RealGM Top 100 List #10

Dr Positivity · Post #201 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:37 pm

Everything after 75 looks pretty rough for me for Frazier. 76 was going decently but only 59 Gs. No all-star teams after that, after being 1st team All-NBA as late as 75. So I'd say 7 great years (69-75). That's a little light for me, as is 10 overall. I might put him over Payton though, Payton had his 9x All-NBA stretch from 94-02 and then was not as valuable post prime as most players because he didn't realize he wasn't an alpha anymore. Still had productive early Seattle years and that Mia run though. If Frazier goes ahead of him he has to be a clearly better player. I'm not positive on that.

Baller 24 · Post #202 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:39 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
Baller 24 wrote:Robinson and Bryant have the lead by a significant margin. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. Next time if a candidate blows out this easily, by 6+ on each we're going to have to just close it out if by the second day that candidate is still leading.

Do we speed up the pace as we go lower?

Nope. I spoke with PenBeast, and we agreed that if there isn't a significant move to the next day, we'll close it out. There hasn't been a significant move at all, and we're within the last 12 hours, yeah it's time to move on.

ElGee · Post #203 » by **ElGee** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:40 pm

Baller 24 wrote:Robinson and Bryant have the lead by a significant margin. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. Next time if a candidate blows out this easily, by 6+ on each we're going to have to just close it out if by the second day that candidate is still leading.

Why close it out? Why not allow people the opportunity to change their minds and those who haven't posted yet to have a voice?

Baller 24 · Post #204 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:42 pm

ElGee wrote:
Baller 24 wrote:Robinson and Bryant have the lead by a significant margin. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. Next time if a candidate blows out this easily, by 6+ on each we're going to have to just close it out if by the second day that candidate is still leading.

Why close it out? Why not allow people the opportunity to change their minds and those who haven't posted yet to have a voice?

Well, there hasn't been a shift within the last 12 hours. If everyone doesn't feel confortable I can keep it up. But it looks as if in terms of votes/nominations it's been completely dead. Up to everyone.

mysticbb · Post #205 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:44 pm

Baller 24 wrote:Well, there hasn't been a shift within the last 12 hours. If everyone doesn't feel confortable I can keep it up. But it looks as if in terms of votes/nominations it's been completely dead. Up to everyone.

How many votes has each player right now? And I'm with Elgee, if not everyone has voted yet, we should give them a chance.

lorak · Post #206 » by **lorak** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:46 pm

Kobe 14
Karl 7
KG 4
Dr J 3

Robinson 19
Wade 6
Drexler 1
Isiah 1
Hondo 1

Dr Positivity · Post #207 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:48 pm

I believe it's Kobe at 14 and Karl closest at 5, going by penbeast's count on Pg 9 and the following votes

Dr Positivity · Post #208 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:49 pm

Nevermind, realbig's corrections underneath probably make DS's count correct

colts18 · Post #209 » by **colts18** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:52 pm

I would prefer to close this early, we need more time for the big ClusterF debate of the next thread.

Dr Positivity · Post #210 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:58 pm

Start loading your pistols

therealbig3 · Post #211 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:25 pm

ElGee wrote:Ask yourself, "do I know everything I need to know about this player? Do I have an intricate understanding of his team dynamics, league context and his role? Do I know all I need to know?"

Because when I see more than I person claim Kevin Garnett never had more than 30 points in an elimination game, and his SIGNATURE game as a basketball player is one of the great game 7's ever, it really makes me wonder what is going on here http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90MIN.html

Wow I'm embarrassed, I remember watching that game and being in awe of KG too, it's not like I just didn't know about it. My bad.

Baller 24 · Post #212 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:37 pm

Guess we'll keep it up. Maybe close an hour or two early.

Post #213 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:45 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Kobe is a better offensive player imo.

I'm with ya here...

therealbig3 wrote:We all know about KG's ridiculous defensive impact, but sometimes, in the playoffs, you need your main guy to be a reliable go-to scorer

...but you really lose me here. I've been hearing variations on this forever, and I never get it. It basically amounts to "In the end, nothing really matters except the ability to score". Totally irrational. You need your best player to do lots of things the ratio of them is no different from what you need of your entire team.

Will also note that Garnett actually did have the best offensive RAPM in the league in '03-04. Only guy in our records who has actually been a league leader on both the offensive and defensive sides.

therealbig3 wrote:In 01, against SA, he does play very well, holding off Duncan and Robinson, and he has a 19/15/5 closeout game...but in a 7 point loss, that's where only scoring 19 points is not enough.

Some perspective:

We just had a guy have a 20/15 season having only half the assists Garnett had in that game, and while being a mediocre defender at best instead of one of the elites in the game, and people went NUTS out how amazing the guy was.

Again this comes down to deep down, you're still seeing scoring as the only thing that matters. You need to get past this my friend.

Black Feet · Post #214 » by **Black Feet** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:54 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Kobe is a better offensive player imo.

I'm with ya here...

therealbig3 wrote:We all know about KG's ridiculous defensive impact, but sometimes, in the playoffs, you need your main guy to be a reliable go-to scorer

...but you really lose me here. I've been hearing variations on this forever, and I never get it. It basically amounts to "In the end, nothing really matters except the ability to score". Totally irrational. You need your best player to do lots of things the ratio of them is no different from what you need of your entire team.

Will also note that Garnett actually did have the best offensive RAPM in the league in '03-04. Only guy in our records who has actually been a league leader on both the offensive and defensive sides.

therealbig3 wrote:In 01, against SA, he does play very well, holding off Duncan and Robinson, and he has a 19/15/5 closeout game...but in a 7 point loss, that's where only scoring 19 points is not enough.

Some perspective:

We just had a guy have a 20/15 season having only half the assists Garnett had in that game, and while being a mediocre defender at best instead of one of the elites in the game, and people went NUTS out how amazing the guy was.

Again this comes down to deep down, you're still seeing scoring as the only thing that matters. You need to get past this my friend.

people went nuts on how amazing Kevin Love is? lol

Baller 24 · Post #215 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:04 pm

He's trying to say people went nuts on how amazing of a season he had just based on his numbers when he was consistently pulling down ridiculous 20 point and 20+ rebound games.

colts18 · Post #216 » by **colts18** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:05 pm

ElGee pretty much took a hammer and smashed the case of Kevin Garnett as an elite all-time player. When comparing him to the elites he fails miserably. He is the worst in bad categories, last place in good categories, and certainly doesn't have a case against a guy like Duncan and marginal one at best against Malone.

Baller 24 · Post #217 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:11 pm

colts18 wrote:ElGee pretty much took a hammer and smashed the case of Kevin Garnett as an elite all-time player. When comparing him to the elites he fails miserably. He is the worst in bad categories, last place in good categories, and certainly doesn't have a case against a guy like Duncan and marginal one at best against Malone.

Wait a minute, so this statistic in a defensive format can't be used against Bryant, because it somehow makes him look like a incredibly inferior defender, while it also can't be used in Garnett's justice (makes him look like an incredibly all-time great defender) because it values too much on "rotations", but somehow by going by pretty much the same format of the statistic, Garnett can't be considered an "elite" player. BTW, check '07, his prime season the value is clearly there.

Post #218 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:29 pm

colts18 wrote:ElGee pretty much took a hammer and smashed the case of Kevin Garnett as an elite all-time player. When comparing him to the elites he fails miserably. He is the worst in bad categories, last place in good categories, and certainly doesn't have a case against a guy like Duncan and marginal one at best against Malone.

I'm so glad you value ElGee's opinion so much. I presume, like him, you now prefer Garnett to Kobe? :lol:

colts18 · Post #219 » by **colts18** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:33 pm

Baller 24 wrote:
colts18 wrote:ElGee pretty much took a hammer and smashed the case of Kevin Garnett as an elite all-time player. When comparing him to the elites he fails miserably. He is the worst in bad categories, last place in good categories, and certainly doesn't have a case against a guy like Duncan and marginal one at best against Malone.

Wait a minute, so this statistic in a defensive format can't be used against Bryant, because it somehow makes him look like a incredibly inferior defender, while it also can't be used in Garnett's justice (makes him look like an incredibly all-time great defender) because it values too much on "rotations", but somehow by going by pretty much the same format of the statistic, Garnett can't be considered an "elite" player. BTW, check '07, his prime season the value is clearly there.

btw, you are mixing me up with someone else about RAPM. I do have some issues with RAPM because it's a flawed stat. You can't take away the colinearity issues with the stats and small sample sizes. With that stat you would believe that Garnett was a top 5-10 player the last 4 years yet the Celtics actually went 40-20 (.667) without him. If he was as good as the stat says, he should have led them to more success.

Yet somehow in that amazing 2007 year Garnett won 32 games. Kobe with Odom and garbage wins 45 games. LeBron takes slightly better than garbage to the finals. He also takes a lottery team to 66 wins. Dirk takes a lottery team to the NBA championship. Dirk's teams have a .696 win% (57 win pace) with him in the last 11 years yet KG has passed that just 1 time in Minnesota. Hakeem takes a lottery team to an NBA championship.

Garnett takes his lottery teams to first round exits or misses the playoffs.

Rapcity_11 · Post #220 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:39 pm

colts18 - The resident expert on quality of supporting casts...