Defense: Scottie Pippen vs Michael Jordan

[Jordan23Forever]

This is Pippen, and really by a significant margin.

We can dismiss out of hand the opinion of anyone who says stuff like this, as I've said. lol @ anyone who acts like the gap is huge either way.

[Harison]

http://www.vimeo.com/7161677

Cheers, very nice video MJ passing lane reading and quickness was insane, damn I miss that man

[NO-KG-AI]

Does anyone argue that Jordan is more athletic, more tenacious, and more dedicated than Pippen?

Where is Pippen making up the gap? Jordan's fundamentals were what Pippen formed his defense on.

I dunno, I think it's a big issue of trying to make Jordan seem more human, but I think he was the quicker and more tenacious perimeter defender, and his instincts, IQ and tenacity on the court all surpass Pippen.

Pippen might be a little more versatile on bigger 4's, but I don't feel like Pippen was a better help defender, more disruptive, or a better defender on perimeter players, despite having a smaller workload, much less down the stretch in crunch time.

[ronnymac2]

To J23F: IIRC, MJ didn't have much success guarding Penny in the post either. I don't think one should find fault in not stopping Penny Hardaway. He was a very good post player. As for Mash, I'll take your word for it, though Mash was a damn good post scorer, too. I don't know, I don't think Pip's post d is poor relative to his other areas of d. Certainly not in his prime and latter-prime ( I can see it with younger Pip....younger players, even when good at d, need to learn how to play post d).

To the OP who responded to my previous post: I am well aware what Scottie did in 1995. Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, and Zo were in the league and dominating on defense. That means Scottie Pippen wasn't the best defensive player in the league. Not a knock on Pip though.

To NO-KG-AI: What about rebounding?

[NO-KG-AI]

Rebounding isn't that big of a difference, certainly not enough to sway it either way, and I'm not sure I even consider rebounding part of defense, I usually put it in its own category.

Either way, career RPG and rebound rate is negligible, considering Pippen was a forward anyway.

I'm not even trying to down Pippen, but I can't see what Pippen is better in. I don't think anyone is arguing he is more athletic, or more tenacious, or smarter, or more fundamentally sound are they? Maybe it's his size?

I'm just not sure what asset makes Pippen a more valuable defender.

I personally thought Mike was the best perimeter defender in his defensive prime, maybe that's my issue.

[ronnymac2]

The defensive rebound is the conclusion of good defense. If you don't secure it, the other team is still attacking you. The more opportunities the offense has against your defense, the more points it will get, the more tired your defense gets, etc.

If an offensive team worked together perfectly for a play, passed the ball unselfishly and crisply, and got the d so off balance that in the end, one offensive guy was standing alone with the ball under the basket....but then he simply through the ball back out as opposed to dunking it, is it a good offensive possession? Does all the passing, unselfishness, and execution matter? You need to finish the play. Same idea applies to the defensive rebound.

So yes, Scottie's advantage on the boards matters. Both were tremendous rebounders at their positions (grabbing in traffic, running down boards, etc.)...Scottie simply did it more. Why shouldn't he get the advantage?

Steals goes to Jordan. It's a small, but clear margin. Jordan is imo the best ever at getting steals. He's also a slightly better shot-blocker (maybe). Pippen is a little more versatile. When MJ is allowed to focus, he can stop a wing (especially a quick guy, and even a smaller pg) from scoring better, while Pip can stop the guy from helping his team's offense more.

So far, they are virtually equal.

Where Scottie separates himself imo is that he takes away what the team offense wants to do. He's better than any perimeter player ever at this. He literally takes away certain aspects of offense on the court. He's probably the best I've ever seen as denying post-entry passes. He suffocates cross-court passing lanes (not just with steals, but with his positioning and length). He snuffs out pick-n-roll plays. He understands trapping better than any player I've ever personally seen in this era besides maybe Kevin Garnett. He makes wings catch the ball farther out than they want by pressuring the wing-entry passer to take a different angle to make the pass. He roves and recovers easily.

I just think Scottie does things that bigs do, but from the perimeter. Now, he can't actually do what bigs do on d because he simply can't defend the actual basket area (the most important area to defend) as effectively as they can, but he does those things out on the perimeter better than anybody I've ever seen- even MJ. Not a knock on Jordan or anybody else, but that's how I see it.

[NO-KG-AI]

The difference in rebounding is so minuscule that it's about insignificant though. Jordan is a career 6.2 rebounds per game, with a rebound rate of 9.4%, while Scottie was career 6.4 per game, with a rebound rate of 10.6%.

He's better, but It's really minor, and I look at rebounding as its own part of the game, because if a guy shoots 100% on you, rebounding isnt a skill you can use to help deter his offense

But either way, I don't think Scottie was better at ball denial, trapping, or denying post entry. I think a lot of people remember the older Jordan more, and I think in the latter years, Scottie was the better defender, because as they aged, his size became a more distinct tool.

Prime for Prime, I'm taking Mike though.

[BrutallyHonest]

Does anyone argue that Jordan is more athletic, more tenacious, and more dedicated than Pippen?

Where is Pippen making up the gap? Jordan's fundamentals were what Pippen formed his defense on.

I dunno, I think it's a big issue of trying to make Jordan seem more human, but I think he was the quicker and more tenacious perimeter defender, and his instincts, IQ and tenacity on the court all surpass Pippen.

Pippen might be a little more versatile on bigger 4's, but I don't feel like Pippen was a better help defender, more disruptive, or a better defender on perimeter players, despite having a smaller workload, much less down the stretch in crunch time.

There's no gap to make up. Pippen was just as tenacious a perimeter (and post) defender as Jordan...on-ball, ball denial, help defense, whatever. You talk about Jordan's IQ surpassing Pippen's? How? Pippen was the one reading offenses and basically QB'ing the Bulls defense and constantly communicating with teammates telling guys when (and where) to double while keeping tabs on his own man. Even in the 2000 playoffs I remember KG and Flip Saunders marveling at Pippen's IQ because he was deciphering their play calling and telling the Blazer players how to react. And if one of his teammates were out of position he wouldn't hesitate to step in the lane to take a charge on any player. I can't remember the last time I saw Jordan give up his body to take a charge on anybody. And that's what separates Pippen and Jordan to me. While Pippen got the steals and blocks he also constantly did stuff that didn't show up on the stat sheet while MJ didn't. That's why I think he's a better defender overall.

[Jordan23Forever]

[qPippen was the one reading offenses and basically QB'ing the Bulls defense and constantly communicating with teammates telling guys when (and where) to double while keeping tabs on his own man.

Right. And Jordan did none of that - he was just roaming around aimlessly out there. People who say stuff like this really drank the Pippen Kool-Aid. They read a couple of articles highlighting Pippen's defense and assumed that he was everything to everyone on the defensive end for that team. It's crazy.

I can't remember the last time I saw Jordan give up his body to take a charge on anybody.

Hence why you shouldn't be commenting in this topic. Jordan drew plenty of charges - probably more than any perimeter player of that era save for Pippen himself.

And that's what separates Pippen and Jordan to me. While Pippen got the steals and blocks he also constantly did stuff that didn't show up on the stat sheet while MJ didn't.

Right. Jordan didn't do things that didn't show up in the stat sheet. I guess this is what people have to convince themselves of to make an argument. Jordan is the best help defender in history, but he didn't do anything defensively that didn't show up in the stat sheet - no charges taken, no deflections that resulted in an out of bounds, no cutting off passing angles to take away post play, no quick rotations and closeouts to shooters, forcing them to put the ball on the floor and cause a shot clock violation. He did nothing non-statistical on defense. Hysterical. Do yourself a favor and go watch some games, preferably from '89-'93.

[NY Kicks]

Very close one, and I will say Pippen...

[NO-KG-AI]

I can't take anyone seriously that thinks Pippen's tenacity or IQ were up their with MJ's.

[Optms]

I'm leaning towards MJ.

[Frosty]

I can't take anyone seriously that thinks Pippen's tenacity or IQ were up their with MJ's.

I can't knock Pips Defensive IQ, Phil said Pippen was one of the smartest defensive floor generals he's seen. Phil would yell at a guy for being in a different position on D then what he told him and if the guy replied "Pippen told me to do this" he'd just say ok.

[Barstool Blues]

I can't take anyone seriously that thinks Pippen's tenacity or IQ were up their with MJ's.

Uh...Jackson himself said Pippen learned the triangle offense faster then Jordan and ANYONE in general. Not to mention he had the most difficult role in the offense. Defensively, as someone said when he was on the Blazers, opposing coaches have said how Pippen would call out what the offense was about to do before they even knew what they were going to do. His Basketball IQ is second to no one. Scottie definitely had a better grasp of TEAM BASKETBALL (5 on 5) then Jordan did. MJ may be the greatest individual player of all time, but that doesn't mean his basketball IQ was the highest.

That's why it always annoys me when people say Jordan made others around him better...he did not raise the level of their play, Pippen did with his work as the teams facilitator and overall intelligence on what makes a team run at a high level. He was the one who would make sure players that were cold got their touches so they could get going, he was the one that would pat you on the back while the **** Jordan was berating you. His ability to make others around him better is clearly visible in the 94 season when they won 55 games. And really they could have won 57 just like in 93 or more if Pippen hadn't missed 10 games in which the Bulls went 4-6 in. In 93, Jordan, Pippen, and Grant all played at least 79 games each. The "making others around you better" phrase is thrown around way too much, but Pippen was actually a player who did that. He never cared to actually take 20+ shots like Jordan or others...his career high was in fact in 1994 at 17.8. He was about making sure the team ran as a cohesive unit and at a high level.

[Jordan23Forever]

This dude Barstool Blues is hysterical. Really drank all the Pippen Kool-Aid and came back for seconds.

If we're going to take Jackson at his word, then realize that Jackson called Jordan "the best defensive player of his generation" in the mid-90's.

[Barstool Blues]

Coming from someone with the name: Jordan23forever...i'll take that as a compliment.