Which Player Had A Higher Peak? Tracy Mcgrady or James Harden?

[f4p]

Do people really think there is nothing wrong with throwing serious accusations around on the Internet or what?

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

[70sFan]

Do people really think there is nothing wrong with throwing serious accusations around on the Internet or what?

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

[f4p]

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

i didn't say he fabricated all his work or something actually serious that goes to the core of his work. i'm just saying he's not following an honest process if he somehow got 1 weirdly outsized peak tmac season over several consistent harden seasons at the same level, especially since tmac comes with no team success or impact metrics to offset any of the other stuff.

[CKRT]

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

I like Ben, but putting McGrady over Harden is maybe the most brain dead take I have seen from someone so respected in analytic circles. It's really not a defensible choice and he deserves criticism for it. I listened to the pod and it feels like Ben just fell in love with the idea of McGrady and not who he actually was. He even criticizes McGrady for not integrating well with Yao and that's something we saw Harden do with multiple other star level talents. He even points out how Tracy wasn't even as good as a playmaker as Kobe and Harden is several levels above both of them..and Harden is a clearly better scorer than McGrady too. There's just isn't an argument to make here for TMac and Ben does not sell me on this. It's a bad take.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I don't see why people can't just come to the conclusion that Ben might be unusually low on Harden, and that maybe he messed up in his evaluation. Suggesting he's liar/has some hidden anglw is odd considering the person who Ben really reps compared to consensus (Steph), never had any troubles with his team triumphing over him.

This isn't like when some Lebron fans are disturbed by KD going to GSW, because it might have cut Lebron's title count short.

Harden literally had no impact on Steph's ultimate title count. If anything, it would make sense for Curry backers to hype up Harden and place him as a a top 25 ATG who could never win because of Steph. Similar to how Jordan "blocked" Malone or Hakem (so some say).

[70sFan]

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

I like Ben, but putting McGrady over Harden is maybe the most brain dead take I have seen from someone so respected in analytic circles. It's really not a defensible choice and he deserves criticism for it. I listened to the pod and it feels like Ben just fell in love with the idea of McGrady and not who he actually was. He even criticizes McGrady for not integrating well with Yao and that's something we saw Harden do with multiple other star level talents. He even points out how Tracy wasn't even as good as a playmaker as Kobe and Harden is several levels above both of them..and Harden is a clearly better scorer than McGrady too. There's just isn't an argument to make here for TMac and Ben does not sell me on this. It's a bad take.

I agree it's a bad take, but it doesn't mean he's a liar. Ben is unusually low on Harden, which I don't think is fair but it is how it is. I agree that Tracy has very weak case for the placement Ben put him on, but it's not like Ben isn't aware of his limitations and concerns regarding his game. The episode wasn't full of flowers for Tmac, quite the opposite in fact.

[One_and_Done]

I voted Harden, but that's more a reflection of how good I think Harden was rather than a criticism of T-Mac. These guys both get hated on too much by the rings brigade.

[TheGOATRises007]

To me it's pretty clearly Harden, mostly because he had multiple seasons at a similar level making his "peak" feel like less of an outlier. I'm generally adverse to rating outlier seasons like '03 McGrady highly relative to someone like Harden because of that. .

I agree with this.

This is why I'd pick Harden over T-Mac.

Harden to me has become underrated in recent years.

[Jaivl]

To me it's pretty clearly Harden, mostly because he had multiple seasons at a similar level making his "peak" feel like less of an outlier. I'm generally adverse to rating outlier seasons like '03 McGrady highly relative to someone like Harden because of that. .

I agree with this.

This is why I'd pick Harden over T-Mac.

Harden to me has become underrated in recent years.

Harden has somehow always been underrated.

[70sFan]

To me it's pretty clearly Harden, mostly because he had multiple seasons at a similar level making his "peak" feel like less of an outlier. I'm generally adverse to rating outlier seasons like '03 McGrady highly relative to someone like Harden because of that. .

I agree with this.

This is why I'd pick Harden over T-Mac.

Harden to me has become underrated in recent years.

Harden has somehow always been underrated.

Yeah, even when he posted some of the most casual-fan appealing numbers in 2019 people didn't treat that seriously. Harden has been extremely underrated and the strange thing is that doesn't matter on the basketball circle you discuss around - he's not rated highly by casuals and by people who understand basketball at reasonable level.

[RCM88x]

I agree with this.

This is why I'd pick Harden over T-Mac.

Harden to me has become underrated in recent years.

Harden has somehow always been underrated.

Yeah, even when he posted some of the most casual-fan appealing numbers in 2019 people didn't treat that seriously. Harden has been extremely underrated and the strange thing is that doesn't matter on the basketball circle you discuss around - he's not rated highly by casuals and by people who understand basketball at reasonable level.

Probably being one of, if not the least enjoyable superstar to watch play in the last 20+ years impacts people's perception. See my signature lol

[homecourtloss]

I agree with this.

This is why I'd pick Harden over T-Mac.

Harden to me has become underrated in recent years.

Harden has somehow always been underrated.

Yeah, even when he posted some of the most casual-fan appealing numbers in 2019 people didn't treat that seriously. Harden has been extremely underrated and the strange thing is that doesn't matter on the basketball circle you discuss around - he's not rated highly by casuals and by people who understand basketball at reasonable level.

The bolded puts him in a rather unique space as far as what others think of him. To me, if we were to take away the name and only show what he has done, it would be hard to be as low as Ben is on Harden’s peak as a guard. What TMac did in 2003 with what he had on his team was remarkable, but Harden has been just as remarkable in many different years (98th—99th percentile offensive machine for 6-7 straight seasons) , AND, offensively, he has been really good in the playoffs.

In playoffs only RAPM, he has the second highest playoffs’ ORAPM.



He’s the only negative defender in the top 25 here, but in some years, he’s been good as an ISO defender at the very least.

not really. ben doesn't post here any more. he's a public figure (who also doesn't care what i say). if i can say things about shaq and chuck's opinions on inside, i can say it about other people on other sites. something tells me that listening to it isn't going to make tmac win a playoff series or not have a -4.8 career playoff on/off (-3 if i pick the absolute most generous stretch).

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

i didn't say he fabricated all his work or something actually serious that goes to the core of his work. i'm just saying he's not following an honest process if he somehow got 1 weirdly outsized peak tmac season over several consistent harden seasons at the same level, especially since tmac comes with no team success or impact metrics to offset any of the other stuff.

I’d have to agree here. When looking at the data and some of the data that Ben uses for others, it’s hard to have Harden’s peak so low when he’s produced so many incredible offensive seasons.

[LA Bird]

Regardless of their actual placement, the episode was just not that good. Ben penalized Harden for something that happened outside his peak season (numbers declining towards end of series) while ignoring it for TMac's own peak. Then he rewarded TMac for something that happened outside his peak season (rim protection numbers in Houston adjusting for Yao) while ignoring the obvious confounding factor (Mutombo). Rest of the episode felt mostly like him and Cody just gushing over how McGrady is 6'9, athletic, has good handles, and can make tough shots... like casual fans when they overrate Paul George's game.

Maybe there is more content behind his paywall that Ben is saving for monetization but based just off the episode, there was little argument for TMac going above Harden. But then again, this is also the same guy who ranked Durant over LeBron in 2016 because of "portability" so him being low on Harden is barely a surprise.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Regardless of their actual placement, the episode was just not that good. Ben penalized Harden for something that happened outside his peak season (numbers declining towards end of series) while ignoring it for TMac's own peak. Then he rewarded TMac for something that happened outside his peak season (rim protection numbers in Houston adjusting for Yao) while ignoring the obvious confounding factor (Mutombo). Rest of the episode felt mostly like him and Cody just gushing over how McGrady is 6'9, athletic, has good handles, and can make tough shots... like casual fans when they overrate Paul George's game.

Maybe there is more content behind his paywall that Ben is saving for monetization but based just off the episode, there was little argument for TMac going above Harden. But then again, this is also the same guy who ranked Durant over LeBron in 2016 because of "portability" so him being low on Harden is barely a surprise.

He might have had Durant higher than Lebron in 2016 years ago, but he has a radically different viewpoint. 2016 Lebron is in a different tier from Durant that year per his valuations.

[lessthanjake]

I think the only way it is justifiable to put peak McGrady over peak Harden is if you really just isolate out 2003 and take it completely at face value, without reference to anything else. That was a genuinely amazing season from McGrady. But it was well above any other season from him, and I don’t think anything else he did is at all close to peak Harden, so you really just have to laser focus on that one year for McGrady. And even then, I think I’d put peak Harden ahead without too much difficulty.

[Fadeaway_J]

Regardless of their actual placement, the episode was just not that good. Ben penalized Harden for something that happened outside his peak season (numbers declining towards end of series) while ignoring it for TMac's own peak. Then he rewarded TMac for something that happened outside his peak season (rim protection numbers in Houston adjusting for Yao) while ignoring the obvious confounding factor (Mutombo). Rest of the episode felt mostly like him and Cody just gushing over how McGrady is 6'9, athletic, has good handles, and can make tough shots... like casual fans when they overrate Paul George's game.

Maybe there is more content behind his paywall that Ben is saving for monetization but based just off the episode, there was little argument for TMac going above Harden. But then again, this is also the same guy who ranked Durant over LeBron in 2016 because of "portability" so him being low on Harden is barely a surprise.

I haven't listened to this one yet, but this is why find the podcasts frustrating at times. Considering the amount of film study and data involved, the discussions tend to be kind of unfocused and the argumentation isn't consistent.

[Special_Puppy]

Harden has somehow always been underrated.

Yeah, even when he posted some of the most casual-fan appealing numbers in 2019 people didn't treat that seriously. Harden has been extremely underrated and the strange thing is that doesn't matter on the basketball circle you discuss around - he's not rated highly by casuals and by people who understand basketball at reasonable level.

The bolded puts him in a rather unique space as far as what others think of him. To me, if we were to take away the name and only show what he has done, it would be hard to be as low as Ben is on Harden’s peak as a guard. What TMac did in 2003 with what he had on his team was remarkable, but Harden has been just as remarkable in many different years (98th—99th percentile offensive machine for 6-7 straight seasons) , AND, offensively, he has been really good in the playoffs.

In playoffs only RAPM, he has the second highest playoffs’ ORAPM.



He’s the only negative defender in the top 25 here, but in some years, he’s been good as an ISO defender at the very least.

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

i didn't say he fabricated all his work or something actually serious that goes to the core of his work. i'm just saying he's not following an honest process if he somehow got 1 weirdly outsized peak tmac season over several consistent harden seasons at the same level, especially since tmac comes with no team success or impact metrics to offset any of the other stuff.

I’d have to agree here. When looking at the data and some of the data that Ben uses for others, it’s hard to have Harden’s peak so low when he’s produced so many incredible offensive seasons.

Should note that in RS+PO RAPM, Harden has the 4th highest O-RAPM although he is dragged down by his defense somewhat.
https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[Special_Puppy]

Even in 2019, Ben thought Harden was only the 7th best player in the league that year (which is kinda nuts)

Watch on YouTube

;t=445s&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball

[CKRT]

So it's good to throw accusations around people because they are public figures and they don't care? What times do we live in?

I like Ben, but putting McGrady over Harden is maybe the most brain dead take I have seen from someone so respected in analytic circles. It's really not a defensible choice and he deserves criticism for it. I listened to the pod and it feels like Ben just fell in love with the idea of McGrady and not who he actually was. He even criticizes McGrady for not integrating well with Yao and that's something we saw Harden do with multiple other star level talents. He even points out how Tracy wasn't even as good as a playmaker as Kobe and Harden is several levels above both of them..and Harden is a clearly better scorer than McGrady too. There's just isn't an argument to make here for TMac and Ben does not sell me on this. It's a bad take.

I agree it's a bad take, but it doesn't mean he's a liar. Ben is unusually low on Harden, which I don't think is fair but it is how it is. I agree that Tracy has very weak case for the placement Ben put him on, but it's not like Ben isn't aware of his limitations and concerns regarding his game. The episode wasn't full of flowers for Tmac, quite the opposite in fact.

I don't think he's a liar or has an "agenda" so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was agreeing with calling him a liar. But it does feel like there's some bad faith thing happening around Ben's evaluation of Harden that's kind of confounding for someone of his stature. It's a bad enough take that it makes me question his process not only on how he arrived at this take but the rest of his rankings too.

[Peregrine01]

Perhaps we should obsess less over rankings. Ben does give ranges.

With TMac, I think he over-extrapolates that one stellar season and perhaps thinks that it's better than any single Harden year. With Harden, I think he's less impressed with what he does in the regular season and scrutinizes what happens in the playoffs when he isn't getting the same kind of calls and doesn't try to adapt his play style or come up with more counters.