James Harden is a superstar

[The Infamous1]

Manu closed games on the Spurs, Harden is the 3rd option in crunchtime on the Thunder

[richboy]

If Harden is not nearly as efficient or productive against first units as he is second units that is a big deal.

That's mostly because he becomes a spot up shooter next to Westbrook. Although more and more, Brooks is realizing that Harden should handle the ball more with Westbrook off ball.

If your judging someone by a superstar standard. He has a 15 PER at his natural position. That a concern. Harden is not a combo guard. He is a SG that has the ability to handle like a PG. However, his most productive unit for him is when he is in the game at SF. Not sure what you mean how 82 games judge him. In his top 20 5 man units he is clearly the SF in 11 of them.

What makes Harden the SF and Cook the SG?

A SG who has the ability to handle like a PG is a combo guard.

Edit: Where do you get quarter by quarter breakdowns?

Well then Michael Jordan was a combo guard. I could say Kobe Bryant is a Combo guard. Many top SGs have the ability to handle like a PG.

When Cook or Ivey is in the game they are guarded by SGs. They defend the SG. When Harden is playing with Cook or Ivey he guarding the SF and being guarded by the SF. Last night Ivey come in with Fisher and Harden was guarding Ron Artest and being guarded by Ron Artest.

I don't think people realize Harden plays alot of minutes at SF. I been watching all year and the gap between his production at SF and SG just gets bigger and bigger. I don't know if the role is what creating that. I don't know if its because he does better against slower defenders. Maybe those are the lineups that he is most productive. Whatever the reason it is there. I just ask the question on why.

[Rapcity_11]

Well then Michael Jordan was a combo guard. I could say Kobe Bryant is a Combo guard. Many top SGs have the ability to handle like a PG.

Yeah, they would be combo guards as well. A better term is lead guards, actually. Harden is also much more of a pass first guy than MJ or Kobe.

When Cook or Ivey is in the game they are guarded by SGs. They defend the SG. When Harden is playing with Cook or Ivey he guarding the SF and being guarded by the SF. Last night Ivey come in with Fisher and Harden was guarding Ron Artest and being guarded by Ron Artest.

I don't think people realize Harden plays alot of minutes at SF. I been watching all year and the gap between his production at SF and SG just gets bigger and bigger. I don't know if the role is what creating that. I don't know if its because he does better against slower defenders. Maybe those are the lineups that he is most productive. Whatever the reason it is there. I just ask the question on why.

Semantics. Harden is an effective wing player. That's all that matters.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'm just jumping back in here because my thoughts have turned to Harden recently.

I think the skepticism toward Harden makes plenty of sense. I doubt I'll feel confident in looking at Harden as a superstar until he plays a more traditional role.

However, what I find staggering is what things look like from the other side of things. Durant & Westbrook right now look like mere average players by +/- analyses right now. We can debate what that means. I'm not going to suggest it means that really Harden's the superstar of the team. What I am going to point out though is that this is NOT normal. Every star deals with the factor that theoretically their backups are facing weaker opponents lineups. This is simply not something that typical has much impact on advanced +/- studies. After all, you're not really being compared with what you're teammates do against other opponent counterparts as you are compared with how others have done against the opponents you've faced.

When we talk about two superstars getting along together, we're not really talking about them failing utterly so much as reaching a ceiling. Nash-fetishists such as myself talk about him the way we do because he doesn't seem to have any clear ceiling. We've seen years where the team's ORtg with him on the court is in excess of 120. It's utterly ridiculous.

Okay, so this year, the Thunder have emerged as the top offense in the league, and they've done this with the two established superstars playing together virtually all the time. They've played 1766 minutes together according to nba.com, which is actually slightly more than what basketballvalue lists for Westbrook's total minutes played as of a couple days ago. Durant's only slightly higher at about 1880 minutes played.

We know in the past that 2-superstar teams have dominated based on overwhelming opponents together in this way, so a logical inference would be that Durant & Westbrook have now lifted the ceiling of what they can do together, and are just tearing it up on offense. Is that what's happening? Nope. The team is playing about 75% of the time with Durant & Westbrook out there together, and about 25% of the time with neither out there, and the offense is about the same regardless, around 109-110. Which is about the same as the Suns do with Steve Nash on the floor, while they fall completely off a cliff without Nash.

However we divide up the credit among Thunder players, the reason they are the #1 offense in the league has everything to do with this very strange phenomenon that they are doing just fine when their two superstars are both on the bench.

And of course, what do the numbers say about Harden right now:

#1 On Court Team Offense in the league
#1 On/off Team Offense in the league
#3 Current Offensive RAPM by Engelmann
#1 Current Offensive RAPM without prior by Engelmann

All while Harden is putting up ridiculous shooting efficiency numbers. Ridiculous to the point most would say they are unsustainable, except month to month they keep creeping upward, along with his volume.

It does seem to me that as long as the Thunder can continue finding a way to let Harden be this efficient, whether that's mostly due to Harden, or mostly due to everything else around Harden, the team is going to be incredibly strong.

[sixerswillrule]

I don't think people realize Harden plays alot of minutes at SF. I been watching all year and the gap between his production at SF and SG just gets bigger and bigger. I don't know if the role is what creating that.

Exactly, it's the role. Not the meaningless position label alongside the player's name. If he's playing alongside a scrub(relatively speaking) as opposed to Durant, he's going to have a a larger role with more production. The fact that he's the "small forward" means nothing. Put a 6'9" spot up shooter next to Harden instead of a 6'5" spot up shooter, making Harden the "shooting guard" with the same exact role, and the result would be the same...

[LoyalKing]

props to richboy

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1172598

a thread ranking the best lineups among all teams in the NBA and the best one from OKC is exactly when Harden plays as a SF

[Rapcity_11]

It's still a meaningless position label in this case.

[C-izMe]

So I'm just jumping back in here because my thoughts have turned to Harden recently.

I think the skepticism toward Harden makes plenty of sense. I doubt I'll feel confident in looking at Harden as a superstar until he plays a more traditional role.

However, what I find staggering is what things look like from the other side of things. Durant & Westbrook right now look like mere average players by +/- analyses right now. We can debate what that means. I'm not going to suggest it means that really Harden's the superstar of the team. What I am going to point out though is that this is NOT normal. Every star deals with the factor that theoretically their backups are facing weaker opponents lineups. This is simply not something that typical has much impact on advanced +/- studies. After all, you're not really being compared with what you're teammates do against other opponent counterparts as you are compared with how others have done against the opponents you've faced.

When we talk about two superstars getting along together, we're not really talking about them failing utterly so much as reaching a ceiling. Nash-fetishists such as myself talk about him the way we do because he doesn't seem to have any clear ceiling. We've seen years where the team's ORtg with him on the court is in excess of 120. It's utterly ridiculous.

Okay, so this year, the Thunder have emerged as the top offense in the league, and they've done this with the two established superstars playing together virtually all the time. They've played 1766 minutes together according to nba.com, which is actually slightly more than what basketballvalue lists for Westbrook's total minutes played as of a couple days ago. Durant's only slightly higher at about 1880 minutes played.

We know in the past that 2-superstar teams have dominated based on overwhelming opponents together in this way, so a logical inference would be that Durant & Westbrook have now lifted the ceiling of what they can do together, and are just tearing it up on offense. Is that what's happening? Nope. The team is playing about 75% of the time with Durant & Westbrook out there together, and about 25% of the time with neither out there, and the offense is about the same regardless, around 109-110. Which is about the same as the Suns do with Steve Nash on the floor, while they fall completely off a cliff without Nash.

However we divide up the credit among Thunder players, the reason they are the #1 offense in the league has everything to do with this very strange phenomenon that they are doing just fine when their two superstars are both on the bench.

And of course, what do the numbers say about Harden right now:

#1 On Court Team Offense in the league
#1 On/off Team Offense in the league
#3 Current Offensive RAPM by Engelmann
#1 Current Offensive RAPM without prior by Engelmann

All while Harden is putting up ridiculous shooting efficiency numbers. Ridiculous to the point most would say they are unsustainable, except month to month they keep creeping upward, along with his volume.

It does seem to me that as long as the Thunder can continue finding a way to let Harden be this efficient, whether that's mostly due to Harden, or mostly due to everything else around Harden, the team is going to be incredibly strong.

What throws me off is that he plays better when he is out with Westbrook. I can see him as a good first option but nothing like Nash. Nash can turn a horrid team into a 13-18 ranked team and Harden doesn't do that yet despite playing many of his minutes against benches.

[BmanInBigD]

comments in this thread have been laughable all along. I've been saying for MONTHS Harden is a superstar because of how efficient he is and how much impact he makes on team performance, back in the day people were questioning whether he can maintain that level and were very sceptical that he would. months later, Harden's at 67% TS and ~21 pts36, which is a level NEVER achieved in the history of NBA. but right, some idiots seem to think that the reason for it is that he takes easy shots.

What's laughable is someone saying a player is a superstar based on less than half a season. Now, as I'm sure you're aware, his numbers have dropped even more, to around TS 65% and under 19 PTS/36. And, based on laws of averages, would probably go down even more if it were a regular season. Still really good numbers, even if they slide down a little more, but they make him a really nice, "efficient" player, NOT a superstar.

And some of us "idiots" still think he takes a lot of easy shots, WAY more than a real superstar would get. Very efficient players are great to have, but you ain't gonna win squat if a guy like Harden is your best player.

[fallacy]

"dropped" to 65 ts%

[The Infamous1]

So KD has 2 superstars on his team?

That's interesting

[BmanInBigD]

:lol: "dropped" to 65 ts%

Laugh all you want, but the fact that his numbers are trending downward, with what would normally be 25-30 games left, is the joke for anybody that read the first few pages of this ridiculous thread.

[HornetJail]

He's a future superstar. He's not yet, but he will be.

[theokie]

Hes a fringe All-Star. Not a superstar. I feel like you have to make an all-nba team for you to at least be labeled a superstar.

Might make the all-star team next year, then you can call him an all-star. If James Harden is a superstar then that word doesn't mean all that much anymore, basically saying that there are 30 superstars in the league.

[fallacy]

:lol: "dropped" to 65 ts%

Laugh all you want, but the fact that his numbers are trending downward, with what would normally be 25-30 games left, is the joke for anybody that read the first few pages of this ridiculous thread.

He just had a game where he went 1-11 and 0-8 from three. That game alone is what caused the drop in his TS%

I'll take the first 57 games over the last 3 games.

[CKRT]

you gotta feel pretty good if your TS% drops to 65%

[Ayt]

Harden went from bust to one of the most promising SGs in the league because of one thing : The FT line.

He stopped jacking mid-range shots (something he is not good at) and started shooting open 3s and driving to the basket getting fouls. That's how his efficiency skyrocketed. He just realized how to play in a smart way using his best strengths.
It took him a while to figure things out, but now he is doing very well.

I've seen a few people claiming Harder is a max player, but i strongly disagree. He just is not a 1st option type of player.
People tend to think that he would destroy the league as a 1st option, but i feel it's exactly the opposite. People would actually realize that carrying the load of team offensively and facing the best perimeters in the league every freaking night is very different than having to face 2nd units coming off the bench without any pressure. Not saying he is not good because he is, but if team overpays for him wondering that Harden would take them to the next level, i can safely say that this team would be extremely disappointed.

He was never a bust.

[ahonui06]

This thread is ridiculous. He isn't a superstar. There aren't very man superstars in the entire league.

Harden is a fringe all-star player in the same mold as Ginobili.

[Rapcity_11]

This thread is ridiculous. He isn't a superstar. There aren't very man superstars in the entire league.

Harden is a fringe all-star player in the same mold as Ginobili.

How many times are you going to come in here and repeat the same thing?

[BmanInBigD]

:lol: "dropped" to 65 ts%

Laugh all you want, but the fact that his numbers are trending downward, with what would normally be 25-30 games left, is the joke for anybody that read the first few pages of this ridiculous thread.

He just had a game where he went 1-11 and 0-8 from three. That game alone is what caused the drop in his TS%

I'll take the first 57 games over the last 3 games.

Well, you can't do that. This thread was started after what, 6 games, but let's not count the last 3? This is getting ludicrous. Small sample sizes mean squat. Man, with 3 superstars, how does OKC ever lose a freakin game?!