The 2019-20 Luka Dončić Thread

[AdagioPace]

"strenght training" should not be only a synonim of "+strenght, +muscle size,+bone density" alone, especially when talking about lower body/legs! Plyometrics is an entire branch that will be at the service of Doncic. He's not going to botch layups forever or move like a puppet on defense his entire prime.

[freethedevil]

Larry Bird didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness...was clearly a good defender.

[/quote] He was quicker than Luka and could jump higher than Luka. This example does not apply.

Dirk Nowitzki didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness, he developed into a positive impact defender.

No, he didn't. He, at best, managed to be a neutral defender a couple of seasons and defenses usually got worse with him on the court. Off course dirk can still jump higher than Luka, so again, your example does not apply.

Steve Nash, same deal. He was average, not terrible, not great.

He was average at his best seasons and nearly always a negative. And off course, he was much quicker than Luka. So again, your example does not apply

Older LeBron...doesn't have a great standstill vertical nor does he have great lateral quickness, still a positive impact defender this year because he's hustling and making great reads. Mostly it's his effort though.

Lebron can jump higher than luka, can rotate quicker than Luka, and is far bigger than Luka. This is an absolutely awful example.

Being a strong defensive rebounder who's intelligent, doesn't make too many mistakes,

No. If you need your teammates to overhelp to prevent blowbys, if you can't rotate quickly, if you can't help well, and you can't protect the rim, being a strong rebounder is almost certainly not enough to be a positive impact defender.

Your examples have non-positive defenders and all your examples are significantly better equipped physically to defend well. That upi picked those when the far more logical comparison is Harden is rather telling...

[Texas Chuck]

arguing Trae Young is better defensively is a losing argument. Luka isn't good. Trae is awful. And no, he doesn't have the tools to be better.

[therealbig3]

Your examples have non-positive defenders and all your examples are significantly better equipped physically to defend well. That upi picked those when the far more logical comparison is Harden is rather telling...

You're so combative it's grating as hell to have a conversation with you.

The point is that there are plenty of players that physically are also not great leapers and don't possess great lateral quickness that managed to do well enough defensively throughout their careers. Not that Luka is their physical equal...but since you went there...

You're picking and choosing what's important. Dirk can jump higher than Luka (debatable, he's just taller), and size matters, but then what about the lateral quickness you're citing? Luka is far quicker than Dirk was. And yes, Dirk was a positive impact defender. RAPM consistently supported this. Primarily because he was intelligent, had quick hands, and was a great defensive rebounder. His style of play also led to great spacing and because he was out at the 3pt line on offense, he was in position to get back on defense and prevent fast break opportunities. He has a lot of similarities to Luka in that regard.

Nash is quicker than Luka, but then Luka can jump a lot higher than Nash.

I didn't pick Harden because he's the worst example you can think of. He's physically WAY better than Luka, but he is extremely lazy and low IQ on defense. He has the physical tools to be a good defender, he just never applies them. Luka doesn't strike me as someone that would be lazy on defense at all, he just needs to get smarter on that end of the floor and if he gets more offensive help, can devote more energy to that side of the floor.

[freethedevil]

arguing Trae Young is better defensively is a losing argument.

Don't tell me what a losing argument is when you're resorting to a strawman. I said trae has a better physical build for defense. That's only a losing argument if you don't understand how rotations work.

And no, he doesn't have the tools to be better.

Yes because being much quicker isn't useful for staying in front of your man, rotating out of bad matchups, intercepting passes, ect.


Is you saying no supposed to be convincing?

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Larry Bird didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness...was clearly a good defender.

He was quicker than Luka and could jump higher than Luka. This example does not apply.

Dirk Nowitzki didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness, [b]he developed into a positive impact defender.

No, he didn't. He, at best, managed to be a neutral defender a couple of seasons and defenses usually got worse with him on the court. Off course dirk can still jump higher than Luka, so again, your example does not apply.[/b]

Steve Nash, same deal. He was average, not terrible, not great.

He was average at his best seasons and nearly always a negative. And off course, he was much quicker than Luka. So again, your example does not apply

Older LeBron...doesn't have a great standstill vertical nor does he have great lateral quickness, still a positive impact defender this year because he's hustling and making great reads. Mostly it's his effort though.

Lebron can jump higher than luka, can rotate quicker than Luka, and is far bigger than Luka. This is an absolutely awful example.

Being a strong defensive rebounder who's intelligent, doesn't make too many mistakes,

No. If you need your teammates to overhelp to prevent blowbys, if you can't rotate quickly, if you can't help well, and you can't protect the rim, being a strong rebounder is almost certainly not enough to be a positive impact defender.

Your examples have non-positive defenders and all your examples are significantly better equipped physically to defend well. That upi picked those when the far more logical comparison is Harden is rather telling...[/quote]


You are straight up factually wrong. After his first couple years, Dirk was an good to at times very good defender. Very good, like, top of the NBA in post defense. Average in team D, and below average on the PnR, but he became a good defender, especially individually. He finished Top 20 in Defensive Win Shares 6 times (twice in top 10). Top 20 in defensive rating twice. And of course, he was an elite defensive rebounder. Top 20 in DRB% 7 times. Top 6 twice. Stop lying.

[freethedevil]

Your examples have non-positive defenders and all your examples are significantly better equipped physically to defend well. That upi picked those when the far more logical comparison is Harden is rather telling...

You're so combative it's grating as hell to have a conversation with you.

And yet you're the one with the personal attacks. Whooppey do.

The point is that there are plenty of players that physically are also not great leapers and don't possess great lateral quickness that managed to do well enough defensively throughout their careers.

And yet all of the ones you could mange to list are quicker or go higher than Luka can. I get your point, but it's not all that convincing if you're using nonsensical examples. As you've conceded Luka is not their physical equals, I'm not sure how your point stands. For what it's worth, I'll concede that Dirk was a marginal positive, still.

Luka is far quicker than Dirk was.

Laterally? No, no he is not. He is more flexible and has a higher footspeed than Dirk does. However the key to staying with your man is moving side to side, and Luka does not have any sort of lateral advantage on dirk. And given dirk's wingspan, he would need less lateral speed to cover the ground luka would. I'm saying your example is bad because it is bad. If that's "combative", you can have this:

He has a lot of similarities to Luka in that regard.

As already established, they are not at all physically similar. Your example is bad.

Nash is quicker than Luka, but then Luka can jump a lot higher than Nash.

Can he jump high enough to protect the rim? No? Then it doesn't really matter.

. He's physically WAY better than Luka, but he is extremely lazy and low IQ on defense.

Ah yes, when we look at an example that doesn't bode well for Luka's cieling, lets chalk it up to "laziness". Nah, I believe this is called cognitive dissonance. Harden doesn't rotate because he's not quick enough to. He doesn't protect the rim because he can't jump high enough to. His strength is only relevant if he's in a position that he doesn't have to move and the only position that is in is one where his teammates are carrying his slack. But yes, MVP, and best player on a 65 win team, James Harden is too "lazy". ROY winner Luka isn't. If that's what you want to tell yourself, go ahead.

[O_6]

This has been an incredible start to the season for Luka. I'm going to wait another month before really entertaining the idea that he's a potential Top 10 player ever or even GOAT candidate.

I see him getting compared to Harden a lot, and imo it's clearly the best comp for him at this point in time. But one thing that I love about Luka is that he has a tremendous short-mid-range game where he showcases fantastic touch. It took Harden until his 10th season in the league (2018-19) to develop a good floater and make himself a threat from that short-mid range area, which has helped him hit another level as a scorer. Luka is out here in his 2nd year and looks absolutely mastertul in that area. The left-handed scoop shot over Capela in the lane vs. Houston was ridiculous yet he made it look effortless, he's so damn crafty.

[therealbig3]

Hmm, Dirk just as laterally quick as Luka? Harden isn't laterally quick enough to rotate on defense, but I guess he's laterally quick enough to abuse defenders in the half court?

And let's ignore that Dirk rated best as a defender as he got older and lost a lot of his lateral quickness. Almost like intelligence on defense matters more.

You're saying nonsensical things in a pseudo-intellectual, condescending tone, and then putting up emojis when called out on it. And you have shifting goalposts to suit your narrative. Yeah, that's combative.

[Peregrine01]

Hmm, Dirk just as laterally quick as Luka? Harden isn't laterally quick enough to rotate on defense, but I guess he's laterally quick enough to abuse defenders in the half court?

There's a huge difference between moving your feet side to side to play defense and beating guys off the dribble by lulling them to sleep after dribbling for 10 seconds. Harden's ability to get to the rack is also helped because defenders are afraid of getting whistled for fouls.

I think Harden is lazy on defense but I also think that he isn't physically predisposed to be a great defender either. He isn't a guy who has a high motor and can chase and harass guys tirelessly and he doesn't move his feet well laterally. His body type just isn't well suited for it.

[therealbig3]

Hmm, Dirk just as laterally quick as Luka? Harden isn't laterally quick enough to rotate on defense, but I guess he's laterally quick enough to abuse defenders in the half court?

There's a huge difference between moving your feet side to side to play defense and beating guys off the dribble by lulling them to sleep after dribbling for 10 seconds. Harden's ability to get to the rack is also helped because defenders are afraid of getting whistled for fouls.

I think Harden is lazy on defense but I also think that he isn't physically predisposed to be a great defender either. He isn't a guy who has a high motor and can chase and harass guys tirelessly and he doesn't move his feet well laterally. His body type just isn't well suited for it.

Harden does so much more than lull guys to sleep and then dribble by them on offense. He's literally one of the best ever in terms of change of speed and change of direction with the ball in his hands. You wouldn't be able to do that without great lateral quickness.

"Motor" is really just another term for "effort". There are times when it's very obvious that Harden doesn't care to be involved. Like when he passes the ball. He makes zero effort to do anything without the ball in his hands. When he's not defending the ball, Harden literally doesn't care to do anything. He ball watches and constantly loses his man.

Harden has terrible defensive fundamentals, and has no interest in being better, which is why he's such a bad team defender. But his physical ability is not what holds him back. In fact, the best part of his defense is his man defense and his ability to defend the ball handler, which is where a lack of lateral quickness would be exposed if anything.

Saying guys like Nash and Dirk are more physically suited to play good defense than Doncic, but Harden isn't is crazy to me. Harden is the most physically gifted one out of all of them, by far.

BTW, Ginobili is another guy who mainly got by on hustle and intelligence on defense, and he was quite good at it. And his physical profile is essentially identical to Harden's.

[therealbig3]

Jason Kidd is another one. Yeah, he was quicker than Doncic, but for a PG, his lateral quickness was actually one of his issues (Nash for example was quicker than Kidd), he was routinely burned by quicker PGs.

He was still one of the best defensive guards of all time because of his smarts, hands, instincts, defensive rebounding, and versatility.

If lateral quickness and leaping ability (but leaping ability only to the point of being a legitimate rim protector) were the sole physical criteria for defensive potential...go ahead and convince me that Nash had superior physical attributes compared to Kidd when it came to playing good defense.

[freethedevil]

You're saying nonsensical things in a pseudo-intellectual, condescending tone, and then putting up emojis when called out on it. And you have shifting goalposts to suit your narrative. Yeah, that's combative.

Ad-hominem again?

Don't cite bad examples and I won't call them bad. if that's combative, well...

[therealbig3]

You're saying nonsensical things in a pseudo-intellectual, condescending tone, and then putting up emojis when called out on it. And you have shifting goalposts to suit your narrative. Yeah, that's combative.

Ad-hominem again?

Don't cite bad examples and I won't call them bad. if that's combative, well...

That's not what's combative, what's combative is your condescension. As are your comments insinuating I'm not being intellectually honest.

Just be better, and nobody will have an issue with you.

[Pg81]

Larry Bird didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness...was clearly a good defender.

He was quicker than Luka and could jump higher than Luka. This example does not apply.

Dirk Nowitzki didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness, he developed into a positive impact defender.

No, he didn't. He, at best, managed to be a neutral defender a couple of seasons and defenses usually got worse with him on the court. Off course dirk can still jump higher than Luka, so again, your example does not apply.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

[Johnny Firpo]

I wish you guys would learn how to quote each other properly, the back and forth is practically unreadable this way.

[Pg81]

It was jumbled already when I quoted it. No way am I going to fiddle around, I just patched it up enough so it is clear which post was mine and which was not.

[Johnny Firpo]

You're saying nonsensical things in a pseudo-intellectual, condescending tone, and then putting up emojis when called out on it. And you have shifting goalposts to suit your narrative. Yeah, that's combative.

Ad-hominem again?

Don't cite bad examples and I won't call them bad. if that's combative, well...

Having watched all of our games, Doncic is a statistically plus defender this year, and matchup hunting him is not good basketball anymore. I'm reasonably sure that when the defensive advanced stats come out, they will reflect that, or at the very least they will paint him to be average or slightly below average.

[Mos_Heat]

This has been an incredible start to the season for Luka. I'm going to wait another month before really entertaining the idea that he's a potential Top 10 player ever or even GOAT candidate.

No offense, but I think we need more than another month of regular season basketball to make this kind of assumptions

[The-Power]

Having watched all of our games, Doncic is a statistically plus defender this year, and matchup hunting him is not good basketball anymore. I'm reasonably sure that when the defensive advanced stats come out, they will reflect that, or at the very least they will paint him to be average or slightly below average.

Nah, definitely not. Doncic has been a negative this year, and that's obvious by his on/off DRTG splits as well. Most of it is a lack of trying, though. He just doesn't have the conditioning to carry the team offensively without coasting on defense yet.