RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #4 (Bill Russell)

[Texas Chuck]

I think what makes KG different even from Lebron or Kobe is his range on the list. Even Lebron's biggest haters and he's got a bunch of them all pretty have to concede he's at worst the 3rd best player of all-time and even that is pushing it. Kobe slots in pretty solidly in that 9-12 range for most.

KG starts getting support at #1 whereas there also serious posters(not just his haters) who would have him more in the 12-15 range(this includes me in full disclosure). And I think its that enormous gap in evaluation of him that leads to some of the more spirited debates. No other player comes close to that distance this high on the list.

[penbeast0]

I think what makes KG different even from Lebron or Kobe is his range on the list. Even Lebron's biggest haters and he's got a bunch of them all pretty have to concede he's at worst the 3rd best player of all-time and even that is pushing it. Kobe slots in pretty solidly in that 9-12 range for most.

KG starts getting support at #1 whereas there also serious posters(not just his haters) who would have him more in the 12-15 range(this includes me in full disclosure). And I think its that enormous gap in evaluation of him that leads to some of the more spirited debates. No other player comes close to that distance this high on the list.

Maybe Wilt, we will see. Probably the next great disparity is George Mikan though.

[Owly]

I think what makes KG different even from Lebron or Kobe is his range on the list. Even Lebron's biggest haters and he's got a bunch of them all pretty have to concede he's at worst the 3rd best player of all-time and even that is pushing it. Kobe slots in pretty solidly in that 9-12 range for most.

KG starts getting support at #1 whereas there also serious posters(not just his haters) who would have him more in the 12-15 range(this includes me in full disclosure). And I think its that enormous gap in evaluation of him that leads to some of the more spirited debates. No other player comes close to that distance this high on the list.

I've seen threads and posters you haven't. I've seen LeBron a LeBron "top 15" post this year in a thread on this very PC board entitled "Is Lebron James a Top 5 All-Time ?" not necessarily advocating reading it but ... yeah there is considerable cynicism in parts. Plus a recent thread diminishing the importance his accomplishments in/at "Bubble League" (their caps) said he was outside the top 3 at very least. Maybe you are thinking among his biggest cynics among "serious posters".

Spoiler:

I don't really do a list but I suspect I and at least one other poster provide major downside on the range of someone I've seen given as top 20. It might just be me being involved and gaps get smaller between ranks but I suspect this player is the most polarizing.

I don't think Kobe should be considered a lock for 9-12 unless he gets what I tend to think of as the Maravich halo (people thought a lot more of Maravich after his death than during his playing career). Certainly not saying he won't end up there but I can see a fair amount of reasonable downward range. WS/48 for instance - an imperfect tool for sure but a possible indicator - has him 19th and whilst it doesn't credit him much for volume WS loves longevity (and few if any box metrics curve so that exceptional peaks' additional championship equity is recognized and Kobe doesn't really have one of those, imo). VORP he's 12th ... in the VORP era (with plenty close either side of him). 97-14 RAPM points above average he's clearly 6th of his generation (gap either side and I'd posit that this window is quite a convenient one for Bryant, cuts out his worst tail end years that look below average, but doesn't miss out on quality years at either end as it does for O'Neal or James [above him] or moreso the likes of Paul [below], in terms of the per possession version he's 31st - some small sample players above but nevertheless not pantheon tier standout. I can see fair arguments for a lower downside than 12.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I think what makes KG different even from Lebron or Kobe is his range on the list. Even Lebron's biggest haters and he's got a bunch of them all pretty have to concede he's at worst the 3rd best player of all-time and even that is pushing it. Kobe slots in pretty solidly in that 9-12 range for most.

KG starts getting support at #1 whereas there also serious posters(not just his haters) who would have him more in the 12-15 range(this includes me in full disclosure). And I think its that enormous gap in evaluation of him that leads to some of the more spirited debates. No other player comes close to that distance this high on the list.

What I have noticed from the bigger KG supporters on here is detailed, thorough and convincing arguments with arguments build on a strong foundation.

I am curious to see when and how Kobe is brought up. I have him on the outside of my top 14 and it will be difficult for him to garner traction for me inside the top 10.