RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #1 (LeBron James)

[Joao Saraiva]

38.5 PPG at 59.1ts% is subpar efficiency?

I gotta say you definitely didn't watch the series. Go ahead, it's on youtube.

Don't be a dick.

I'll do this informally here to say to both: knock it off.
JS, don't accuse posters of not watching if they reached a different conclusion.
Dutchball, don't engage in name-calling.
Please just leave it here if you can't continue the discussion in a more constructive manner.

All right. I apoligize on that part.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #199:


Lebron James - 16 (Ainosterhaspie, ardee, bidofo, Dr Positivity, freethedevil, Jaivl, Joao Saraiva, Jordan Syndrome, LA Bird, lebron3-14-3, limbo, Matzer, PistolPeteJR, trex_8063, TrueLAfan, Whopper_Sr)
Michael Jordan - 11 (2klegend, 876Stephen, 90sAllDecade, DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Eddy_JukeZ, Gregoire, Hornet Mania, RSCD3_, SeniorWalker, SHAQ32)
Bill Russell - 1 (penbeast0)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 1 (Odinn21)
Wilt Chamberlain - 1 (ZeppelinPage)


Thread will likely go another ~19 hours.

[Dutchball97]

Don't be a dick.

I'll do this informally here to say to both: knock it off.
JS, don't accuse posters of not watching if they reached a different conclusion.
Dutchball, don't engage in name-calling.
Please just leave it here if you can't continue the discussion in a more constructive manner.

All right. I apoligize on that part.

I apologize for being rude as well. Let's continue on the right foot.

[Doctor MJ]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

This really paints a picture.

[SideshowBob]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Is rTS = TS minus league average or TS minus "TS allowed by that team"?

For postseason, I have always tried to use the latter (obviously this becomes a lot of manual work though). The reason being because the league average is meant as a proxy for strength of defenses faced, as the discrepancy between league average TS and weighted average of "specific opponents allowed TS" in an 82 game sample size is minimal. Whereas in the postseason, we're only talking about 4 teams max, so might as well do the real calculation instead of using the proxy, as the discrepancies would be larger.

Probably would not drastically change this picture, but just a thought.

[Jim Naismith]

A big part of LeBron's longevity is due to him skipping college.

Kareem would have done well in the NBA straight out of high school.

3 NBA seasons (LeBron) vs 3 seasons in college (for Michael). I don't get it? MJ had the break too first retirement.

I'm comparing LeBron to Kareem, not Jordan.

[70sFan]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Is rTS = TS minus league average or TS minus "TS allowed by that team"?

For postseason, I have always tried to use the latter (obviously this becomes a lot of manual work though). Probably would not drastically change this picture, but just a thought.

It's definitely relative to league average.

[SideshowBob]

Is rTS = TS minus league average or TS minus "TS allowed by that team"?

For postseason, I have always tried to use the latter (obviously this becomes a lot of manual work though). Probably would not drastically change this picture, but just a thought.

It's definitely relative to league average.

Yeah I went and tested one of them right after.

[trex_8063]

How confident are you in this?

Through the 60s he was typically both either the, or near the (a) worst ts% "starting" (i.e. big minutes) center and (b) lowest usage "starting" center in a given year (Thurmond starts taking TS% at the back end of the decade).

And the offenses weren't good.

I'm open to being wrong but I've always leaned cynical on Russell's offense (specifically the scoring/passing sides).

As far as passing goes, I think it's important to remember a good amount of his assists were hand-offs and pass outs. I also hand-tracked his TOV% off available game footage and it came out to 23.3%, which was definitely not good for the amount he was getting the ball. Probably also helps to explain why the Celtic offenses got worse.

To Owly:

I'm not super-confident, but given how he improved his offensive production in postseason I think he was a positive on that end overall (but definitely not huge). Mind you that I'm talking about 1960-63 Russell, not later versions.

To ZeppelinPage:

I think that your TOV% is unreasonably high, I think that he was a bit turnover prone but this would give him among the worst players ever in that aspect.

...

You've made a huge work on Russell games available recently, could you calculate his adjusted TOV% based on this sample?

I've logged at least parts of NINE different games for Russell [ranging from a single quarter to full-game footage], that total to about 4.65 games. fwiw, ALL of these were playoff games, occurring in '64-'69.

I have his mTOV% for that sample.
For ZP: mTOV% is my own "modified TOV%", which unlike the TOV% on bbref [which considers ONLY turnovers and shots taken; formula is: Tov / (Tov + TSA)], mTOV% also considers playmaking volume [and other considerations wherein a turnover might occur].

The current formula is:

Tov / [Tov + TSA + (Ast * 2.33) + (Reb * 0.04)]

Russell's mTOV% over this little sample is 13.96%, which is poor even for a big-man.

To put it in perspective, here are the mTOV%'s of some more recent "turnover-prone" bigs:
Dwight Howard: 13.73% (career rs)
Dikembe Mutombo: 13.77% (career rs)
Tyson Chandler: 13.89% (career rs)
Shawn Kemp: 13.22% (career rs), 13.84% (career playoff)
Alonzo Mourning: 13.01% (career rs), though career playoffs is 14.35%


As to some limited sample information on some of Russell's actual contemporaries:
Walt Bellamy's is 15.83% (5.4-game sample)
Wilt Chamberlain's is 9.39% (3.7-game sample)
Willis Reed's is 9.43% (6.85-game sample)


THough obviously it's hard to draw any solid conclusions from such a small sample

[SideshowBob]

No harm in us chiming in on discussion even if we are not formally participating/voting, right? All good either way!

[Gibson22]

Unfortunately I don't really have the time to contribute meaningfully, so I'm going to just motivate my votes.

In my opinion the way to judge a player's career is basically estimate the sum of the marginal value added to their team year after year after year. So I value longevity a whole lot. I do give a slight edge to peak as there is something about guys like jordan or lebron at their best that cannot be replicated by other top 10 all time which is so valuable that even 2 or 3 seasons by some of these guys can't add up to what those guy are capable to do, so, I'm not saying that, if we had a way to determine a certain numeric value to a season, I would just straight up make the sum of the seasons and rank whoever has the biggest career value over the other, but still longevity and career value are huge factors.

Just imagine a franchise giving a billion to a player before the start of his career, just like that. Hoping that he has the best and longest career and he contributes to winning as much as possible. Surely the team should hope he plays the max possible number of elite seasons. Now, I understand that 10 seasons of prime mj are superior to basically any number of prime karl malone (unless we are talking about 28 or something), but within guys like lebron, mj or kareem the difference is pretty negligible and it could go either way.

Personally, I've never had a doubt about the guys in my top 3 (MJ, LBJ, KAJ) since 2016, and to be completely honest at this point I think that anybody that doesn't have these 3 guys in his top 3 is just wrong.

So, as far as overall level, I would still put mj over lebron, and kaj clearly below these guys and I'm not sure if any other. You have to consider that LBJ has done it in a way tougher era, but as far as superiority to their peers, I would take MJ's 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, 7 year, or even 10 years peak. The problem for MJ comes at this point: his peak may be considered, and imo is superior to lebron, but the difference is negligible to very litte, and one could easily argue that lebron has the upper hand even in this regard. But MJ basically doesn't have anything besides this 10 year (86-87 to 95-98 with 2 inactive years). He has 2 wizards year and his rookie season (that add up to basically lebron's first 2 seasons), and 2 injured seasons, 85-86 and 94-95 that add up to lebron's 2018-2019. Those 10 prime seasons add up to lebron's 2008-09-2017-2018. So, lebron still has 2006-2008 (all-nba seasons) and 2019-20 (mvp level season, player of the year). So, mj's 10 year prime would have to be so much better than lebron's 10 years to outweigh 4 season like that, which is just crazy to me.

Then we have KAJ:

KAJ is a guy who is top 2 in longevity, top 1 between goat candidates (it would go malone, but he isn't a goat candidate even if without a doubt a top 15 to me, kaj, lebron, duncan) and still has a top 4-5 peak, 5 year peak etc. To me he has 2 top 10 5 year stretches, with his 1976-80 being top 5, and his 71-75 being top 10, with his 80s being still very good and full of accomplishment. Just a crazy good career for a guy that is, other than an high school and an ncaa goat, a 6 time champions, 6 times mvp, 2 times fmvp, x10 1st all-nba, x5 2nd all-nba, x5 1st all-defense, x6 2nd all-defense, 1st all time in points, 3rd in blocks, 4th in rebounds, 102th in steals, 43th in assists. Playoffs: 3th points, 6th rebounds, 2th blocks, 29th assists,34th steals. Finals: 3th points, 5th rebounds, 2th blocks, 13th assists, 12th steals.

And he's right there at the top in most metrics

So I would go:
1) Lebron James
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan


Whenever I have the time I will argue for jerry west, certainly not in the top 3 or 4 but to me in the top 10, while often being considered not even a top 15. Most underrated player ever.

(so, cancel my previous vote)

[Dr Positivity]

When it comes to Celtics in the 60s please consider the possibility that half the reason their offense and defense was so polarized was strategy such as using offense to breathe and intentionally taking shots quickly because their goal was to exhaust the opponent. I don't think they had the real worst offensive team in seasons like 63 and 64.

I will arguing against taking too much from offense/defense ranks probably this whole project. For example this year the Lakers had the 11st ranked offense and the Mavericks were 1st by miles. Does that mean Doncic/Porzingis is a better offensive combo than Lebron/Davis. No. A lot went into the Lakers "only" ranking 11th from hiring Vogel to having largely defense first ok shooting supporting cast. The three spots behind the the Lakers in offensive rank were the Suns, Sixers and Raptors, and you would be foolish to trust those teams on offense as much as a team with Lebron and Davis.

[Owly]

Russell actually was willing to shoot from midrange, I've seen a lot of short midrange attempts from him (around FT line) when I started to collect footage from that era. I doubt he was efficient shooter though.

I think that Bam-level shooter would be his ceilling, but he was also far more athletic so his driving game would be probably more dangerous. He also had acceptable post player while Bam is terrible one.

I think that looking at peak Russell as slightly better offensive version of Bam is fair. We have to remember that Russell peaked as good offensive player in the early 1960s.

How confident are you in this?

Through the 60s he was typically both either the, or near the (a) worst ts% "starting" (i.e. big minutes) center and (b) lowest usage "starting" center in a given year (Thurmond starts taking TS% at the back end of the decade).

And the offenses weren't good.

I'm open to being wrong but I've always leaned cynical on Russell's offense (specifically the scoring/passing sides).

Replying to this one to address all three of the responses I got. First, Owly, I'm with you in not loving the "time machine" element. Any such discussion, by definition, will be fuzzy. In my original post that you quoted I tried to communicate both my lack of fervor for the method, as well as the parameters around which I was willing to be fuzzy.

But in a project like this, where a good segment of the group is flat out willing to give demerits based upon a player's era, then I don't think it's reasonable to do so without acknowledging that this, also, is a type of "time machining" where all of the negatives go toward the player in previous eras.

Focus on Russell with a jumpshot. My point was we know that Russell has inherent physical abilities that would put him conservatively in the 99th percentile of NBA players of any era. We also know that he had the basketball IQ to diagnose methods of producing winning basketball that was way ahead of his time. Another given, that I didn't mention but dovetails with Doc MJ's point that I'm pushing against, is that today's NBA player is compensated INCREDIBLY compared to in Russell's era, and that the sport itself is ubiquitous (to watch, to play, to experience) now in a way that it just wasn't in the 1940s and 50s as Russell was developing.

So. Am I to assume that if Russell came along in this era, with the same gifts that he naturally had, that he would play the exact same way as he did in the 50s and 60s? Just not feasible to me. Yes, some elements should translate, but for the most part I think his style would be very influenced by the times. I think he'd have grown up putting MUCH more effort having a working jumpshot as opposed to the sweeping hook that he favored in real-life. I do believe he'd have adapted his ball-handling/passing (which were strong given the way the game was played then) into something that would more reasonably work in today's era. And, given the presence of the tools and game he had then, I think a modernized version would still allow him to utterly dominate defensively, while having offensive skills that make sense to today's big man. And yes, the majority of players today with Russell's body type do develop at least some facility with a jumper.

As I mentioned before, I'm not projecting him to be Dirk. Someone mentioned Bam Adebayo...I think that's a reasonable ball-park on offense. I tried to wrap my mind around an offensive hybrid of Dwight Howard (explosive finishing around rim) and Draymond Green (comfortable handling the ball and setting up teammates, with a non-natural jumper that could at times be utilized as enough of a threat to create mismatches in the pick-and-play game).

Again, I'm not trying to peg an exact because the whole thing is fuzzy. My entire point was that I think he'd put in the work to be an offensive positive in today's era, because that is what winning would require even on top of dominant defense. And there's nothing about the Russell-that-was that suggests to me that he'd have been unable to diagnose what winning required, nor willing to do everything that was necessary to achieve it.

I don't know it just seems a bit he's smart, he worked hard (which per prior response in practice in the pros wasn't necessarily the case, indeed free throws would be a thing he could do without heavily taxing his body, and as before it's reported that he didn't.

Equally, if he had the tools to be a Dwight Howard finisher and the smarts to gain easy advantages (the dunk and similar at rim finishes being a high percentage shot)...

For most of his career he was the worst or near worst ts% center (amongst those playing 30+ minutes) in the league and worst or near worst for usage
1961: 4 qualifying centers: 4th in fga/36, 3rd in ts% (ahead of Kerr) http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1962: 5 qualifying centers: 4th in fga/36 (ahead of Kerr), 4th in ts% (ahead of Kerr) http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1963: 6 qualifying centers: 6th in fga/36, 6th in ts% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1964: 6 qualifying centers: 6th in fga/36, 6th in ts% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1965: 9 qualifying centers: 9th in fga/36 , 6th in ts% (ahead of Jim Barnes -center status dubious-, Nate Thurmond, Reggie Harding) http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1966: 7 qualifying centers: 7th in fga/36, 7th in ts% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1967: 8 qualifying centers: 8th in fga/36, 5th in ts% (ahead of Imhoff, Thurmond, LeRoy Ellis) http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1968: 8 qualifying centers: 8th in fga/36, 8th in ts% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct
1969: 11 qualifying centers: 11th in fga/36, 10th in ts% (ahead of Thurmond) http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _by=ts_pct

why did he have the opportunity to be selective not afforded to other Celtics and still shoot badly versus his peers. There's a case that his energy is better devoted to D and that worked (which for me is what matters) but ...

It feels rather as though anyone who feels that their favorite or most respected player could be cited as someone who was smart and would work at it and would gain whatever trait one might desire regardless of whether any aptitude was shown (or was actively shown not to be there).

I'm inclined to leave it here because I don't think it matters, but I don't think he could be an effective shooter or finisher (or if he was a finisher - and perhaps he was this in the 50s - then he was an even more awful shooter) ... I don't see the evidence to support such a position.

[Texas Chuck]

Okay it's a vote for Nader obviously, but I'm swung by the Russell arguments that he just is the GOAT and even Lebron with all his sustained greatness isn't overcoming that. He just fundamentally was further ahead of his peers by such a huge margin and did it for enough of a sustained period of time that he's got to be the GOAT. He created an entirely new way of impacting the game and then did so to an unmatched degree. And the best defenders in the world still use principles he innovated. And while we've had some arguments about what his offense could be today, focusing just on his offense in his own era he tends to not get enough credit for that. He again instinctively understood modern ideas such as playing fast and attacking before defenses got set, the value of big man passing, and deferring to perimeter scorers. This is a huge minute MVP regularly being 4th or 5th in FGA. Add to that his leadership and the difficulty of his environment compared to his more modern competition here and he's got to get my vote.

Vote:

1. Russell
2. Lebron
3. Mike -- but admittedly this is partially a placeholder as I think both Kareem and Duncan have serious cases as well.

[Joao Saraiva]

It's much more even than I thought. If people asked me before I would say MJ would win as the clear #1 like he always does.

[limbo]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1985: vs. Bucks = 29.3 ppg on .565 %TS [+2.2 rTS] (-4.3 rDRTg, 2nd ranked defense)
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

This really paints a picture.

It's really just a canvas with a bunch of dots, but if you apply context you can start connecting some of these dots and then start seeing something that more resembles the bigger picture.

I guess my takeaway would be:

- Jordan was more polished as a scorer at the very beginning of his career compared to LeBron
- LeBron's streak of defensive teams he faced in the PS from 2007 to like 2014 was really bonkers. I'm genuinely curious if there's any other all-time great that had to face so many defensive juggernauts each year, and LeBron had to ride into a lot of these matchups severely handicapped (either through having worse supporting casts, worse coaching or key injured teammates; sometimes a combination of multiple of those things). Even the 2010 Celtics and the 2013 Spurs were very likely better defensively than what the RS stats suggested, because both were veteran teams that didn't take RS as seriously and knew how to ramp up and game-plan once the Playoffs rolled over. It really makes you appreciate 2007-2014 LeBron more despite all his flaws.
- I don't think 2015 was LeBron's strongest year of his prime, but i think a bit of a dip in efficiency could be explained by him battling knee and back injuries in the 2nd half of that season, plus he played against both the Hawks and the Warriors without Kyrie and Love. So basically it was a busted up LeBron dragging Delly and Mozgod kicking and screaming.
- Kind of surprising how Jordan's efficiency went south during the 2nd threepeat when this was also the period of time in MJ's career where his playmaking responsibility on-ball was the smallest arguably in his career. Sure, he was still causing a lot of pressure via movement and popping/cutting, but in terms of setting his teammates up he had relatively minimal responsibilities in that department in comparison to what we usually see from a championship-team lead offensive star.

[Joao Saraiva]

MJ:

1985: vs. Bucks = 29.3 ppg on .565 %TS [+2.2 rTS] (-4.3 rDRTg, 2nd ranked defense)
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

This really paints a picture.

It's really just a canvas with a bunch of dots, but if you apply context you can start connecting some of these dots and then start seeing something that more resembles the bigger picture.

I guess my takeaway would be:

- Jordan was more polished as a scorer at the very beginning of his career compared to LeBron
- LeBron's streak of defensive teams he faced in the PS from 2007 to like 2014 was really bonkers. I'm genuinely curious if there's any other all-time great that had to face so many defensive juggernauts each year, and LeBron had to ride into a lot of these matchups severely handicapped (either through having worse supporting casts, worse coaching or key injured teammates; sometimes a combination of multiple of those things). Even the 2010 Celtics and the 2013 Spurs were very likely better defensively than what the RS stats suggested, because both were veteran teams that didn't take RS as seriously and knew how to ramp up and game-plan once the Playoffs rolled over. It really makes you appreciate 2007-2014 LeBron more despite all his flaws.
- I don't think 2015 was LeBron's strongest year of his prime, but i think a bit of a dip in efficiency could be explained by him battling knee and back injuries in the 2nd half of that season, plus he played against both the Hawks and the Warriors without Kyrie and Love. So basically it was a busted up LeBron dragging Delly and Mozgod kicking and screaming.
- Kind of surprising how Jordan's efficiency went south during the 2nd threepeat when this was also the period of time in MJ's career where his playmaking responsibility on-ball was the smallest arguably in his career. Sure, he was still causing a lot of pressure via movement and popping/cutting, but in terms of setting his teammates up he had relatively minimal responsibilities in that department in comparison to what we usually see from a championship-team lead offensive star.

Well as you can see by the post MJ faced a ton of great defenses too. He lost some ability to get to the rim once he came back and he was still putting monster volume. Also I feel for a big part we didn't see much resting on defense by MJ. We definitely saw that by LeBron at times. So it's natural to see some less efficient scoring games from MJ I guess.

Also MJ turned the ball over a lot less than LeBron, even tough as you said his playmaking responsabilities were not on pair with Bron's.

[Blackmill]

But in a project like this, where a good segment of the group is flat out willing to give demerits based upon a player's era, then I don't think it's reasonable to do so without acknowledging that this, also, is a type of "time machining" where all of the negatives go toward the player in previous eras.

I think this is a misrepresentation.

As I've mentioned, I think there are two general approaches. Either context is averaged out or it is not. This is the difference between asking "who played their hand the best" and "who could play any hand the best". I think there's a real argument that second approach is more fair since players have limited control over what the rules were when they played, who they played against, and so on. But I also understand that the first approach may be more meaningful in a human way. And there's fewer "what-ifs", so the analysis is more factual, so there are ways in which the first approach is more fair. Regardless, I've said I think both are equally reasonable.

I don't think it's accurate to say the second approach punishes players from the past. I've said that Kareem would benefit from the spacing today. I see Russell as a better offensive player now than he was in the 60s, not only because of the more open lanes which his athleticism will make the most of, but also because I expect his role to change to maximize his skill set. Because the second approach changes the analysis, there will be players who it "hurts", but this is not a scheme to demerit players from the past. It's a different approach.

I do expect Russell would be a better shooter than he was. His free throw form was unusual with one foot a bit in front of the other and sometimes he shot his free-throws one-handed. It's clear to me that a skills / shooting coach would help. But it's also hard for me to be optimistic when Russell didn't have the proprioception to find a natural shooting form on his own. Other players did. And there were players on the Celtics who had a much more natural shooting form so it's not like Russell lacked exposure to different shot mechanics. Again, I like the Bam comparison, and think 70sFan is pretty spot on with his assessment that Bam is roughly Russell's ceiling as a shooter.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Defenses in general was getting much stronger during the second 3peat through the 2004 season. If you look at the league ORtgs since 1980,, that period was a sustained clear low point.

[DQuinn1575]

It's much more even than I thought. If people asked me before I would say MJ would win as the clear #1 like he always does.

When I saw the poll that had LeBron 2020 versus MJ 1996 was basically even then I knew that LeBron would have a real good chance to win this. If people think a non MVP regular season and not leading your team in playoff winshares in even with the best player in the league on maybe the best team ever then their thinking doesnt align with mine.