Peaks: Dwight vs Drob vs Dirk vs Ewing vs AD vs Moses

[Owly]

Imo Robinson doesn't have RS separation from Moses/Dirk (he's certainly arguable as the best RS player). The usual feather in his cap is the massive on and on/off numbers from '94-'96, but they're only slightly ahead of Moses '83/'85, several Dirk prime years, and even slightly behind '03 Dirk. His teams/individual accomplishments weren't more impressive so we're usually left with either stylistic or box-score based arguments - which I'm personally not very open to in an era where we do have impact data.

Missing prime Ewings numbers to compare ('94-'96 Ewing seems fairly in line with Howard), but the above 3 do seem a tier up from Howard, who is then a tier up from Davis for RS impact measures.

Where are these on/off numbers, could you show me please (DROB and Moses ofc)?

They are estimates from full season +/- data, but should be accurate to within a point or so (the main point of inaccuracy would be if the team played with dramatically different pace without the player in question).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12wBquVtyX4RKXDFtFMLt2QvqfICO_6SCKwm3s_dkb-Q/edit?pli=1&gid=0#gid=0

Original +/- data from Pollacks tracking and a member of this board converted to /100 data (I forget who...). I'm sure someone (Owly?) has the images from Pollacks books, but I only have the spreadsheet summary.

Original poster who posted them was called fpliii and latterly ceiling raiser (as far as I can tell last active June of this year). They posted pictures from Harvey Pollack's 76ers statsbooks. I think the pictures of the relevant pages (for some years) were put up on an image hosting and maybe a file sharing site but will have long since expired. I may or may not still have them on an old computer, but did see them (can have a look if anyone really cares). From there some spreadsheets were created including one creating a faux-RAPM for each of the 94-96 seasons (that's what I called it - because it wasn't from lineup data - looking at it, it was called "Regressed RAPM" and "RAPM adj w/Variance").

As outlined above this was +/- data league wide for 94-96 (though with players who switched teams in season you couldn't [easily?] turn this to a close approximate to on/off). For the 76ers (and there was some data for 76er opponents, though sample sizes obviously were an issue here) the data went further back - I think to circa '77 - and was in a little greater detail (I think points for and against while on) to allow for more of a split (e.g. you could see how Manute Bol killed both teams' offenses).

This is mostly off memory and a little searching on present computer and now just trying to find a/the relevant thread (viewtopic.php?t=1343246).


I cited the main Robinson and Moses numbers in my post above but I've tried to copy and paste though (1) don't know how to format it so it''s readable and (2) I may have butchered it trying to punctuate it so (3) eminence has already post a link with 94-96 and that has a sheet with the link to the 76ers data so that's probably easier.

Robinson on; off; net
94: 9.4' -10.5 19.9
95: 10.7; -9.1; 19.8
96: 10.7 -5.9 16.6
(with league rankings of 1st, 1st, 2nd (to Penny Hardaway))

Moses for 76ers overall (includes '94, I think)
On; Off; Total Net; Offense on; Offense off; Offense Net; Def on; Def off; Def Net
6.5; -5.4; 11.9; 111.3; 101.5; 9.8 104.9; 106.9; -2.0

Moses year specific
Year; Player; Min; Pts for; Pts all; On Net; Off Net; On ; Off; Total Net; Offense on; Offense off; Offense Net; Def on; Def off; Def Net; Poss on; Poss off; Pts for off; pts all off;
83; Malone; 2922; 6906; 6186; 720; -91; 11.5; -4.1; 15.6; 110.5; 102.3; 8.2; 98.9; 106.4; -7.4; 6251.8625; 2233.725; 2285; 2376;
84; Malone; 2613; 5981; 5801; 180; 0; 3.3; 0.0; 3.3; 110.3; 99.9; 10.4; 107.0; 99.9; 7.1; 5421.975; 2859.35; 2857; 2857
85; Malone; 2957; 7210; 6618; 592; -256; 9.5; -12.1; 21.7; 116.1; 97.3; 18.8; 106.6; 109.4; -2.8; 6209.7; 2108.4; 2051; 2307
86; Malone; 2706; 6314; 605;3 261; -68; 4.6; -2.5; 7.2; 111.4; 102.5; 8.9 106.8; 105.1; 1.8; 5665.6875; 2669.53125; 2737; 2805
94; Malone; 618; 1180; 1329 -149 -476 -12.1 -7.1; -5.0; 95.8 102.8; -7.1; 107.9 110.0; -2.1; 1232.1375; 6665.10625; 6853; 7329

[Owly]

This is not relative to themselves, it's relative to the others we are comparing them to. Plus 1990 Ewing was very good in the playoffs, so I don't know what you're talking about

Yes, in 1990 he was. He wasn't generally, but people have different definitions of peak. His offensive peak was certainly in 1990, but some have argued that 93 or 94 were his actual pure peak, so it's a relevant discussion to have.

Also, whilst granting that 1990 playoffs Ewing was highly productive and you'd want to look closer to be sure on assignments and specific times shared on court and what occurred on the specific plays but rival starting centers who had tended towards being lesser players in the playoffs (insofar as such drops are "real" and the boxscore is a fair reflection) Parish and Edwards each had strong scoring series against those Knicks teams and, it would seem likely, Ewing.

[tsherkin]

Also, whilst granting that 1990 playoffs Ewing was highly productive and you'd want to look closer to be sure on assignments and specific times shared on court and what occurred on the specific plays but rival starting centers who had tended towards being lesser players in the playoffs (insofar as such drops are "real" and the boxscore is a fair reflection) Parish and Edwards each had strong scoring series against those Knicks teams and, it would seem likely, Ewing.

Indeed. They faced an old Boston team which was a fairly average defense, and then the Detroit team which won the title and ranked 2nd overall in the RS on D. In the latter series, he shot 95% at the line and 46.6% FG after shooting 55.1% during the RS. It was ultimately a decent series for Ewing, but nothing over which I'd be crowing relative to these other guys, especially in a 4-1 series loss where he blew chunks that hard on the offensive glass (old Mo Cheeks matched him...).