Does Dirk with title surpass KG

[NO-KG-AI]

You raise a valid point, when the league became 2 on 2 and KG/Rasho was able to be compared to the Spurs team of Duncan/Rasho that made things clear.

Duncan/Rasho = elite defense

KG/Rasho= Elite offense

Clearly you agree that KG is far superior to Duncan offensively. Duncan and Rasho were 16th offensively. WOW!!! Duncan can't anchor an offense.

You know why you don't see small guys guarding prime KG? Because KG abused small forwards. Things like Golden State turning Dirk into a biatch wouldn't happen, because it would look like when KG played the Suns, he'd crap all over every 6'7 guy they throw at him.

[colts18]

You raise a valid point, when the league became 2 on 2 and KG/Rasho was able to be compared to the Spurs team of Duncan/Rasho that made things clear.

Duncan/Rasho = elite defense

KG/Rasho= Elite offense

Clearly you agree that KG is far superior to Duncan offensively. Duncan and Rasho were 16th offensively. WOW!!! Duncan can't anchor an offense.

You know why you don't see small guys guarding prime KG? Because KG abused small forwards. Things like Golden State turning Dirk into a biatch wouldn't happen, because it would look like when KG played the Suns, he'd crap all over every 6'7 guy they throw at him.

But KG got punked by Chris Bosh in the playoffs.

[NO-KG-AI]

IS that a serious response? BEcause KG is old and broken, Bosh is in his prime, and KG outproduced him on both ends. Bosh averaged 12.8 points on 40% shooting.

[richboy]

Do you have proof of that Magic strategy? I've never heard about it before and it's pretty freakin stupid considering how often the defensive team recovers blocked shots.

And using Dwight vs. Bogut head to head matchups is pretty irrelevant considering how much better Dwight is offensively...

Watch a Magic game and you'll hear them say it. They pretty much told him to catch it or hit it hard somewhere. He tries to catch up but feels like officials will call it goal tending more if he catches it So if he can he'll send it in the stands or across the gym.

Not sure what you mean how often the defensive teams recovers block shots. 82games said a block shot goes back to the offense 43% of the time when it stays in bounds. When the offense gets the ball back the defense is often out of place just like it would be if it was an offensive rebound.

This isn't a stat comparison. This is a fact that Dwight doesn't seem to bothered going up against Bogut. While Bogut can barely score. Bogut isn't a bad offensive player in his career.

What the Magic do works. To get back to the KGs impact stuff. Orlando Magic was by far the team that was most difficult to get in the paint against. Only 20 shots per game at the rim. This is a team that started non-shotblockers at every position. Brandon Bass at PF who is more like 6'6.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs.a ... 11&type=pg

On the flip side. KG's last year in Minnesota they were one of the easiest to get to the rim on.

[drza]

Duncan with Rasho = one of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.
KG with Rasho = mediocre defense

That was a proven reality.

Can you not see why this is disingenuous?

When Duncan played with Rasho for 30 mpg, he also was playing with arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation (9-time All Defensive team Bruce Bowen, with attending strong APM stats), with another extremely strong perimeter defender in Manu Ginobili, and playing for one of the better defensive coaches in the league.

When KG played with Rasho for 30 mpg, he was also playing with arguably the worst perimeter defender of his generation (Troy Hudson, who later was described as "playing a game on the defensive end that is not remotely like anyone else’s in the league"), with another extremely weak perimeter defender in Wally Szczerbiak, and playing for one of the lesser defensive coaches in the league.

In your opinion, is that really a remotely similar situation? Enough to be called "a proven reality"?

Its as much elite as calling Joe Johnson Elite. As calling Scottie Pippen elite. In my book Elite means your at the top. Best of the best. I can compare Dirk to any elite level scorer of his era. Right now I can make a case he still a better offensive player than Kevin Durant. KG has never been in that class.
...
I think I said why its not elite. What is your definition of elite. My definition is the best of the best. Joe Johnson consistently puts up 20 and 5. Do you consider him elite. If you do then me and your definition of elite is very different. I'm talking about has KG even been a top 5 offensive player in this league.

Like I said most years he barely 20 points per game scorer per 36. Most years he is 20 and 5 in the first 36 minutes. Those are really good numbers. He plays heavy minutes though so his numbers get skewed overall. In some years Duncan is putting up comparable numbers playing a lot less minutes.

IMO you can't just build an elite offensive with KG. You might put up some nice stats. When the playoffs come around your going to be looking for offense. There is a reason why Minnesota best year they added 2 offensive players. Even though apparently Minnesota had elite offenses for years. When the game was on the line they could start running plays for Sam Cassell.

One thing that drives me crazy. People will constantly bash a players teammates. That is fine to me. At the same time you can't rave about his numbers then. In essence people are saying then he is being force fed the ball because his teammates aren't that good. Does anybody think anymore that Chris Bosh could have been the best offensive player on a championship team. I would say the exact same thing with KG.

Here's the thing. At his peak, KG led the entire NBA in points scored (2nd in ppg) while also leading all big men in assists for a top-5 offense in the league. In the two seasons surrounding that one, he led his team in both scoring and assists while also leading two more top offenses. Peak KG led the NBA in heavily offensive-based advanced stats like PER and win shares. As I pointed out before, from 2003-04 thru 2008-09 KG was 6th in the NBA in offensive APM (behind only Nash, LeBron, Kobe, Paul, and Wade). And then, when finally paired with two other strong offensive players (past his peak), KG still led the team in both scoring and 4th quarter scoring on a championship run.

Now, you might be just a "good" offensive player and match 1 or 2 things in there. You might end up with "just" an All Star caliber wing that averages 20 and 5, or "just" an All Star caliber big man that can lead a weak team in scoring but fall to a tertiary role on a champion, or even an outstanding forward that can lead an average offense in points and assists. But there are no non-elite offensive players in NBA history that can match that type of offensive resume that I just posted for KG. The Joe Johnsons and Chris Boshes and Scottie Pippens of the world can't approach that type of across-the-board quality, from individual box scores to team impact to advanced stats confirmation for multiple years at a time. If you can find some counter-examples of such players that you don't consider offensively elite (besides KG, of course) I would be very happy to see them.

[richboy]

Here some issues I have.

Before KG left Minnesota was already falling. They were 21 in the league in defense. Forget the fact I can't imagine a team with Dwight Howard on it being at the botton of the league in defense. Fact is its very possible Minny was going to be a bad defense with or without KG. Also would point out that they replaced KG with a horrible defensive big in Al Jefferson.

One reason I like having these kinds of debates is that I often learn something I didn't know. See, I didn't come to my conclusions by looking at the stats...I used to watch the Wolves play on a regular basis and it was blatant that KG's impact was huge, but it wasn't until later on with the advent of the advanced stats that there were tools to quantitatively show it. I was reminded of this just now because, in order to rebut this point I had to go back and look again at that "21st" ranked Wolves defense in 2007. And in doing so, I learned something yet again.

KG sat out 6 games in the 2006-07 season. During those 6 absences, the Wolves gave up 117.5 points/game on 51% shooting from the field. I point this out here not as another argument for how bad the cast was (though seriously, look at those numbers again), but instead because those 6 games were SO bad that they actually skewed the overall results for the year. After spending some time navigating the complex way B-R calculates team defensive rating, I was able to quantify just how much those 6 games changed things:

overall season: Wolves DRtg = 107.9 (21st in NBA)
6 games w/o KG: Wolves DRTG = 121.6 (on pace for worst in NBA by FAR)
76 games w/ KG: Wolves DRTG = 106.5 (tied for 14th in NBA)

Again, the point isn't to pile on for how bad KG's teammates were (should be self evident by now). In fact, you can actually ignore the 6 games KG didn't play if you want to, because the more germane point is that when KG DID play the Wolves weren't one of the worst defenses in the league. In fact, they were again right there at league average.

Which means that most of your points in this paragraph no longer have any basis. KG didn't lead a bottom-feeding defense in 2007, despite having a putrid cast. Which also means that you can't really support the notion that the Wolves were likely to have a terrible defense in '08 with or without KG. Which, again, makes their immediate fall to arguably THE worst defense in the league since KG left more support for just how much heavy lifting KG was doing in Minnesota.

My next issue is KG pulled Minny up to mediocre defense. That very well may be possible. I just don't see how that means KG has greater impact defensively than other dominate defensive big men. Most years of Hakeem's career Houston was an elite defense. Same with Dwight, Zo, Duncan.

No question KG has impact defensively. The question is the impact as great as adjusted plus minus suggest. People are saying Dwight Howard is no KG. KG has bigger impact than Tim Duncan. I'm just looking and wondering what is this based on. Looks like by some KG is playing with a group of HS kids in Minnesota. Because the reality is the only way you can suggest KG is comparable in defensive impact to those top bigs is say well Minnesota may have had the worst starting 5 of all-time. (snip)

I snipped here because I want to keep the arguments that you're making clear. You say that you disagree with the APM results (from 2003-04 thru 2010-11), but the rest of your post talks about the Wolves during time outside of that time range. While I have absolutely no problem discussing KG's impact on the 2000 - 2003 Wolves, I want to keep this as focused as possible on the 8 year time-window where we have APM results. 8 years is plenty of time, so if you want to argue against a stat's conclusions you should be able to find sufficient support from SOME time within that window.

You say that for KG's defensive impact to have been that large in Minnesota he would have had to have been playing with the worst starting 5 of all time. While earlier in the thread I referenced a post that made that exact argument for the '07 team ( viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1075089 ), more importantly on page 11 of this thread (7th post down) I went into a reasonable amount of detail describing the casts of all of his teams from '04 - '07. And not just names, actually pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of the personnel at that particular point in their careers and how that then played out on the court. As I pointed out, the vast majority of the defenders on that team brought little if anything to the table defensively. The majority of the perimeter players were unable to prevent penetration (often without need for pick), they were unable to disrupt opponents dribble/pass lanes, they were poor on rotations, and they were poor rebounders for their position. The majority of the bigs were unable to maintain post position, were unable to offer help defense, and were also unable to rebound their positions. The one year there was even a mild change in that pattern (in '04 Erv and Madsen were able to maintain their post position...not much else, and Hassell/Spree were able to provide some degree of perimeter resistance) KG was able to take a still subpar defensive cast to among the leagues best. Other than that year, defensively, he WAS leading some of the worst defensive casts in the NBA.

Conclusions: Here is where it's important that we come to some kind of consensus on what the +/- stats are saying. Because subjectively, I can say that the Minnesota casts were awful and the Boston cast has frankly become overrated...and you can say that I'm wrong, that the Minnesota cast wasn't that bad and the Boston defensive cast is "elite". And we essentially stale-mate at that point, because it's opinion against opinion.

But if I point out that the '07 Wolves had an average defensive rating when KG played and an abysmal 122 B-R DRtg in the 6 games he missed, that's not opinion. It's fact. It actually happened. For this particular data point you might argue that the sample size is too small for definite conclusions, and I'd even agree, but it is still an evidence point that actually happened.

And if I then point out that from KG's arrival in Boston in '07 until the present he has played in 268 games and missed 60 (large sample sizes each way), and that when KG has played with Rondo/Ray/Pierce/Perkins the unit's real defensive rating is a sparkling 97.3 but when that same 4 guys have played with any other big man their real defensive rating is an awful 112.1...again, this is fact. It's not my opinion. And here we're talking huge sample sizes, so there's no ambiguity.

And these are just snapshots of the data that a multi-year APM calculation measures. The job of APM is to note the differences in circumstances, and what happens in those circumstances, and over multiple years to quantify the trends. And as Doc MJ has pointed out, there are now THREE mutli-year APM calculations, spanning different sets of years, with many different KG supporting casts, calculated by different analysts, that all agree unanimously that Garnett has been having the largest defensive impact in the NBA over the last 8 years by a clear margin.

Again, my life's mission isn't to convince you that APM is perfect, or that you should even rely on it. But in this example it just seems abundantly clear. We have a player that already was one of the most decorated defensive players of the last 8 years in terms of accolades. We have a very reasonable subjective argument that he really was that good and his teammates really were that bad. Then, if you look in-depth quantitatively it is clear that his defensive impact was massive even if you try to avoid APM. Then, APM just further confirms it. If you disagree with all of that evidence, you really have to bring more to the table from within that 8-year time window than just "he can't have been that good, because if he was he'd have been as good as Larry Bird or David Robinson". That's not a counter-argument. And if that's the best one that you've got, maybe it should make you reconsider a bit where KG might deserve to slot in your personal rankings.

Don't have time to check those numbers. If you say that was the case I'll go with it.I'm still going to think that Minnesota was probably one of the worst in the league at protecting the rim. Which they were that season.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs.a ... 07&type=pg

Your still though giving me a short snipet of KG career of players he has played with. Lets not forget KG has a sample size of many years. He didn't play with horrible teammates every year defensively.

Rasho was on Minnesota. Rasho has been considered a very good to excellent defender. He goes to San Antonio and they play maybe the best defense in league history. Him and KG together was mediocre defensively.

He has played with Terrell Brandon, Chauncey Billups, Joe Smith, Anthony Peeler, Kendall Gill, Sam Mitchell, Malik Sealey. He was never anchoring an elite defense until he had 4 of the best defenders in the league in the starting lineup.

Wally Z apparently horrible defender. Lebron James had no problem with him and making the Cavs an elite defense. That team had Mo Williams, Delonte West, Varejao, and Big z.

Also your going to have to show me where the Celtics have a 112 defensive rating without KG. Because the on-court off-court numbers aren't close to that. There W/L record without KG is actually really good.

I understand your point. Like I said your point makes the stat seem worthless. By making statements that APM says KG has the biggest defensive impact of all big men in the league by far. Again BY FAR. Your suggesting BY FAR he is better than Duncan. By far he is better than Mutumbo, Howard, Mourning. Yet KG had less success than anyone. Really? You really think that with your eyes or that is your conclusion based on a stat that has major flaws. Flaws that don't get improved just because the sample size gets larger.

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/ ... nus-model/

By some in this thread. Perhaps your telling me that KG is one of the 5 greatest defensive players in the game. Maybe even higher. If this is the case I'm wondering why we aren't talking about KG in the GOAT. Of course he is better than Dirk if you think he is by far a better defensive player than Duncan.

Problem I have is what I said before. Numbers just don't show it. Minnesota mediocre defense. Dominate big men defensively aren't on mediocre defenses often. Regardless of teammates. Duncan has Rasho and they put together an all-time defense. KG has Rasho and they are mediocre. That was a team that started Hedo T and Tony Parker. I guess Bruce Bowen was the difference from being a 16th rank defense like Rasho was on Minnesota. To being on a defense with a 94 defensive rating.

My issue is it seems that APM is forming the opinion. Not anything on the court but APM says this. Therefore this must be the case. APM says this therefore the opinion is based to make APM correct. I'm sorry I don't need APM to tell me a team of Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson, Hedo T, Jameer Nelson, and Jrich would be horrible defensively. Especially since not one of those guys can really defend or rebound there position.

Its not like KG has a skillset that should advance him to a level this far above other players. Ben Wallace did all the same things. Dwight Howard now does most of the same things and a few more things. If KG was blocking 6 shots a game or absolutely beasting the league on defense maybe I could make a case. What does KG do that would make him BY FAR the best defensive big in the league.

[richboy]

You raise a valid point, when the league became 2 on 2 and KG/Rasho was able to be compared to the Spurs team of Duncan/Rasho that made things clear.

Duncan/Rasho = elite defense

KG/Rasho= Elite offense

Clearly you agree that KG is far superior to Duncan offensively. Duncan and Rasho were 16th offensively. WOW!!! Duncan can't anchor an offense.

You know why you don't see small guys guarding prime KG? Because KG abused small forwards. Things like Golden State turning Dirk into a biatch wouldn't happen, because it would look like when KG played the Suns, he'd crap all over every 6'7 guy they throw at him.

Why you telling me what wouldn't happen when KG spent most of his career not getting out of the first round. Whatever happen it happen a lot. Including to Dirk. Who lit up KG in the playoffs.

The reason why people do those things is they have to find reasons to slow Dirk down. Remind you he is one of the best post season players of all-time. So whatever they are doing its not working that well. Good job though trying to cherry pick on one bad series.

Can you say KG can carry a team offensively in the playoffs to success. You can't say yes because he hasn't done it. I'll show you.

Again I keep hearing Minnesota was elite offensively. Why did they go out and get offensive players then. Are we suggesting Minnesota was elite offensively because offensive rating said that. Offensive rating said the Portland Trailblazers were elite offensively. Yet they never can score in the playoffs.

Guess what I'm hearing now that Mike Brown is back in the NBA. Suddenly Mike Brown and others are suggesting Cleveland was good offensively. Top 5 offense I hear. Yet again in the playoffs they struggled to score.

Your offense is tested in the playoffs. In 00 Minny eliminated by Portland in the playoffs. You call there offense elite. IN the playoffs they managed 80 ppg in 3 losses. In 01 you probably say there offense was elite. In 3 losses in the playoffs they scored 82, 69, and 84 points. Played a bad Laker defense in the 03 playoffs and in the 4 losses got around 95 points per game. Even the next year with Cassell and Spree they struggled to put up points in the playoffs. Sacramento Kings who were not a great defense held the Wolves under 100 in every game of the series except 1. Under 90 in 4 of them. It took them until game 5 to reach 90 points against the Lakers. Although to be fair they did loose Cassell.

Say it again. "Elite offense". Based on what. The Wolves are struggling to get to 80 points in the playoffs. There is nothing Elite about that.

Just to note Rasho with Duncan the Spurs defense was Historic. Not matter what you believe KG was not better than Duncan on offense.

[Rapcity_11]

Do you have proof of that Magic strategy? I've never heard about it before and it's pretty freakin stupid considering how often the defensive team recovers blocked shots.

And using Dwight vs. Bogut head to head matchups is pretty irrelevant considering how much better Dwight is offensively...

Watch a Magic game and you'll hear them say it. They pretty much told him to catch it or hit it hard somewhere. He tries to catch up but feels like officials will call it goal tending more if he catches it So if he can he'll send it in the stands or across the gym.

Not sure what you mean how often the defensive teams recovers block shots. 82games said a block shot goes back to the offense 43% of the time when it stays in bounds. When the offense gets the ball back the defense is often out of place just like it would be if it was an offensive rebound.

This isn't a stat comparison. This is a fact that Dwight doesn't seem to bothered going up against Bogut. While Bogut can barely score. Bogut isn't a bad offensive player in his career.

What the Magic do works. To get back to the KGs impact stuff. Orlando Magic was by far the team that was most difficult to get in the paint against. Only 20 shots per game at the rim. This is a team that started non-shotblockers at every position. Brandon Bass at PF who is more like 6'6.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs.a ... 11&type=pg

On the flip side. KG's last year in Minnesota they were one of the easiest to get to the rim on.

Who is them? I'm not trying to be a dick, I actually don't know what you mean...

If a block goes to the offense 43% of the time then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that keeping it in bounds is CLEARLY more intelligent. Let's say the ball goes out of bounds and the opposing team converts the next shot attempt 35% of the time. Now let's say the shot stays in bounds and the opposing team converts those opportunities at 70%. That works out to about 30% chance of them scoring (0.43x0.7). That's being awfully generous to your side as well and it's still worse that way. I didn't even mention blocked shots starting fast breaks.

Bogut is a pretty mediocre offensive player. The numbers support this. Plus, help defense is far more valuable from those 2 anyway.

[#1 pick]

KG career wise is better compared to Dirk.
Duncan>>Malone and KG>Dirk

[richboy]

Duncan with Rasho = one of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.
KG with Rasho = mediocre defense

That was a proven reality.

Can you not see why this is disingenuous?

When Duncan played with Rasho for 30 mpg, he also was playing with arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation (9-time All Defensive team Bruce Bowen, with attending strong APM stats), with another extremely strong perimeter defender in Manu Ginobili, and playing for one of the better defensive coaches in the league.

When KG played with Rasho for 30 mpg, he was also playing with arguably the worst perimeter defender of his generation (Troy Hudson, who later was described as "playing a game on the defensive end that is not remotely like anyone else’s in the league"), with another extremely weak perimeter defender in Wally Szczerbiak, and playing for one of the lesser defensive coaches in the league.

In your opinion, is that really a remotely similar situation? Enough to be called "a proven reality"?

Think I addressed that. I asked the question. Your telling me that assuming Rasho is the same Rasho. Assuming that KG >>> Duncan on defense. Hedo and Parker not great defenders. Manu is coming off the bench. This isn't Manu like we see today. This is a young inexperience Manu who barely was in the rotation the year before. He isn't even playing 19 minutes a game. Your pretty much saying that those minutes of Manu and Bruce Bowen is what makes the Spurs a Historic defense with a 94 defensive rating.

On the flip side. Rasho playing with KG. Same amount of minutes. Wally Z I think very comparable to Hedo T. Chauncey Billups and Terrell Brandon. Both probably better defenders than Tony Parker. Anothony Peeler was no Bruce Bowen but a solid perimeter defender. Was 15th in the league in defense. Bruce Bowen and Manu had that kind of impact. Even though I hear KG >>> Duncan on defense. They didn't have Troy Hudson then. Added him the following year with Kendall Gill. Another solid defender.

Its as much elite as calling Joe Johnson Elite. As calling Scottie Pippen elite. In my book Elite means your at the top. Best of the best. I can compare Dirk to any elite level scorer of his era. Right now I can make a case he still a better offensive player than Kevin Durant. KG has never been in that class.
...
I think I said why its not elite. What is your definition of elite. My definition is the best of the best. Joe Johnson consistently puts up 20 and 5. Do you consider him elite. If you do then me and your definition of elite is very different. I'm talking about has KG even been a top 5 offensive player in this league.

Like I said most years he barely 20 points per game scorer per 36. Most years he is 20 and 5 in the first 36 minutes. Those are really good numbers. He plays heavy minutes though so his numbers get skewed overall. In some years Duncan is putting up comparable numbers playing a lot less minutes.

IMO you can't just build an elite offensive with KG. You might put up some nice stats. When the playoffs come around your going to be looking for offense. There is a reason why Minnesota best year they added 2 offensive players. Even though apparently Minnesota had elite offenses for years. When the game was on the line they could start running plays for Sam Cassell.

One thing that drives me crazy. People will constantly bash a players teammates. That is fine to me. At the same time you can't rave about his numbers then. In essence people are saying then he is being force fed the ball because his teammates aren't that good. Does anybody think anymore that Chris Bosh could have been the best offensive player on a championship team. I would say the exact same thing with KG.

Here's the thing. At his peak, KG led the entire NBA in points scored (2nd in ppg) while also leading all big men in assists for a top-5 offense in the league. In the two seasons surrounding that one, he led his team in both scoring and assists while also leading two more top offenses. Peak KG led the NBA in heavily offensive-based advanced stats like PER and win shares. As I pointed out before, from 2003-04 thru 2008-09 KG was 6th in the NBA in offensive APM (behind only Nash, LeBron, Kobe, Paul, and Wade). And then, when finally paired with two other strong offensive players (past his peak), KG still led the team in both scoring and 4th quarter scoring on a championship run.

Now, you might be just a "good" offensive player and match 1 or 2 things in there. You might end up with "just" an All Star caliber wing that averages 20 and 5, or "just" an All Star caliber big man that can lead a weak team in scoring but fall to a tertiary role on a champion, or even an outstanding forward that can lead an average offense in points and assists. But there are no non-elite offensive players in NBA history that can match that type of offensive resume that I just posted for KG. The Joe Johnsons and Chris Boshes and Scottie Pippens of the world can't approach that type of across-the-board quality, from individual box scores to team impact to advanced stats confirmation for multiple years at a time. If you can find some counter-examples of such players that you don't consider offensively elite (besides KG, of course) I would be very happy to see them.[/quote]

You can read my previous post about the Minnesota offenses. To summarize they couldn't score in the playoffs so why are people calling them elite.

AT KG peak Garnett scored 24 points on 20 shots. Played 40 minutes a game. Number 2 in scoring only because the Lakers stacked the team so that Shaq and Kobe stop being at the top. Dirk had to share the ball with Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker. Allen Iverson got injured so he wasn't eligible.

I give him his credit as a passer. Like I said when this thread started though. KG played in a high post offense which was very advantageous to racking up assist. To me the assist is the most overrated stat in basketball. KG racked up more assist than Shaq but doesn't create nearly as many wide open looks. KG is running that offense which is fine. In a similar offense Brad Miller averaged 5 apg. He wasn't creating offense just running the offense. The day Flip Saunders was fired those assist numbers dropped quickly.

If you put a lot of big men in that offense they will rack up assist because they are easy assist. KG is a great big to put in that offense because he can shoot the ball. If KG played his entire career in the offense he plays in Boston he be lucky to get 4 apg.

I've heard some compare KG to Webber as a passer. IMO that is ridiculous. Webber as a rookie was 4 apg. He was getting 5 apg before playing in that High post Princeton offense. Was often still in the low post in the offense. In some years played with Brad Miller, Vlade, and himself. If Webber played as the only big in that offense he could have put up PG like assist numbers.

[colts18]

Kg has only won 1 series in his career where his team wasn't the favorite (vs. Cavs) and that has an asterisk on it. Compare that to Dirk where he beat the Lakers this year which is more impressive than any of KG's playoff victories. Dirk also beat San Antonio in 06.

[NO-KG-AI]

KG won a title. Dirk lost a title as a favorite, up 2 games to 0 with a huge lead at the end of game 3. Dirk lost in the first round to the WARRIORS when his team won 67 games. There is nothing KG can do for the rest of his basketball career that can ever be as bad as those two things.

Dirk might have grown some balls a few years too late.

[sweet daddy]

KG won a title. Dirk lost a title as a favorite, up 2 games to 0 with a huge lead at the end of game 3. Dirk lost in the first round to the WARRIORS when his team won 67 games. There is nothing KG can do for the rest of his basketball career that can ever be as bad as those two things.

Dirk might have grown some balls a few years too late.

I think this is the quintessential NO-KG-AI quote concerning KG and Dirk. You should just save this so you can cut and paste it into every comparison thread about these two from now on. Save yourself some time.

I HATE DIRK. (we get it)

[Masigond]

KG won a title. Dirk lost a title as a favorite, up 2 games to 0 with a huge lead at the end of game 3. Dirk lost in the first round to the WARRIORS when his team won 67 games. There is nothing KG can do for the rest of his basketball career that can ever be as bad as those two things.

Dirk might have grown some balls a few years too late.

You're not serious to compare the 2008 Celtics with two other experienced co-stars who where first option players on their former teams to the 2006 and 2007 Mavs where there were not enough other players to step into the breach as Nowitzki struggled.

Don't act if KG did it all alone. He had a couple of series without much help on the Wolves team himself, and somehow he did not grow enough balls as well to overcome it.

Your agenda is clear but your presentation is quite flawed.

[ahonui06]

I don't see how DIRK wouldn't surpass KG with a title.

They would both have 1 and DIRK doesn't have The Truth Paul Pierce and Ray Allen on his team.

[richboy]

Do you have proof of that Magic strategy? I've never heard about it before and it's pretty freakin stupid considering how often the defensive team recovers blocked shots.

And using Dwight vs. Bogut head to head matchups is pretty irrelevant considering how much better Dwight is offensively...

Watch a Magic game and you'll hear them say it. They pretty much told him to catch it or hit it hard somewhere. He tries to catch up but feels like officials will call it goal tending more if he catches it So if he can he'll send it in the stands or across the gym.

Not sure what you mean how often the defensive teams recovers block shots. 82games said a block shot goes back to the offense 43% of the time when it stays in bounds. When the offense gets the ball back the defense is often out of place just like it would be if it was an offensive rebound.

This isn't a stat comparison. This is a fact that Dwight doesn't seem to bothered going up against Bogut. While Bogut can barely score. Bogut isn't a bad offensive player in his career.

What the Magic do works. To get back to the KGs impact stuff. Orlando Magic was by far the team that was most difficult to get in the paint against. Only 20 shots per game at the rim. This is a team that started non-shotblockers at every position. Brandon Bass at PF who is more like 6'6.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs.a ... 11&type=pg

On the flip side. KG's last year in Minnesota they were one of the easiest to get to the rim on.

Who is them? I'm not trying to be a dick, I actually don't know what you mean...

If a block goes to the offense 43% of the time then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that keeping it in bounds is CLEARLY more intelligent. Let's say the ball goes out of bounds and the opposing team converts the next shot attempt 35% of the time. Now let's say the shot stays in bounds and the opposing team converts those opportunities at 70%. That works out to about 30% chance of them scoring (0.43x0.7). That's being awfully generous to your side as well and it's still worse that way. I didn't even mention blocked shots starting fast breaks.

Bogut is a pretty mediocre offensive player. The numbers support this. Plus, help defense is far more valuable from those 2 anyway.

I understand. Some though suggest that Bogut is a better position defender. You watch Dwight go up against a Kendrick Perkins you see how great position defense can effect a players game. I don't know if Bogut is a great individual perimeter defender. He at least isn't against Dwight. There isn't a ton of great centers in the league so if your not doing it against Dwight who are you doing it against.

Why the Magic like this approach is really up to them. I'm not sure what type of shots are being sent into the stands and how that compares to potential offensive rebounds. Most block shots on layups or dunks are returned to the defense at a much higher rate. Usually there is no option to block this out of bounds or inbounds. This may be true with Orlando as well. Some other type of shots they may feel just swat out of bounds because the offensive rebound potential is higher.

[richboy]

KG won a title. Dirk lost a title as a favorite, up 2 games to 0 with a huge lead at the end of game 3. Dirk lost in the first round to the WARRIORS when his team won 67 games. There is nothing KG can do for the rest of his basketball career that can ever be as bad as those two things.

Dirk might have grown some balls a few years too late.

Lets be real. The fact that Dallas went to the finals is beyond impressive. They won the tough east. There starters were

DeSagana Diop
Dirk
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry

That isn't exactly a OMG lineup. Especially since Miami had better top level talent and was a deeper team. I'm sure you had that team loosing second round to San Antonio.

Just to note now Duncan has lost in the first round as a 1 seed.

I still don't get how KG spends his entire career getting knocked out of the first round. If he made the playoffs at all. Including getting knocked out by the Mavs. Not one of those stacked Mavs teams. A team that Minnesota probably had nearly as much talent as. Yet his fans downplay all his losses and highlight any lack of success for someone else.

If KG took that group to the finals Garnett fans would calling that a historic run. Yet tell me how that roster is much different than

Rasho
KG
Wally Z
Peeler
Billups

[#1 pick]

Dirk with a average defensive C > Garnett with an average offensive C

Wait, can you elaborate on this?

Seems to me that Dirk + average defensive center = average defensive team at best (so even with a league-best offense there is a ceiling on the team, ala Mavs of the early decade).

But KG with an average offensive C could still be an elite offensive team (and an elite defensive team!).

Duncan with Rasho = one of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.
KG with Rasho = mediocre defense

That was a proven reality.

I could see the arguments over Garnett if we are talking about Dirk this year. Dirk has been something special this season.

I'd probably still pick KG though.

Dirk is still playing. Lets look back. Nobody had Hakeem even close to a top 10 player all-time till late in his career. It was two championship pushes that raised him. If Patrick Ewing had one those two titles history would have been drastically different.

You obviously missed KG's prime. There is no doubt in my mind he was an elite offensive player in his prime. You have to factor what he did on the defensive end and his rebounding when you think about his offensive game. He was consistently over 20 ppg for 10 years with the wolves, together with 5+ assists, I don't understand how that isn't elite offensive production. No, he was never a volume scorer but his offensive impact was huge for the Timberwolves. And no, his postgame wasn't, or isn't decent, he has an excellent post game with a variety of moves, it's just that he doesn't use it nearly enough to be called a post scorer. That's a diferent story though.

Its as much elite as calling Joe Johnson Elite. As calling Scottie Pippen elite. In my book Elite means your at the top. Best of the best. I can compare Dirk to any elite level scorer of his era. Right now I can make a case he still a better offensive player than Kevin Durant. KG has never been in that class.

My thing is really though, Dirk doesn't hurt you defensively, you can make a good defensive team with Dirk in the lineup, and he's a strong enough rebounder to not hurt you there either, but he's an offensive weapon, that's what you would take him for.

But how many perimeter players would you choose Dirk over? Do you trust Dirk to outscore premier wing players on a consistent basis every night? I think he's the closest big to matching a wing in terms of creating shots from anywhere, and late game situations, but I still don't think he would match even Dwyane Wade, who I wouldn't put in the top tier of offensive players all time.

Now KG will never match those guys either, but that's now what you'd be relying on when you build around him.

Even if you break them down in the all time sense, to me, KG's defense is ranked higher in comparison to league history than Dirk's offense is, and KG's offense is magnitudes higher than Dirk's defense ranks, and he's the much better rebounder.

I know I can build an elite offense around KG as the best offensive player, and I know I can build an all time great defense around KG, and I know he can lead the league in rebounding. I know I can build an all time great offense around Dirk.

You know you can build an all-time defense around KG or he can be part of it. If someone said right now I can build an all-time great defense around Joakim Noah what would you say. My thoughts is well Joakim is no question an amazing defender but unless you surround him with other great defenders his impact will be mute.

IMO KG is a lot more like Joakim Noah than Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard. Matter of fact Noah and KG are relatively identical except KG is a much better shooter. As great as they might be defensively. I'm not taking them over superior offensive players unless I know they are the anchor.

I think I said why its not elite. What is your definition of elite. My definition is the best of the best. Joe Johnson consistently puts up 20 and 5. Do you consider him elite. If you do then me and your definition of elite is very different. I'm talking about has KG even been a top 5 offensive player in this league.

Like I said most years he barely 20 points per game scorer per 36. Most years he is 20 and 5 in the first 36 minutes. Those are really good numbers. He plays heavy minutes though so his numbers get skewed overall. In some years Duncan is putting up comparable numbers playing a lot less minutes.

IMO you can't just build an elite offensive with KG. You might put up some nice stats. When the playoffs come around your going to be looking for offense. There is a reason why Minnesota best year they added 2 offensive players. Even though apparently Minnesota had elite offenses for years. When the game was on the line they could start running plays for Sam Cassell.

One thing that drives me crazy. People will constantly bash a players teammates. That is fine to me. At the same time you can't rave about his numbers then. In essence people are saying then he is being force fed the ball because his teammates aren't that good. Does anybody think anymore that Chris Bosh could have been the best offensive player on a championship team. I would say the exact same thing with KG.

You say could he match Dwade like that is a bad thing. Like Dwade is Hot Garbage. Your argument is why Dirk offensive dominance is even beyond his numbers. You have a 7 foot player who can create on the perimeter like a guard. You play against Dwade I put my SG on him and live with the results. I said this earlier in this thread. The first thing you think about when you play the Dallas Mavericks in a playoff series is who is going to guard Dirk. Suddenly you have to do things you haven't done all year. Miami has an elite PF. One of the most mobile athletic PFs in the league. He probably going to be guarded by Lebron James. Have never seen Lebron have to guard Kg.

I watch Joe play almost every game. You give him a superstar to play with, he's elite. He's not a #1 option but he is an elite #2. Joe gets too much hate when he's basically Pau Gasol level without a superstar.

[ahonui06]

^^^ Please no Joe Johnson references in a thread about DIRK.

[8 Mile Ilic]

KG won a title. Dirk lost a title as a favorite, up 2 games to 0 with a huge lead at the end of game 3. Dirk lost in the first round to the WARRIORS when his team won 67 games. There is nothing KG can do for the rest of his basketball career that can ever be as bad as those two things.

Dirk might have grown some balls a few years too late.

Come on, if you want to talk about failing in the first round look no further than KG's career playoff history when he was the #1 option on his team.

He couldn't get the job done.