Retro POY '00-01 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

You have to explain why you put Carter above Iverson. We don’t have +/- data for 2001 season, but if your reasoning is as above then it still don’t explain why 2001 Carter > 2001 AI because according o Ilardi’s 6 seasons +/- Carter and Iverson were at the same level. Besides, for god sake, +/- isn’t the holy grail!

I think 2001 Carter was far better than any version from 2003-2008 period. therefore he can still destroy AI in +/- and if you look at how his team did without him, it supports that theory.

Eh, you've got some points here, but I don't think you're being fair to Iverson. You seem to be basically be penalizing Iverson for putting up big numbers in later years with the reasoning "he was as good in those later years and he didn't have +/- impact, so he must never have had that impact". Problem with that is that when a team comes together as a cohesive unit, it doesn't make sense to just attribute the good that comes out of that to the supporting cast. Again, 2nd best guy on this team (Mutombo) was there only part of the season - and the team was great before he arrived. Give the supporting cast their due, but don't pretend that those guys were all hidden stars.

[Doctor MJ]

Bottom line is that +/- data which is available for us doesn’t show Carter’s advantage so you can’t use this as a argument.

Eh, yes and no. Not a very strong argument for convincing other people, but if you put stock in +/- stats it makes sense to try think them through even when they're not there. Silly to pretend that Iverson doesn't have a history of disappointing +/-. That said, any such use I think has to be done with great care. +/- is more than anything else, a measure of how well that player is doing within the team strategy. So a player whose +/- disappoints when the team isn't doing that well, isn't necessarily going to keep doing poorly when a team achieves good chemistry.

[tha_rock220]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Iverson
4. Kobe
5. Webber

[Silver Bullet]

mysticbb and bastillon – how you guys explain Carter (or Allen...) in top 5 and Iverson off the list? AI was better in regular season and playoffs, he won head to head matchup with Carter (h2h seems very important to you bastillon) and still you leave him off…. how it’s possible? The same question to Gongxi (Kidd in top 5, AI off the list)

Saying AI "won" the post-season match-up is not accurate at all - I remember every single second of that series as if it were yesterday - It was at best a tie.

And the only reason the 76ers won that series was because Carter missed a jumper - on the buzzer, in game 7, on Iverson's homecourt - by barely a millimeter, if that. That is as close to a tie a series has ever been.

I don't like if's and buts - but if you're giving Iverson an edge for making it to the Finals - realize that it is as small an edge as can possibly be.

And I like Iverson too - I realize some of you might be penalizing him for being "a bad defender", he wasn't. Prime Iverson wrecked havoc in the passing lanes. Being a good man-defender is not necessary to have a great impact on defense. He might've been an average defender on most teams - but on the 01 Sixers, when everybody's got your back, a defensive team in it's absolute prime - you take that guy a 100 times out of a 100 on defense.

I don't think putting prime Carter over Iverson or viceversa should need an explanation.

Carter was by far the best player at the Sydney Olympics - Zo, KG both were on record stating he was by far the best player. They had a one on one tournament in practice and he blew everybody away. That might not be relevant to some of you - but for me, it is.

I think people let hindsight color their impressions a little bit too much -
00-01 Carter and 00-01 Bryant at the time were considered inseperable. There was even talk in the 01 off season about doing a Kobe for Carter swap - because Carter would get a long better with Shaq.

[ElGee]

My 2001 POY Ballot:

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Allen Iverson

I think most of these have been hashed out well in the thread, and explained by voters with similar ballots quite well.

Shaq's a slam dunk. Duncan is an easy second to me. I'm trying to be consistent, so from 3-5 I might not necessarily rank them that way in order of best player at the time, but they're close and Kobe had a great season (despite some time missed) and great playoffs. Iverson was really quite impressive and edges players like Webber (what happened in the postseason?) Carter and McGrady.

[Silver Bullet]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Carter
5. Iverson

I don't know about 3-5, if people really object, I might change it up -

I don't like Duncan at 3, after what was suppossed to be the greatest series in NBA history, turned out to be sweep.

I don't like leaving out Mutombo - without whom, the 76ers wouldn't even be in the conversation... but I don't know if he really belongs.

Really weird season - there was only 1 contender really, and I don't like putting people on non-contenders on my MVP list, unless the team massively overachieves.

[lorak]

mysticbb and bastillon – how you guys explain Carter (or Allen...) in top 5 and Iverson off the list? AI was better in regular season and playoffs, he won head to head matchup with Carter (h2h seems very important to you bastillon) and still you leave him off…. how it’s possible? The same question to Gongxi (Kidd in top 5, AI off the list)

Saying AI "won" the post-season match-up is not accurate at all - I remember every single second of that series as if it were yesterday - It was at best a tie.

And the only reason the 76ers won that series was because Carter missed a jumper - on the buzzer, in game 7, on Iverson's homecourt - by barely a millimeter, if that. That is as close to a tie a series has ever been.

I don't like if's and buts - but if you're giving Iverson an edge for making it to the Finals - realize that it is as small an edge as can possibly be.

And I like Iverson too - I realize some of you might be penalizing him for being "a bad defender", he wasn't. Prime Iverson wrecked havoc in the passing lanes. Being a good man-defender is not necessary to have a great impact on defense. He might've been an average defender on most teams - but on the 01 Sixers, when everybody's got your back, a defensive team in it's absolute prime - you take that guy a 100 times out of a 100 on defense.

I don't think putting prime Carter over Iverson or viceversa should need an explanation.

Carter was by far the best player at the Sydney Olympics - Zo, KG both were on record stating he was by far the best player. They had a one on one tournament in practice and he blew everybody away. That might not be relevant to some of you - but for me, it is.

I think people let hindsight color their impressions a little bit too much -
00-01 Carter and 00-01 Bryant at the time were considered inseperable. There was even talk in the 01 off season about doing a Kobe for Carter swap - because Carter would get a long better with Shaq.

Good post, I completely forgot about Olympics. But still it was IMO Iverson’s year, not Carter’s. Sure, if that one shot goes in I would vote differently, but this project is about judging what in fact happened.

[NO-KG-AI]

Carter just missed the cut for me, because I don't really buy that he or Iverson were better players than Garnett.

[Optimism Prime]

Good post on Carter/Iverson there. I too forgot the Olympics... and that's enough to sway me here. Carter's #5, original vote updated.

[Sedale Threatt]

Carter just missed the cut for me, because I don't really buy that he or Iverson were better players than Garnett.

They weren't, not unless we're only looking at one end of the court.

[NO-KG-AI]

Carter just missed the cut for me, because I don't really buy that he or Iverson were better players than Garnett.

They weren't, not unless we're only looking at one end of the court.

But he'll get left off so other guys finish higher than him in some ballots

[TMACFORMVP]

1. Shaquille O'neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Allen Iverson
5. Kevin Garnett

[CellarDoor]

1. Shaq- I can't imagine anything needs to be said here.
2. Duncan- Still nothing we haven't heard before.
3. Garnett- Kobe was a fantastic defender at this point, but I'm going with KG's better defense, better rebounding, similar passing.
4. Kobe- I can't see an argument for him to be any further down.
5. Webber- I'm probably in the minority here, but I'll take him over AI anyday in this season. 4 points or so off in scoring, did it more efficiently, was actually as good if not a better passer than AI ever was out of that high post, and, similar to Kobe and KG, he's got a rebounding and defensive edge (yeah I said it, CWebb is better than someone defensively)

[ElGee]

^^^ Agree. Surprised how little attention Webber is getting here.

[Silver Bullet]

Ah - I looked at him- but the Lakers sweep just - I mean, yeah they swept everyone, but it's hard to say a guy was MVP material when his team gets swept. I mean, AI - maybe you don't think he was as good as Webber or any of the other guys - but he single handedly won that game. The Lakers only defeat of the post-season and it was on the back of one guy.

I'm going off of memory here - I don't know how many points he scored or whatever, but I don't remember it as the Sixers shooting lights out or something.

[Baller 24]

1) Shaq
2) Duncan
3) Bryant
4) Iverson
5) Garnett

[Sedale Threatt]

^^^ Agree. Surprised how little attention Webber is getting here.

Look at the playoffs. Not just the sweep, but his individual performance.

[Baller 24]

Yup, TS% 42....that's just outright terrible.

[ElGee]

Yeah but it's 4 games. How much does that downgrade him as a player?

[bastillon]

1. Shaquille O'neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Allen Iverson
5. Kevin Garnett

I'd like to hear your reasoning for Duncan at 2 and Garnett at 5 when there was so little seperating them. no offense, just curious.