Most Dominant Ever

[penbeast0]

What counts as dominance?

Russell's defense shut down the league, for example. It was pretty much all Boston for nearly a decade and a half. That was built on the back of his defense and rebounding.

Individual performance? Wilt comes up. You could discuss Kareem in terms of accolades, though his specific numbers got a lot less interesting after he left Milwaukee (still incredible, though). Jordan is a discussion to have.

Definitely not Shaq, though he was obviously a dominant player and frequently claimed the title.

This becomes a question of semantics VERY quickly.

OP: By dominant, also I specifically mean biggest contribution to winning. Not necessarily on the best team but the one who makes the biggest difference between being a winning team and a losing team weighted toward ceiling raising as more difficult and more valuable than floor raising if that helps).

[kcktiny]

For me, a dominant player is worth restructuring your roster for because they are so head and shoulders better than the next best.

That is your definition.

No one during that time was thinking Robinson had massive separation with Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, etc... that doesn't mean anyone was thinking he had a massive advantage over other top tier centers he overlapped with in this peak.

Over a long 7 year stretch - and among 30 teams and 130+ different Cs - just one C, DRob, among all Cs was 1st in points scored, 1st in FTM/FTA, 1st in rebounds, 1st in assists, 1st in blocks, 2nd in steals.

Don't know how any one player could be more dominant statistically at a single position over that long of a time span (looking at the past 4 decades).

By dominant, also I specifically mean biggest contribution to winning. Not necessarily on the best team but the one who makes the biggest difference between being a winning team and a losing team

Those 7 seasons DRob's best teammate was likely Sean Elliot. Terry Cummings played 6 of those seasons but only 29 min/g (he did have Dennis Rodman 2 of those seasons, at 64 games/season).

Its obviously Jordan and it isn't even close

The Bulls 6 title seasons among the league's SGs Jordan was 1st in points scored, 1st in FTM/FTA, 1st in rebounds, 1st in steals, 1st in blocks, 2nd in assists.

He had Pippen each season at an average of 38 min/g and 75 games, had either Rodman (66 games/season) or Horace Grant (75 games/season) at PF for 35 min/g for 3/6 of the seasons.

Probably give Shaq the 2nd place nod. 3-peating aint easy as lead dog. Very rarely done.

During his 3peat among Cs Shaq ranked 1st in points scored, 1st in FTM/FTA, 1st in assists, 2nd in rebounds, 3rd in blocks, 18th in steals.

Had Kobe Bryant for 71 games/season and 39 min/g.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

IMO most dominant ever titles need shorter peak requirements .making it multi year almost make it a career debate.

2011 Dirk most dominant player ever for me. His gravity was underrated. Turned role players into world beaters. Dominated great teams. Every time his team needed clutch shots he hit them.

Saying this as a fan who grew up watching Shaq since he was on the magic.

If the requirement is you need to dominate over a multi year period it’s definitely between shaq or LeBron.

[tsherkin]

What counts as dominance?

Russell's defense shut down the league, for example. It was pretty much all Boston for nearly a decade and a half. That was built on the back of his defense and rebounding.

Individual performance? Wilt comes up. You could discuss Kareem in terms of accolades, though his specific numbers got a lot less interesting after he left Milwaukee (still incredible, though). Jordan is a discussion to have.

Definitely not Shaq, though he was obviously a dominant player and frequently claimed the title.

This becomes a question of semantics VERY quickly.

OP: By dominant, also I specifically mean biggest contribution to winning. Not necessarily on the best team but the one who makes the biggest difference between being a winning team and a losing team weighted toward ceiling raising as more difficult and more valuable than floor raising if that helps).

I absolutely read right past that, lmao. In my defense, I'm on nights, so I'm dumber than usual

With that in mind, and considering the remark about ceiling vs floor raising, I think I still have to go with Russell.

[Owly]

During his 3peat among Cs Shaq ranked 1st... 1st in FTM/FTA,

Pedantry perhaps, but as that expression would conventionally be read, he wasn't as that would be (the decimal version of) free throw percentage.

For that spell, from the line, he shot .529 in the RS or if the focus is on playoffs given the "3peat" mention .533 over those playoffs.

[LA Bird]

Mikan is the MDE. The gap between him and Davies is already by far the largest between #1 and #2 of any era and then 3~5 is even further away. Some might argue his competition was artificially weakened by Kurland not going pro but similar arguments could also be levied against Kareem (Walton effectively gone by 78) and Jordan (Magic retiring early in 91). After college, Kurland joined a 4-peat AAU powerhouse and only won 3 more titles in 6 years before retiring. Meanwhile, Mikan won 7 titles in 8 years joining sub 500 teams (Lakers were a WOAT 4-40 before relocation, granted they also added Pollard at the same time). Yardley straight out of college joined a no name AAU team and won the title as national amateur player of the year over Kurland. A young Groza and Lovellette also outscored Kurland when they were on the Olympics team together. We will never know for sure but judging from how he didn't crush the amateurs, I don't think Kurland would be as close to Mikan in the pros as they were in college.

[Owly]

Mikan is the MDE. The gap between him and Davies is already by far the largest between #1 and #2 of any era and then 3~5 is even further away. Some might argue his competition was artificially weakened by Kurland not going pro but similar arguments could also be levied against Kareem (Walton effectively gone by 78) and Jordan (Magic retiring early in 91). After college, Kurland joined a 4-peat AAU powerhouse and only won 3 more titles in 6 years before retiring. Meanwhile, Mikan won 7 titles in 8 years joining sub 500 teams (Lakers were a WOAT 4-40 before relocation, granted they also added Pollard at the same time). Yardley straight out of college joined a no name AAU team and won the title as national amateur player of the year over Kurland. A young Groza and Lovellette also outscored Kurland when they were on the Olympics team together. We will never know for sure but judging from how he didn't crush the amateurs, I don't think Kurland would be as close to Mikan in the pros as they were in college.

I nearly did a pro-Mikan post including that, yes it is 7 of 8 (rather than 5 of 6) in the main body of his career and that like '58 the loss is with an injury. He combines box production and team dominance in a way that depending on definitions (and what one does about era, league size etc) gives him a pretty good case.


The one thing I would say is ...

Lakers were a WOAT 4-40 before relocation, granted they also added Pollard at the same time

Gives a misleading sense of continuity. Look through these rosters ...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/teams/DTG/1947.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/teams/MNN/1948.html

There is no continuity. From memory the Lakers wanted to acquire Gems' franchise "continuity" for the potential rights to Mikan (perhaps as opposed to being an expansion franchise) but so far as I can recall (entirely otoh) Detroit went down, then the Lakers bought their "spot" and their record but there is zero real connection to what the Gems were. The badness of the Gems tells us nothing about Mikan.

You could try to look at the in-season arrival on the Gears though iirc McDermott arrived around the same time is perhaps muddying things slightly or departure impact though that's an older Mikan and a team that by the end maybe didn't maximize RS wins (harder to know in those days).

[penbeast0]

Mikan is the MDE. The gap between him and Davies is already by far the largest between #1 and #2 of any era and then 3~5 is even further away. Some might argue his competition was artificially weakened by Kurland not going pro but similar arguments could also be levied against Kareem (Walton effectively gone by 78) and Jordan (Magic retiring early in 91). After college, Kurland joined a 4-peat AAU powerhouse and only won 3 more titles in 6 years before retiring. Meanwhile, Mikan won 7 titles in 8 years joining sub 500 teams (Lakers were a WOAT 4-40 before relocation, granted they also added Pollard at the same time). Yardley straight out of college joined a no name AAU team and won the title as national amateur player of the year over Kurland. A young Groza and Lovellette also outscored Kurland when they were on the Olympics team together. We will never know for sure but judging from how he didn't crush the amateurs, I don't think Kurland would be as close to Mikan in the pros as they were in college.

Not to disagree with your conclusions, but Kurland's fame in his day wasn't his scoring but his defense from what I've read.