2024-25 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

[falcolombardi]

Can we talk a bit about aaron wiggins for sixth man of the year?

His per-36 stats are 19/6/3 (12/4/2 in reality) in +3 efficiency with a very low turnover rate of 8.4%, defense imo has became solidly average to slightly above average with good lenght and effort too

Thunder also has some of its best lineups (which automatically are some of the best in the league) when he plays with starters

And he does all this in a better team than either cavs or boston compared to ty jerome or pritchard

[Doctor MJ]

I gotta say:

Giving Draymond the RS DPOY for a season in which he only played his best for part of the season particularly rubs me the wrong way now that they're in the play-in.

On the other hand for our DPOY, if Draymond is an absolute beast in the playoffs and helps his team secure at least one upset, he'll be a very serious candidate.

[OhayoKD]

I gotta say:

Giving Draymond the RS DPOY for a season in which he only played his best for part of the season particularly rubs me the wrong way now that they're in the play-in.

On the other hand for our DPOY, if Draymond is an absolute beast in the playoffs and helps his team secure at least one upset, he'll be a very serious candidate.

For the whole season the Warriors win=pace goes up by 15 with Draymond and they mantained a winning record without steph even pre-jimmy butler. Assuming that's naearly all from defense that seems to hint at a DPOY-level performance season-wide.

[AEnigma]

^ Yes, I find it interesting that Draymond apparently “only playing seriously for part of the season” led the Warriors to a better defence than offence, a 3.5-point defensive swing in his missed games, and an “advanced stat” (for whatever one could say they are worth) defensive profile that outpaced everyone except maybe Wembanyama.

Odd choice of narrative.

[Doctor MJ]

I gotta say:

Giving Draymond the RS DPOY for a season in which he only played his best for part of the season particularly rubs me the wrong way now that they're in the play-in.

On the other hand for our DPOY, if Draymond is an absolute beast in the playoffs and helps his team secure at least one upset, he'll be a very serious candidate.

For the whole season the Warriors win=pace goes up by 15 with Draymond and they mantained a winning record without steph even pre-jimmy butler. Assuming that's naearly all from defense that seems to hint at a DPOY-level performance season-wide.

Interesting that number 15 given that that's how much time he missed.

But I'll also say: Throughout his 9 games in December the team had a highly negative +/- with him on the floor. Not saying it was all on him, but he was out there and the team wasn't doing great. Those stumbles are why the Warriors now might miss the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

^ Yes, I find it interesting that Draymond apparently “only playing seriously for part of the season” led the Warriors to a better defence than offence, a 3.5-point defensive swing in his missed games, and an “advanced stat” (for whatever one could say they are worth) defensive profile that outpaced everyone except maybe Wembanyama.

Odd choice of narrative.

I'm not sure what's odd about it. Holding it against players whose teams fail to clinch a playoff spot is pretty normal.

Re: outpaced everyone but Wemby over the season. So, let's keep in mind 2 things:

1. If a player's average rate outpaces people but he plays less, that hurts his candidacy, particularly when it made a significant difference in the final standings.

2. Just because a player's average rate matches others doesn't mean he was playing at his peak level the whole time, as he could be playing above their pace for part of the time and below it at others.

I'm curious what metrics you're looking at here. If I just go by something like Defensive EPM, guys like Amen, Dyson & Zubac clearly would have total Defensive Estimated Wins when applying that rate to the total minutes played, and there may well be others.

I'm not beholden to EPM as the gold standard to be clear, so if there's another metric I should be paying attention to, please let me know, and of course if there's a metric that would actually favor Draymond by rate*minutes, definitely bring it up.

[OhayoKD]

I gotta say:

Giving Draymond the RS DPOY for a season in which he only played his best for part of the season particularly rubs me the wrong way now that they're in the play-in.

On the other hand for our DPOY, if Draymond is an absolute beast in the playoffs and helps his team secure at least one upset, he'll be a very serious candidate.

For the whole season the Warriors win=pace goes up by 15 with Draymond and they mantained a winning record without steph even pre-jimmy butler. Assuming that's naearly all from defense that seems to hint at a DPOY-level performance season-wide.

Interesting that number 15 given that that's how much time he missed.

These are a bit out of date I think but


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-jimmy-butler

Butler

17-4 (66-win pace with)

25-27 (39-win pace without)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-draymond-green

Draymond

36-23 (50-win pace with)

6-8 (35-win pace without)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-steph-curry

Steph

35-26 (47-win pace with)

7-5 (48-win pace without)

But I'll also say: Throughout his 9 games in December the team had a highly negative +/- with him on the floor. Not saying it was all on him, but he was out there and the team wasn't doing great. Those stumbles are why the Warriors now might miss the playoffs.

Meh. 9 games in December seems arbitrary to focus on. Overall his on/off and on-court rating are fine (+7) and higher than Steph's.

As far as impact data is concerned, Steph is alot more blame-worthy than Draymond is.

There's also the matter of the defense being better than the offense with what I think was a offense-slanted roster

[AEnigma]

^ Yes, I find it interesting that Draymond apparently “only playing seriously for part of the season” led the Warriors to a better defence than offence, a 3.5-point defensive swing in his missed games, and an “advanced stat” (for whatever one could say they are worth) defensive profile that outpaced everyone except maybe Wembanyama.

Odd choice of narrative.

I'm not sure what's odd about it. Holding it against players whose teams fail to clinch a playoff spot is pretty normal.

Re: outpaced everyone but Wemby over the season. So, let's keep in mind 2 things:

1. If a player's average rate outpaces people but he plays less, that hurts his candidacy, particularly when it made a significant difference in the final standings.

If you had criticised his playing time, I would be fine. You did not; you specifically said he only played seriously for part of the season, which is not a serious stance.

2. Just because a player's average rate matches others doesn't mean he was playing at his peak level the whole time, as he could be playing above their pace for part of the time and below it at others.

In turn I would say someone playing at their peak level for only part of the season does not prevent them from being a better defender than those who play at their peak for the entire season.

I'm curious what metrics you're looking at here. If I just go by something like Defensive EPM, guys like Amen, Dyson & Zubac clearly would have total Defensive Estimated Wins when applying that rate to the total minutes played, and there may well be others.

I'm not beholden to EPM as the gold standard to be clear, so if there's another metric I should be paying attention to, please let me know, and of course if there's a metric that would actually favor Draymond by rate*minutes, definitely bring it up.

This again is more a criticism of his missed time than of his “seriousness”, which further makes me wonder why rather than simply say Draymond missed too much time and that missed time clearly cost his team, you instead seem to be focused on how he played his best defence after getting Butler.

To be clear, if Amen Thompson looks like the best defensive player in that likely first round matchup, or if the Warriors fail to progress to the second round, then I will be penalising Draymond accordingly. As is, barring injury, I expect them to make the second round, because with this trio they are much better than the Grizzlies and should be appreciably better than the Rockets. None of that requires a comment on whether Draymond was sufficiently “serious” though.

[metta-tonne]

It's that time!

Every season the RealGM PC board does it's All-Season awards for the NBA.

"All-Season" means we factor in both the regular season and the playoffs - and we generally do this about a week after the Finals end.

The awards we give are:

Player of the Year (POY) - most accomplished overall player of that season.
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY) - most accomplished offensive player of that season.
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) - most accomplished defensive player of that season.
Rookie of the Year (ROY) - most accomplished rookie of that season.
Most Improved Player (MIP) - player whose improvement was the most noteworthy accomplishment.
6th Man of the Year (6MOY) - most accomplished player eligible as a 6th man that season.
Coach of the Year (COY) - most accomplished coach of that season.
Executive of the Year (EOY) - most accomplished GM/front office leader of that season.

POY has a 5-man ballot, all others have a 3-man ballot.
Only full ballots will be counted, and each ballot must be given some reasoning in the voting post.
For voters, POY is mandatory, all others are optional.

To participate:
1. Ask to be added to the panel by PMing me.
2. Contribute positively to the Discussion thread. (Note that past participants in good standing are generally cut some slack here, but I really do want everyone to be in Discussion in the playoffs.)

For reference, here's the list of previous award winners. Note that all years prior to 2009-10 were done as part of the Retro Player of the Year project, while later years were done after the season in question. All specific votes are listed in theoriginal Retro POY thread first post. Note also that beginning in 2014-15 we added the non-POY awards.

If you'd like to geek out about award shares, you can find the total tallies for POY, OPOY & DPOY here.

Does Giannis have a shot here?

[Doctor MJ]

For the whole season the Warriors win=pace goes up by 15 with Draymond and they mantained a winning record without steph even pre-jimmy butler. Assuming that's naearly all from defense that seems to hint at a DPOY-level performance season-wide.

Interesting that number 15 given that that's how much time he missed.

These are a bit out of date I think but


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-jimmy-butler

Butler

17-4 (66-win pace with)

25-27 (39-win pace without)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-draymond-green

Draymond

36-23 (50-win pace with)

6-8 (35-win pace without)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2025-warriors-record-with-and-without-steph-curry

Steph

35-26 (47-win pace with)

7-5 (48-win pace without)

But I'll also say: Throughout his 9 games in December the team had a highly negative +/- with him on the floor. Not saying it was all on him, but he was out there and the team wasn't doing great. Those stumbles are why the Warriors now might miss the playoffs.

Meh. 9 games in December seems arbitrary to focus on. Overall his on/off and on-court rating are fine (+7) and higher than Steph's.

As far as impact data is concerned, Steph is alot more blame-worthy than Draymond is.

There's also the matter of the defense being better than the offense with what I think was a offense-slanted roster

Well I appreciate you listing some stats.

Re: 9 games in December arbitrary about it. It's me pointing to a time in the season where there was a clear lull after having mentioned his missed time which speaks to the same thing.

Re: Steph. Well yeah, he's certainly less of a DPOY candidate than Dray which is I wasn't talking about him here.

[Doctor MJ]

^ Yes, I find it interesting that Draymond apparently “only playing seriously for part of the season” led the Warriors to a better defence than offence, a 3.5-point defensive swing in his missed games, and an “advanced stat” (for whatever one could say they are worth) defensive profile that outpaced everyone except maybe Wembanyama.

Odd choice of narrative.

I'm not sure what's odd about it. Holding it against players whose teams fail to clinch a playoff spot is pretty normal.

Re: outpaced everyone but Wemby over the season. So, let's keep in mind 2 things:

1. If a player's average rate outpaces people but he plays less, that hurts his candidacy, particularly when it made a significant difference in the final standings.

If you had criticised his playing time, I would be fine. You did not; you specifically said he only played seriously for part of the season, which is not a serious stance.

2. Just because a player's average rate matches others doesn't mean he was playing at his peak level the whole time, as he could be playing above their pace for part of the time and below it at others.

In turn I would say someone playing at their peak level for only part of the season does not prevent them from being a better defender than those who play at their peak for the entire season.

I'm curious what metrics you're looking at here. If I just go by something like Defensive EPM, guys like Amen, Dyson & Zubac clearly would have total Defensive Estimated Wins when applying that rate to the total minutes played, and there may well be others.

I'm not beholden to EPM as the gold standard to be clear, so if there's another metric I should be paying attention to, please let me know, and of course if there's a metric that would actually favor Draymond by rate*minutes, definitely bring it up.

This again is more a criticism of his missed time than of his “seriousness”, which further makes me wonder why rather than simply say Draymond missed too much time and that missed time clearly cost his team, you instead seem to be focused on how he played his best defence after getting Butler.

To be clear, if Amen Thompson looks like the best defensive player in that likely first round matchup, or if the Warriors fail to progress to the second round, then I will be penalising Draymond accordingly. As is, barring injury, I expect them to make the second round, because with this trio they are much better than the Grizzlies and should be appreciably better than the Rockets. None of that requires a comment on whether Draymond was sufficiently “serious” though.

Re: you said he only played seriously part of the season. Okay, if you want to object to me using the term "seriously" to describe him missing time, playing lesser minutes for part of the year, and having quite negative +/- in that time frame, I apologize for using the judgy term.

Re: In turn I would say....something obvious that doesn't contradict what I said.

Re: This again is... so no data indicating that a rate*minutes would favor Green then?

Let's keep in mind that the ONLY reason I'm critiquing Draymond Green here is because he's a DPOY candidate, and he's become arguably the leading candidate rapidly at the end of the season while he's been actively campaigning for the award.

Let's also remember that I'm not a Draymond Green skeptic. I'm on record having him as the best defensive player of the era while this group sides with Rudy Gobert. I'm not bringing any of this stuff up to hate on the dude as a candidate, and in fact I'm actively seeking data which change my current perspective...to which you're responding to further harping about a particular adverb I used.

[Doctor MJ]

Does Giannis have a shot here?

Sure.

[AEnigma]

Re: This again is... so no data indicating that a rate*minutes would favor Green then?

LEBRON dWAR EDIT D-LEBRON*minutes does. I would not be surprised if you could find also some random RAPM outputs, or craft a competent metric, to give you such a result as well. Is rate*minutes your usual approach to these awards?

Let's keep in mind that the ONLY reason I'm critiquing Draymond Green here is because he's a DPOY candidate, and he's become arguably the leading candidate rapidly at the end of the season while he's been actively campaigning for the award.

And I think this year he has been the best non-Wembanyama defender in basketball, and while I agree his campaigning has been obnoxious, my only real objection to campaigns is when they are not deserved, and by virtue of being the best award-qualified defender in basketball, I think a win would be deserved. More players could have stood to have campaigned when they deserved it (Tim Duncan). Note though that this is distinct from saying he has definitively provided his team with the most aggregate defensive value — because to both me and the official voters, that has only ever been part of the way this award is assessed.

[penbeast0]

The language here is interesting as "most accomplished player" may be different from "most valuable player."

Player of the Year (POY) - most accomplished overall player of that season.
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY) - most accomplished offensive player of that season.
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) - most accomplished defensive player of that season.
Rookie of the Year (ROY) - most accomplished rookie of that season.

You did make it clear that you are taking games played into account but the key difference in this language seems to be that this award is not necessarily for the player most valuable to their team, but the one who has the most individual accomplishments, which may not be the same thing (see Russell v. Chamberlain debates). So a player that plays in a way that people think should translate to the most wins in a vacuum but whose game didn't actually translate to most wins.

Let me know if I am way off base here.

[Doctor MJ]

The language here is interesting as "most accomplished player" may be different from "most valuable player."

Player of the Year (POY) - most accomplished overall player of that season.
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY) - most accomplished offensive player of that season.
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) - most accomplished defensive player of that season.
Rookie of the Year (ROY) - most accomplished rookie of that season.

You did make it clear that you are taking games played into account but the key difference in this language seems to be that this award is not necessarily for the player most valuable to their team, but the one who has the most individual accomplishments, which may not be the same thing (see Russell v. Chamberlain debates). So a player that plays in a way that people think should translate to the most wins in a vacuum but whose game didn't actually translate to most wins.

Let me know if I am way off base here.

Hmm, so this is a reasonable thing to bring up, but it's also just me copy & pasting from prior years, and it felt like previous voters understood what the deal was.

To just try to hit key points:

1. The big picture thing here is that these are not awards for the best player in a vacuum but rather based on what they did during this season.

2. The tricky thing then when it comes to the playoffs is how to factor that in when comparing a worse player getting to make a deep playoff run and a stronger player who doesn't get to make such a run. Playoffs can certainly put a guy over the top, but I didn't want to imply that a less effective player should move ahead simply because his team allowed him to play 100 games.

Make sense? Any questions from anyone?

[AEnigma]

But accomplishment is largely subjective, as is the means by which we assess which players are “better”. And to the latter point, no one (else?) is really assessing Zubac as a “better” defender than Draymond, regardless of whether he may have provided more aggregate defensive value to his team or potentially been more “accomplished” by virtue of leading a better defence, leading the league in defensive rebounds, and playing more.

Perhaps that instinct is wrong, and we could see as much in the postseason should Zubac make Jokic struggle while Draymond looks defensively ineffective. And in turn, going farther without demonstrably superior support against a not demonstrably inferior opponent would be a significant accomplishment in itself. But the implication that Draymond should take a heavy accomplishment hit in the regular season because his team lost the last game of the season in overtime seems dramatically reactionary in an unproductive way.

[Doctor MJ]

Re: This again is... so no data indicating that a rate*minutes would favor Green then?

LEBRON dWAR does. I would not be surprised if you could find also some random RAPM outputs, or craft a competent metric, to give you such a result as well. Is rate*minutes your usual approach to these awards?

Let's keep in mind that the ONLY reason I'm critiquing Draymond Green here is because he's a DPOY candidate, and he's become arguably the leading candidate rapidly at the end of the season while he's been actively campaigning for the award.

And I think this year he has been the best non-Wembanyama defender in basketball, and while I agree his campaigning has been obnoxious, my only real objection to campaigns is when they are not deserved, and by virtue of being the best award-qualified defender in basketball, I think a win would be deserved. More players could have stood to have campaigned when they deserved it (Tim Duncan). Note though that this is distinct from saying he has definitively provided his team with the most aggregate defensive value — because to both me and the official voters, that has only ever been part of the way this award is assessed.

I'll check out dWAR.

Re: my usual approach? So I'll put it like this:

1. I don't like using metrics like this as my final assessment, but I do like them for my first pass assessment.

2. Mostly in the past we haven't had reliable real-time access to metrics I consider good enough to do this, but now that we do, I think it's something people should be looking at, particularly when potentially siding with players who play limited minutes or whose year-long play was hampered for part of the season.

Re: campaigning. I'm honestly fine with people campaigning, I just keep a hand on my proverbial wallet when I see opinions flip dramatically in the wake of campaigning.

[AEnigma]

The opinions flipped because Wemby was injured, the Grizzlies spiralled, the Cavaliers cooled off while Mobley individually had a couple of uninspiring defensive games with attention on him, and the Warriors rapidly improved with Butler while Draymond also individually stepped up his play. I know of absolutely no one who said, ah, Draymond said he should win, and he knows defence better than I do, so I will take him at his word.

As for the rest of the contenders, Zubac, Gobert, and Amen never quite cracked the discussion — you can argue they should have, but that is a different issue from whether Draymond’s campaigning had any effect — and this forum consistently knows to take a more skeptical approach to the idea of players like Dyson or Dort winning.

EDIT for additional context: I wrote this on the afternoon of February 20. After that post, the 28-27 Warriors went 20-7, the 36-18 Grizzlies went 12-16, and the 44-10 Cavaliers went 20-8. That typically will, and in this case did, change narratives.

[Doctor MJ]

But accomplishment is largely subjective, as is the means by which we assess which players are “better”. And to the latter point, no one (else?) is really assessing Zubac as a “better” defender than Draymond, regardless of whether he may have provided more aggregate defensive value to his team or potentially been more “accomplished” by virtue of leading a better defence, leading the league in defensive rebounds, and playing more.

Perhaps that instinct is wrong, and we could see as much in the postseason should Zubac make Jokic struggle while Draymond looks defensively ineffective. And in turn, going farther without demonstrably superior support against a not demonstrably inferior opponent would be a significant accomplishment in itself. But the implication that Draymond should take a heavy accomplishment hit in the regular season because his team lost the last game of the season in overtime seems dramatically reactionary in an unproductive way.

All words are mere approximations of meaning. I'm setting the criteria in words as best I can and expect people to ask questions for clarification as needed.

To put another way: In theory someone could default to a definition 'accomplishment' here by stuff totally different from the intention of the project, say, internet traffic...but if they do this, they are incorrect in their understanding of the purpose of the project and I have no issue telling them that and not counting their vote if they don't change.

But I've really never been a micromanager at this stuff. I want voters to have wiggle room, I just don't want to tally votes for completely different criteria, because such tallies then have no meaning.

Re: overreaction to one game! I think it's perfectly fine to see it that way.

So we're clear: Part of my perspective here is based on the expectation of how people will perceive things if the best/worst happens right going forward. I think that if an MVP or DPOY's team gets eliminated before the playoffs, that's going to really shape future perception, rightly or wrongly. So then to some degree what I'm doing here is pointing out how the current trend of collective thought might jolt back harshly.

[AEnigma]

Agree there. I have already said I would have a tough time awarding Draymond if he accomplishes nothing in the postseason, and I would hope — given the missed time and the merely respectable season-long defensive results of the team — that others follow suit (absent similar postseason irrelevance from all the other contenders).