Retro Player of the Year 2009-10 — Lebron James

[lessthanjake]

So I think we have a pretty similar situation to last year, but with some crucial differences.

LeBron is the best player in the NBA this year. But Kobe is one of the best few players and won the title while having a good playoffs. So Kobe’s case should be very hard to overcome, and the question is whether LeBron did it.

Only issue(s) here are that a. Kobe by bpm and vorp has his worst rs since 99(compared to 09 which was prob like a top 4 rs for him) b. the Lakers fall from 65 to 57 wins and c. despite placing 3rd in MVP voting he is only 15th in bpm and 10th in vorp and its not like he's one of those players where defense is compensating for box score. I'm guessing his rapm isn't that good either this year. In short, I think he coasted or declined in this rs and despite leading his team to a title this is not a replay of the previous season the way you painted it above. Kobe had a poor rs by his own standards that year.

I did address that in my post. As I said, I think Kobe dropped off in the 2010 RS compared to 2009, and his team did less well in the regular season probably partially as a result. The same is true of LeBron too, but Kobe’s and his team’s drop off was bigger so the regular season gap between the two was actually a bit bigger in 2010 than in 2009 IMO.

That said, it’s actually *not* the case that Kobe’s RAPM that year was weak. In TheBasketballDatabase’s one-year RAPM, Kobe was 7th in 2009 and 9th in 2010. In Engelmann’s PI RAPM, Kobe was 8th in 2009 and 6th in 2010. So basically, RAPM had Kobe holding steady in 2009 and 2010. This isn’t surprising, since Kobe actually had a very good on-off of +12.4 in the 2010 regular season. Of course, one-year RAPM is very noisy, but just wanted to note this since you mentioned your guess about RAPM. If we just looked at RAPM, I don’t know that we’d even assess Kobe to have dropped off at all from 2009 to 2010 in terms of regular season performance. I think when we add box data into our analysis and also look at team results, we start to think he did—which is why my previous post said I thought he dropped off. But it actually is at least ambiguous. I do think that you’re right that coasting had something to do with it, especially when his regular season the next year was better from a box perspective (and the team’s SRS was higher) despite him getting older. I think reasonable minds can differ on how much they let coasting after a title win mitigate a weaker RS, but it is probably a factor here.

[Cavsfansince84]

I did address that in my post. As I said, I think Kobe dropped off in the 2010 RS compared to 2009, and his team did less well in the regular season probably partially as a result. The same is true of LeBron too, but Kobe’s and his team’s drop off was bigger so the regular season gap between the two was actually a bit bigger in 2010 than in 2009 IMO.

That said, it’s actually *not* the case that Kobe’s RAPM that year was weak. In TheBasketballDatabase’s one-year RAPM, Kobe was 7th in 2009 and 9th in 2010. In Engelmann’s PI RAPM, Kobe was 8th in 2009 and 6th in 2010. So basically, RAPM had Kobe holding steady in 2009 and 2010. This isn’t surprising, since Kobe actually had a very good on-off of +12.4 that year. Of course, one-year RAPM is very noisy, but just wanted to note this since you mentioned your guess about RAPM. If we just looked at RAPM, I don’t know that we’d even assess Kobe to have dropped off at all from 2009 to 2010 in terms of regular season performance. I think when we add box data into our analysis and also look at team results, we start to think he did—which is why my previous post said I thought he dropped off. But it actually is at least ambiguous. I do think that you’re right that coasting had something to do with it, especially when his regular season the next year was better from a box perspective (and the team’s SRS was higher) despite him getting older. I think reasonable minds can differ on how much they let coasting after a title win mitigate a weaker RS, but it is probably a factor here.

I mean there was already a very large rs gap between them in 09. In 2010 its huge by poy standards. Kobe being 9th in rapm is pretty much in line with him also being 10th in bpm or vorp which is what I alluded to in my post. So its not really gaining him ground relative to guys above him. His ts add is basically league average this year(+7 vs +67 in 09) despite him getting to the line a pretty good amount. I'd wager his defense also dropped off quite a bit this year as well. So I'll leave it at that. Obviously if you are really high on his playoffs and his team winning the title it can be reason to move him as high as you wish to.

[lessthanjake]

I will also note that Wade has a case here too. He too was better than Kobe in the regular season, but while he didn’t get out of the first round, his performance in that first round loss to the Celtics was actually great—much better than LeBron’s. I see Wade’s case this year as being pretty comparable to LeBron’s case in 2008, except Wade actually played well against the Celtics instead of struggling a lot, so perhaps it’s actually better. Is that enough to be above Kobe leading his team to the title? I don’t think so. But is it enough to be above 2010 LeBron—who was better in the RS but not as good overall in the playoffs? Maybe. I don’t really feel strongly about that one either way, and probably lean towards LeBron, mainly because I think he was better in the RS and I’m not sure how much I care about better playoff performance when the “better” playoff performer nevertheless lost in the first round. In other words, in comparing Wade and LeBron, it feels to me like they both lost so early in the playoffs that the main differentiator should be the RS, in which I’d take LeBron by a decent margin.

[lessthanjake]

I did address that in my post. As I said, I think Kobe dropped off in the 2010 RS compared to 2009, and his team did less well in the regular season probably partially as a result. The same is true of LeBron too, but Kobe’s and his team’s drop off was bigger so the regular season gap between the two was actually a bit bigger in 2010 than in 2009 IMO.

That said, it’s actually *not* the case that Kobe’s RAPM that year was weak. In TheBasketballDatabase’s one-year RAPM, Kobe was 7th in 2009 and 9th in 2010. In Engelmann’s PI RAPM, Kobe was 8th in 2009 and 6th in 2010. So basically, RAPM had Kobe holding steady in 2009 and 2010. This isn’t surprising, since Kobe actually had a very good on-off of +12.4 that year. Of course, one-year RAPM is very noisy, but just wanted to note this since you mentioned your guess about RAPM. If we just looked at RAPM, I don’t know that we’d even assess Kobe to have dropped off at all from 2009 to 2010 in terms of regular season performance. I think when we add box data into our analysis and also look at team results, we start to think he did—which is why my previous post said I thought he dropped off. But it actually is at least ambiguous. I do think that you’re right that coasting had something to do with it, especially when his regular season the next year was better from a box perspective (and the team’s SRS was higher) despite him getting older. I think reasonable minds can differ on how much they let coasting after a title win mitigate a weaker RS, but it is probably a factor here.

I mean there was already a very large rs gap between them in 09. In 2010 its huge by poy standards. Kobe being 9th in rapm is pretty much in line with him also being 10th in bpm or vorp which is what I alluded to in my post. So its not really gaining him ground relative to guys above him. His ts add is basically league average this year(+7 vs +67 in 09) despite him getting to the line a pretty good amount. I'd wager his defense also dropped off quite a bit this year as well. So I'll leave it at that. Obviously if you are really high on his playoffs and his team winning the title it can be reason to move him as high as you wish to.

I get your point, and that’s a big reason why I said I think LeBron was definitely the better player at this point. But when one guy is a superstar who leads his team to a title, and the other loses in the second round while actually being a big reason his team lost, I find it very difficult to justify not taking the guy who won the title for POY purposes. Again, though, if you asked me who was the better player that year, I’d say LeBron for sure. But I don’t think POY is a “best player” vote, though it’s all vague enough that it’s definitely fine if someone treats it that way.

EDIT: Another thing I want to note is that I wouldn’t quite say that being 9th in RAPM is in line with his BPM. Raw single-season RAPM is very noisy, so there’s often random players near the top. Which means that being 9th in RAPM puts you in better standing relative to the rest of the league’s top players than being 9th in BPM does. The only actual notable players ahead of Kobe in TheBasketballDatabase’s RAPM that year were LeBron, Durant, Wade, and Dwight. So I’d say it’s more suggestive of Kobe being around the bottom of the top 5 than top 10. And Engelmann’s PI RAPM having Kobe 6th (behind LeBron, Wade, Nash, Garnett, and Howard) suggests something similar.

[One_and_Done]

Calling Lebron 'the reason they lost', like he was holding back Fat Shaq and Mo Will, is a pretty ridiculous way of describing it.

Lebron had a slightly subpar series vs the Celtics relative to his own high standards, but it was better than Kobe played vs Boston. The Cavs weren't supposed to win that series, it's clear in hindsight just how outgunned Lebron was. It's also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash.

[Cavsfansince84]

I get your point, and that’s a big reason why I said I think LeBron was definitely the better player at this point. But when one guy is a superstar who leads his team to a title, and the other loses in the second round while actually being a big reason his team lost, I find it very difficult to justify not taking the guy who won the title for POY purposes. Again, though, if you asked me who was the better player that year, I’d say LeBron for sure. But I don’t think POY is a “best player” vote, though it’s all vague enough that it’s definitely fine if someone treats it that way.

Ok though I don't think being a superstar or not should really be a valid criteria to begin with but everyone does it their own way. To me this would be analogous to if Tatum led the Celtics to another title this year while Jokic lost in rd 2 and having Tatum ahead in poy rankings. Which some might do but I'm not sure anyone actually would consider doing it. Would you put Tatum ahead in this scenario?

[lessthanjake]

Calling Lebron 'the reason they lost', like he was holding back Fat Shaq and Mo Will, is a pretty ridiculous way of describing it.

Lebron had a slightly subpar series vs the Celtics relative to his own high standards, but it was better than Kobe played vs Boston. The Cavs weren't supposed to win that series, it's clear in hindsight just how outgunned Lebron was. It's also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash.

I think almost anyone who watched the last three games of that series would find it very reasonable to say that LeBron was a significant reason they lost. He was bad!

As for the idea that “[t]he Cavs weren’t supposed to win that series,” the Cavaliers were -480 betting favorites in that series. They actually *were* supposed to win that series. You can say in retrospect you think that wasn’t quite right, but I think it’s a real stretch to act like this was some impossible series. It really was not. It was definitely a very winnable series, and LeBron played badly. There’s theories that it was because of injury or because of Delonte West and his mother or whatever, but regardless of the reason for it, LeBron was bad in the latter half of a winnable series and that’s a huge reason his team was knocked out of the playoffs. I don’t think it’d be at all fair to assess it differently than that.

Also, you say “[i]t’s also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash,” but Wade had no problem doing exactly that against the same defense. This wasn’t some impossible task. LeBron simply collapsed in the middle of a winnable series.

[One_and_Done]

Calling Lebron 'the reason they lost', like he was holding back Fat Shaq and Mo Will, is a pretty ridiculous way of describing it.

Lebron had a slightly subpar series vs the Celtics relative to his own high standards, but it was better than Kobe played vs Boston. The Cavs weren't supposed to win that series, it's clear in hindsight just how outgunned Lebron was. It's also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash.

I think almost anyone who watched the last three games of that series would find it very reasonable to say that LeBron was a significant reason they lost. He was bad!

As for the idea that “[t]he Cavs weren’t supposed to win that series,” the Cavaliers were -480 betting favorites in that series. They actually *were* supposed to win that series. You can say in retrospect you think that wasn’t quite right, but I think it’s a real stretch to act like this was some impossible series. It really was not. It was definitely a very winnable series, and LeBron played badly. There’s theories that it was because of injury or because of Delonte West and his mother or whatever, but regardless of the reason for it, LeBron was bad in the latter half of a winnable series and that’s a huge reason his team was knocked out of the playoffs. I don’t think it’d be at all fair to assess it differently than that.

Also, you say “[i]t’s also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash,” but Wade had no problem doing exactly that against the same defense. This wasn’t some impossible task. LeBron simply collapsed in the middle of a winnable series.

It really wasn't a winnable series. Oddsmakers were giving the Cavs good odds because of how impressive they were in the RS, but in hindsight that was just Lebron making a bad team overachieve. When the playoffs roll around your weaknesses as a team get exposed as teams scout and game plan against you. The Celtics were also not taking the RS too seriously for understandable reasons.

[ceoofkobefans]

So I think we have a pretty similar situation to last year, but with some crucial differences.

LeBron is the best player in the NBA this year. But Kobe is one of the best few players and won the title while having a good playoffs. So Kobe’s case should be very hard to overcome, and the question is whether LeBron did it.

Only issue(s) here are that a. Kobe by bpm and vorp has his worst rs since 99(compared to 09 which was prob like a top 4 rs for him) b. the Lakers fall from 65 to 57 wins and c. despite placing 3rd in MVP voting he is only 15th in bpm and 10th in vorp and its not like he's one of those players where defense is compensating for box score. I'm guessing his rapm isn't that good either this year. In short, I think he coasted or declined in this rs and despite leading his team to a title this is not a replay of the previous season the way you painted it above. Kobe had a poor rs by his own standards that year.

I did address that in my post. As I said, I think Kobe dropped off in the 2010 RS compared to 2009, and his team did less well in the regular season probably partially as a result. The same is true of LeBron too, but Kobe’s and his team’s drop off was bigger so the regular season gap between the two was actually a bit bigger in 2010 than in 2009 IMO.

That said, it’s actually *not* the case that Kobe’s RAPM that year was weak. In TheBasketballDatabase’s one-year RAPM, Kobe was 7th in 2009 and 9th in 2010. In Engelmann’s PI RAPM, Kobe was 8th in 2009 and 6th in 2010. So basically, RAPM had Kobe holding steady in 2009 and 2010. This isn’t surprising, since Kobe actually had a very good on-off of +12.4 in the 2010 regular season. Of course, one-year RAPM is very noisy, but just wanted to note this since you mentioned your guess about RAPM. If we just looked at RAPM, I don’t know that we’d even assess Kobe to have dropped off at all from 2009 to 2010 in terms of regular season performance. I think when we add box data into our analysis and also look at team results, we start to think he did—which is why my previous post said I thought he dropped off. But it actually is at least ambiguous. I do think that you’re right that coasting had something to do with it, especially when his regular season the next year was better from a box perspective (and the team’s SRS was higher) despite him getting older. I think reasonable minds can differ on how much they let coasting after a title win mitigate a weaker RS, but it is probably a factor here.

havent read the entire post but kobe was 5th in thinking basketball's APM (.2 from being 3rd) and was 3rd in 2010

[homecourtloss]

1. LeBron. He was almost as good as he was in 2009 but 2009 is the highest peak ever so it’s impossible to stay at that level. The playoffs could’ve been better but the elbow injury and the absolutely terrible supporting cast in a front office that had zero idea about how to put together a team doomed him. PI RAPM is monstrous and head and shoulders above everyone else’s with only Wade being even remotely close
2. Kobe. Good run in the playoffs, but the gulf between them in the regular season and no real separation in the postseason make it hard to make a case for him being number one.
3. Wade. One of his best seasons and probably at his athletic peak or at least he was in 2009. He had a very good series versus the Celtics, but that’s supporting cast was never going to win anything.
4. Nash. +11.4, +11.2, +15.6 rORtg series in the playoffs, making it look routine really.
5. KG. Still an impact monster and had a very good season though I could also go with Dwight Howard here as he probably had his best season this season.

HM: Lamar Odom, Ray Allen, Manu, Duncan.

[OhayoKD]

Calling Lebron 'the reason they lost', like he was holding back Fat Shaq and Mo Will, is a pretty ridiculous way of describing it.

Lebron had a slightly subpar series vs the Celtics relative to his own high standards, but it was better than Kobe played vs Boston. The Cavs weren't supposed to win that series, it's clear in hindsight just how outgunned Lebron was. It's also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash.

I think almost anyone who watched the last three games of that series would find it very reasonable to say that LeBron was a significant reason they lost. He was bad!

As for the idea that “[t]he Cavs weren’t supposed to win that series,” the Cavaliers were -480 betting favorites in that series. They actually *were* supposed to win that series. You can say in retrospect you think that wasn’t quite right, but I think it’s a real stretch to act like this was some impossible series. It really was not. It was definitely a very winnable series, and LeBron played badly. There’s theories that it was because of injury or because of Delonte West and his mother or whatever, but regardless of the reason for it, LeBron was bad in the latter half of a winnable series and that’s a huge reason his team was knocked out of the playoffs. I don’t think it’d be at all fair to assess it differently than that.

Also, you say “[i]t’s also harder to put up big numbers against an all-time defense when your team mates are trash,” but Wade had no problem doing exactly that against the same defense. This wasn’t some impossible task. LeBron simply collapsed in the middle of a winnable series.

It really wasn't a winnable series. Oddsmakers were giving the Cavs good odds because of how impressive they were in the RS, but in hindsight that was just Lebron making a bad team overachieve. When the playoffs roll around your weaknesses as a team get exposed as teams scout and game plan against you. The Celtics were also not taking the RS too seriously for understandable reasons.

It was a winnable series for Lebron if he played like he did the previous year. Not for wade or kobe though

[lessthanjake]

I get your point, and that’s a big reason why I said I think LeBron was definitely the better player at this point. But when one guy is a superstar who leads his team to a title, and the other loses in the second round while actually being a big reason his team lost, I find it very difficult to justify not taking the guy who won the title for POY purposes. Again, though, if you asked me who was the better player that year, I’d say LeBron for sure. But I don’t think POY is a “best player” vote, though it’s all vague enough that it’s definitely fine if someone treats it that way.

Ok though I don't think being a superstar or not should really be a valid criteria to begin with but everyone does it their own way. To me this would be analogous to if Tatum led the Celtics to another title this year while Jokic lost in rd 2 and having Tatum ahead in poy rankings. Which some might do but I'm not sure anyone actually would consider doing it. Would you put Tatum ahead in this scenario?

It would depend on the exact circumstances. If Jokic collapsed in the series his team lost like LeBron did in 2010, and Tatum played well in the playoffs (i.e. he would definitely have to play better than he did in last year’s playoffs), then sure. I tend to think Kobe is a better player than Tatum, so I’m not sure that’s a perfect analogy, and I think the fact that the Celtics have won the title with Tatum not being very good in the playoffs would be a unique factor there weighing in everyone’s mind.

I think there’s an easier analogy than this though. In 2022, Jokic was a monster in the regular season and Steph had a down year in the regular season. But Steph won the title, while Jokic lost early in the playoffs, and I would give Steph POY that year even though I thought Jokic was definitely the better player. Of course, we can try to distinguish this by pointing out that Steph was better in the 2022 Finals than Kobe was in the 2010 Finals, but Kobe was better IMO in the prior two rounds than Steph was, and Jokic didn’t actually collapse in the 2022 playoffs like LeBron did (he was great offensively, though there were definitely criticisms of his defense). If anything, I think that year presents a harder sell for the guy who won the title, but I’d still go with Steph.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think there’s an easier analogy than this though. In 2022, Jokic was a monster in the regular season and Steph had a down year in the regular season. But Steph won the title, while Jokic lost early in the playoffs, and I would give Steph POY that year even though I thought Jokic was definitely the better player. Of course, we can try to distinguish this by pointing out that Steph was better in the 2022 Finals than Kobe was in the 2010 Finals, but Kobe was better IMO in the prior two rounds than Steph was, and Jokic didn’t actually collapse in the 2022 playoffs like LeBron did (he was great offensively, though there were definitely criticisms of his defense). If anything, I think that year presents a harder sell for the guy who won the title, but I’d still go with Steph.

I would say that's a somewhat fair analogy also.

[One_and_Done]

You're saying Lebron 'collapsed', but he 'collapsed' to a level that is still above Kobe. His series vs the Celtics is better than Kobe's.

[jjgp111292]

I've always felt LeBron was better this year than the previous, playoff flameout aside.

[Bidofo]

It shouldn't be forgotten that, for all of his offensive woes, LeBron was dominant defensively vs Boston. It's as close as you'll get to one star absolutely shutting down an opposing (somewhat) star in Pierce.

RS: 18.3ppg @ 61 TS%
1st round vs Heat (6th best defense): 19.6 ppg @ 59 TS%
2nd round vs Cavs (7th best defense): 13.5 @ 44 TS%
3rd round vs Magic (3rd best defense): 24.3 ppg @ 67 TS%
Finals vs Lakers (4th best defense): 18 ppg @ 55 TS%

Pierce had by far his worst series vs the Cavs, the worst defense the Celtics faced. Funnily enough, he also had by far his best series vs the best defense he faced lol. But LeBron had him in hell.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

My thoughts...

1. LeBron James

Statistically, it's hard to make an argument against him. I do think Kobe has a case, but with his individual numbers and leading that roster to the #1 record in the NBA, I'm going to give it to LeBron.

Having said that, we must stop whitewashing what happened in that Boston series.

The idea that the Cavs never had a shot at winning that series is just nonsense. It was not inevitable, and the Celtics were not some invincible team. By the numbers, they were not close to as good as they were in 2008. Garnett was not the same player, at least offensively, as he was in 2008 before his 2009 injury.

It was the Cavs who had the #1 record in the league(61 wins to the Celtics' 50), the higher SRS(6.17 - #2 in the league behind Orlando - to the Celtics' 3.37) and Net Rtg(+7.1 to the Celtics' +4.0), and home court advantage. They were favored. And after three games, they were up 2-1.

And LeBron simply was not good in the last three games of the series.

In Game 4, he shoots 38.9% FG, 22 points on 18 shots, 0/5 from 3, and turns the ball over 7 times to go with his 8 assists.

In Game 5, in his own building, he puts up 15 points on 14 shots(21.4% FG), 0/4 from 3, in a 32 point drubbing.

In Game 6, with his back against the wall, it wasn't as bad, and he put up a good box statline - 27 points, 10 assists, 19 rebounds - but shot 38.1% FG and turned the ball over 9 times to go with those 10 assists.

His play in those last games was so surprising that all kinds of stuff was thrown about in the media - the Delonte West drama distracted him, he had already mentally left Cleveland with his free agency weeks away, he quit on his team, IIRC there were even some accusations he threw the series on purpose so it would be easier to leave, etc. I don't know if any of that is true - maybe none of it is - but the point is his play in those last games was enough of a story to generate that type of speculation.

I'm giving him #1, but there's an argument not to.

2. Kobe Bryant

Of all the names people are considering for the Top 5 this season - LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Nash, Garnett, Durant, Kobe - Kobe has the third highest RS on/off at +12.4(after LeBron and Wade) and the second highest PO on/off at +7.6(after LeBron). He had a great playoff run and won the Finals' MVP even though he wasn't at his best in that series. He joined the rarified air of those players who were #1s on a repeat champion, a club that includes only(in chronological order) Mikan, Russell, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, LeBron, and Steph/Durant(depending on how you view the 17/18 Warriors).

His accomplishments this season pushed him firmly into Top 15 all time territory, and he deserves the recognition.

3. Dwyane Wade

Carried a crappy roster to the playoffs and put up huge box numbers in the one playoff series they played. Was +13.5 on/off in the RS. Second highest RAPM in the league according to JE.

4. Dwight Howard

I think this is pretty much his peak. All downhill from here. Was at the center of the #3 defense and #4 offense in the league, led his team to 59 victories and a second straight trip to the ECF while being +9.4 on/off in the RS.

5. Steve Nash

I hemmed and hawed but this is essentially Nash's last playoff hurrah, in which he got his team two games away from the Finals, and his numbers look good enough to justify it.

HMs:

6. Kevin Garnett

I really wanted to give him a Top 5 spot, because even though his decline had begun, he was still probably the most impactful player on a team that beat prime Wade, beat prime LeBron, beat prime Dwight, and got within spitting distance of beating end-of-his-prime Kobe. That would've been a 1995 Rockets type of run if they'd pulled it off. But I just couldn't justify it, looking at his numbers.

7A. Dirk Nowitzki

Great numbers in both RS and PO. Essentially the same player he'd be next season and he'll probably be getting Top 2-3 votes then.

7B. Pau Gasol

RS: 18.3/11.3/3.4a/1.7b, 59.3% TS, .220 WS/48, 4.9 BPM, +3.4
PO: 19.6/11.1/3.5a/2.1b, 59.9% TS, .224 WS/48, 5.9 BPM, +5.2

While being the #2 on the champs. Couldn't leave him off.

7C. Tim Duncan

Still Duncan, if post-prime. Solid numbers RS and PO for a 50 win team, and won a playoff series.

10. Kevin Durant

This is the year Durant really arrived. Monster scoring numbers, and the team made a big jump too.

11. Deron Williams

Probably his peak season - points/assists double double, good a:t ratio, solidly efficient, came 9th in MVP voting, won a playoff series over the reigning Western Conference champion Nuggets WITHOUT home court advantage, and kept three out of four games close with the eventual champion Lakers despite getting swept.

[jjgp111292]

Yeah, I feel like people here are trying to sweep just how bad he was in those last 3 games under the rug. It was a genuinely awful performance and there's a reason it generated conspiracy theories. If he's even decent after Game 4, they win that series.

[lessthanjake]

You're saying Lebron 'collapsed', but he 'collapsed' to a level that is still above Kobe. His series vs the Celtics is better than Kobe's.

As you know, I’m referring to LeBron’s collapse in the latter half of the series. In the last three games of the series, LeBron averaged 21 points a game on a 34% FG% (36% eFG% and 47% TS%), with 6.3 turnovers a game. He led the Cavs offense to an abysmal -12.04 rORTG in those games, and it was an even worse -12.35 rORTG in LeBron’s minutes. No, that is not better than Kobe against the Celtics, nor is there any comparably bad three-game span of Kobe against the Celtics. LeBron absolutely collapsed in that series. It was actually breathtaking at the time—to the point where people felt the need to try to explain it by speculating about LeBron’s mother’s sex life.

[carlquincy]

This is another one Lebron should be unanimous for. Will have to think over my 2-5. Nash will be in it for sure.

I'll edit in reasons later.

1. Lebron


2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Nash
5. KD

2010 KD over Kobe....another rock bottom for you.

He shouldn't be qualified in this project.He is too biased against one player and Kobe is not even one of my favorite player

Great project, unfortunately marred by O&D's extreme bias (not in top 5 for '08 & '10, #4 in '09) at this particular stretch.

Of course there are also pure Kobe fanboys, but at lease ceo has the decency to give Lebron his due rank.

What a shame.