is his peak season for me. Averaged 21.1/4.0/11.6 on +3.6 rTS in the RS then 24.1/4.9/11.3 on +4.5 rTS in the PS.

4. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. Though somewhat excusable due to various injuries, the Cavs had a rather poor RS playing at a 39-win pace (-0.53 SRS) with a -1.5 rORtg. LBJ himself had a strong season statistically but this felt like a disappointment compared to 2006 and 2007. His PS was also a mixed bag with a strong Wizards series and then a memorable Game 7 against Boston but he also had several really poor games in the Boston series. His series averages vs. the Celtics were 26.7/6.4/7.6 on -2.8 rTS with 5.3 topg. Thanks to defense (+0.8 rORtg, -7.8 rDRtg), the underdog Cavs thrived in the second season and pushed the C's to the brink and overcame those poor performances. At the end of the day, his RS wasn't as good as the three men in front of him and he didn't make up any ground in the PS. Averaged 30.0/7.9/7.2 on +2.8 rTS in the RS then 28.2/7.8/7.6 on -1.1 rTS in the PS.

5. Tim Duncan - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Timmy was still a two-way force but starting to fade and not at his best any more. The Spurs were still a very good team until they ran into a better Lakers team that had their way. Duncan was poor in terms of scoring efficiency in the PS which limits him to barely making the ballot. Push comes to shove, I give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of impact over Dirk/Nash/Deron because of his defense. Averaged 19.3/11.3/2.8 on +0.6 rTS in the RS and 20.2/14.5/3.3 on +4.2 rTS in the RS.

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant - Great scorer and solid facilitator.

2. Chris Paul - Excellent engine on offense with a combo of scoring and playmaking. Very conservative playmaker and composed which is rare for a young PG.

3. Lebron James - Good scorer and playmaker. Team offensive results subpar even for a weak roster.

DPOY

1. Kevin Garnett - 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Anchor on a historically great -8.6 rDRtg Boston defense. Superb D in the PS as well.

2. Tim Duncan - 1st Team All-Defense. Anchor on a great -5.7 rDRtg Spurs defense.

3. Dwight Howard - 2nd Team All-Defense. Still young but super athletic. Fantastic rim protector and rebounder but reads still not on the level of the veteran ahead of him. Magic had a -2.0 rDRtg defense.