2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

[Doctor MJ]

[, but have a slant a bit more toward the "this person now needs your attention" perspective. That doesn't DQ a superstar by any means, but once a guy gets to the point where he's getting serious accolades, I think the MIP award becomes something of an afterthought for what it can do for that player.

Yeah this isn't a factor for me. I never view any awards in terms of how it impacts a player's legacy down the road. I just try and evaluate the season for what it was.

But I do understand your thinking and agree that I think the intention of the award is to do what you are talking about--shine a spotlight on players who aren't already viewed as stars.

I do understand your perspective and think it entirely reasonable.

One quibble: I wouldn't say I'm talking about a player's legacy here so much as I'd talk about it as immediate marketing for league assets.

[jalengreen]

i feel like giannis being eliminated almost locks up POTY for jokic. i do not think there's anything tatum/steph can realistically do to deserve it over him

[Texas Chuck]

i feel like giannis being eliminated almost locks up POTY for jokic. i do not think there's anything tatum/steph can realistically do to deserve it over him

I'm presuming this means you think Booker/Paul/Luka all even further back than Tatum/Steph?

Interesting that Booker did really well in the MVP voting, but is getting zero traction here. And Tatum seems clearly ahead of Luka here despite Luka also finishing ahead in MVP voting and their seasons having so many interesting parallels.

I think that either means Luka's poor start lasted longer in people's minds than it actually did on the court, or obviously for our posters who put a lot of stock into the +/- stats, he has no shot at all since his are relatively pedestrian.

Doc is the only poster to say that while he's not particularly high on Luka right now, that if Luka wins 4 series he might well have to give it to him. Especially since he would have to have beaten 3 clearly better teams after winning largely a push in the first round.

And Booker and Paul are likely victims of canceling either other out some plus I think the idea that Bridges and Ayton are terrific number 3 and number 4 guys.

I would agree Jokic likely will be my choice too, but I always put a lot more stock into the larger sample size. But for those who put a lot of stock in the playoffs I think we still have a couple more players who should be in the discussion at least, though obviously after tonight, cut that number down.

[Outside]

i feel like giannis being eliminated almost locks up POTY for jokic. i do not think there's anything tatum/steph can realistically do to deserve it over him

I'm presuming this means you think Booker/Paul/Luka all even further back than Tatum/Steph?

Interesting that Booker did really well in the MVP voting, but is getting zero traction here. And Tatum seems clearly ahead of Luka here despite Luka also finishing ahead in MVP voting and their seasons having so many interesting parallels.

I think that either means Luka's poor start lasted longer in people's minds than it actually did on the court, or obviously for our posters who put a lot of stock into the +/- stats, he has no shot at all since his are relatively pedestrian.

Doc is the only poster to say that while he's not particularly high on Luka right now, that if Luka wins 4 series he might well have to give it to him. Especially since he would have to have beaten 3 clearly better teams after winning largely a push in the first round.

And Booker and Paul are likely victims of canceling either other out some plus I think the idea that Bridges and Ayton are terrific number 3 and number 4 guys.

I would agree Jokic likely will be my choice too, but I always put a lot more stock into the larger sample size. But for those who put a lot of stock in the playoffs I think we still have a couple more players who should be in the discussion at least, though obviously after tonight, cut that number down.

For Booker, he doesn't have the impact stats I expect in a POY candidate. My guess is that he got MVP votes because some people think the best player on the best RS team should get votes.

For me, Doncic is lower for several reasons. One is the slow start. Another is that the impact stats don't match the box score stats. Yet another is that his defense is awful.

Having said all that, both Booker and Luka are really impressive and have a chance to move up. I just don't think they can get the top spot over Jokic.

[Texas Chuck]

For me, Doncic is lower for several reasons. One is the slow start. Another is that the impact stats don't match the box score stats. Yet another is that his defense is awful.

Feels like the defense and impact stats go hand and hand though right? But what's interesting is how by some defensive metrics Luka looks really good despite our eyes clearly telling us something different.

But I don't know how much to punish him for defense when he's not prevented a pretty good team defense that lacks any elite defenders and only 3 truly good ones. Not that he's not a bad defender, I think he is. But his size means you can still have a competent defense with him in ways you can't with some other poor defending offensive stars and so I think we have to be careful just how much we use that against him. Much like how I feel people try and use Gobert's lack of diverse offense skills against him despite his team having been the most efficient in the league with a clearly defined role for him.

IDK, I guess I still really struggle to understand how Tatum could be seen to be so far ahead of Luka. Again except for with those posters who begin and end with +/- and the rest of their analysis is simply an attempt to explain the plus/minus results. I recognize for those with that approach, Luka doesn't belong as a candidate.

[iggymcfrack]

I feel like the game really clarified my POY ballot a lot. At this point, I feel like Jokic is locked at #1 and Giannis locked at #2. Giannis needed to win at least one series against a real team for the team success to possibly move him up to #1 when Jokic was clearly the best player in the regular season and played impeccably in the Golden State loss. Likewise, Giannis was still clearly the best player int the Bucks/Celtics series after being much better than Tatum in the regular season so Tatum can't really pass him at this point. 3rd place is between Tatum and Embiid unless Curry goes absolutely nuclear leading his team to a championship. And I'd have Curry clearly 5th right now. So it's basically:

1. Jokic (locked)
2. Giannis (locked)
3. Embiid/Tatum (virtually tied at the moment)
5. Curry (potential to go as high as 3, but likely will finish in this spot)

I guess if Luka somehow led the Mavs to the Finals or Paul/Booker had all-time conference finals and finals they could steal a spot, but I feel pretty good about that order right now.

[jalengreen]

i feel like giannis being eliminated almost locks up POTY for jokic. i do not think there's anything tatum/steph can realistically do to deserve it over him

I'm presuming this means you think Booker/Paul/Luka all even further back than Tatum/Steph?

Interesting that Booker did really well in the MVP voting, but is getting zero traction here. And Tatum seems clearly ahead of Luka here despite Luka also finishing ahead in MVP voting and their seasons having so many interesting parallels.

I think that either means Luka's poor start lasted longer in people's minds than it actually did on the court, or obviously for our posters who put a lot of stock into the +/- stats, he has no shot at all since his are relatively pedestrian.

Doc is the only poster to say that while he's not particularly high on Luka right now, that if Luka wins 4 series he might well have to give it to him. Especially since he would have to have beaten 3 clearly better teams after winning largely a push in the first round.

And Booker and Paul are likely victims of canceling either other out some plus I think the idea that Bridges and Ayton are terrific number 3 and number 4 guys.

I would agree Jokic likely will be my choice too, but I always put a lot more stock into the larger sample size. But for those who put a lot of stock in the playoffs I think we still have a couple more players who should be in the discussion at least, though obviously after tonight, cut that number down.

i should've mentioned luka, i forgot about him. he's at around the same level IMO but probably has a better chance of gain because the mavs ask him to do more than the warriors/celtics do with steph/tatum. but i still dont think it'd be enough to bump up ahead of jokic barring something historic

i think booker's a step back though. still a great season and could perhaps crack a ballot but definitely cant see him going ahead of jokic (or cp3)

[falcolombardi]

I feel like the game really clarified my POY ballot a lot. At this point, I feel like Jokic is locked at #1 and Giannis locked at #2. Giannis needed to win at least one series against a real team for the team success to possibly move him up to #1 when Jokic was clearly the best player in the regular season and played impeccably in the Golden State loss. Likewise, Giannis was still clearly the best player int the Bucks/Celtics series after being much better than Tatum in the regular season so Tatum can't really pass him at this point. 3rd place is between Tatum and Embiid unless Curry goes absolutely nuclear leading his team to a championship. And I'd have Curry clearly 5th right now. So it's basically:

1. Jokic (locked)
2. Giannis (locked)
3. Embiid/Tatum (virtually tied at the moment)
5. Curry (potential to go as high as 3, but likely will finish in this spot)

I guess if Luka somehow led the Mavs to the Finals or Paul/Booker had all-time conference finals and finals they could steal a spot, but I feel pretty good about that order right now.

my only nitpick is jokic playing impecabbly vs warriors, his defense looked extremely fragile at times specially compared to giannis

otherwise i agree jokic regular seasom edge keeps him above giannis

[iggymcfrack]

For me, Doncic is lower for several reasons. One is the slow start. Another is that the impact stats don't match the box score stats. Yet another is that his defense is awful.

Feels like the defense and impact stats go hand and hand though right? But what's interesting is how by some defensive metrics Luka looks really good despite our eyes clearly telling us something different.

But I don't know how much to punish him for defense when he's not prevented a pretty good team defense that lacks any elite defenders and only 3 truly good ones. Not that he's not a bad defender, I think he is. But his size means you can still have a competent defense with him in ways you can't with some other poor defending offensive stars and so I think we have to be careful just how much we use that against him. Much like how I feel people try and use Gobert's lack of diverse offense skills against him despite his team having been the most efficient in the league with a clearly defined role for him.

IDK, I guess I still really struggle to understand how Tatum could be seen to be so far ahead of Luka. Again except for with those posters who begin and end with +/- and the rest of their analysis is simply an attempt to explain the plus/minus results. I recognize for those with that approach, Luka doesn't belong as a candidate.

Their offensive numbers are actually surprisingly similar. 28/9/9 on .571 TS% vs. 27/8/4 on .578 TS% in the regular season. 31/10/7 on .567 TS% vs. 29/6/6 on .578 TS% in the playoffs. Their offensive impacts are somewhat similar even if Luka's a better passer and playmaker. Meanwhile, Tatum is light years ahead as a defender. He's legitimately one of the 5 or 10 best wing defenders in the league. Luka, while improved, is still average at best defensively and an outright liability on bad days. He was hunted very efficiently in the Suns' series.

If you ask me, that's the reason why Tatum's so far ahead in all the advanced stats. It's not just +/- (Tatum +14 in the RS and +18 in the playoffs, Luka +0 in the RS and +13 in the playoffs). It's every single advanced stat. Tatum ranked 5th, 8th, 5th, 3rd, and 1st in the stats most trusted by NBA GMs while Doncic ranked 19th, 17th, 20th, 5th, and 120th. Then beyond that, Tatum was there for his team every single game in the playoffs while Luka missed 3 games and was lucky that his team picked up 2 road wins without him in order to move on in the first round. I really don't think they're close right now. Luka is incredibly talented and has an insane ceiling, but much like Dirk, until he learns to get it done on the defensive end, he's not going to be an MVP-caliber player, and he's not going to be a champion. I don't doubt that he could be that complete player some time in the future, but he ain't there yet.

[iggymcfrack]

I feel like the game really clarified my POY ballot a lot. At this point, I feel like Jokic is locked at #1 and Giannis locked at #2. Giannis needed to win at least one series against a real team for the team success to possibly move him up to #1 when Jokic was clearly the best player in the regular season and played impeccably in the Golden State loss. Likewise, Giannis was still clearly the best player int the Bucks/Celtics series after being much better than Tatum in the regular season so Tatum can't really pass him at this point. 3rd place is between Tatum and Embiid unless Curry goes absolutely nuclear leading his team to a championship. And I'd have Curry clearly 5th right now. So it's basically:

1. Jokic (locked)
2. Giannis (locked)
3. Embiid/Tatum (virtually tied at the moment)
5. Curry (potential to go as high as 3, but likely will finish in this spot)

I guess if Luka somehow led the Mavs to the Finals or Paul/Booker had all-time conference finals and finals they could steal a spot, but I feel pretty good about that order right now.

my only nitpick is jokic playing impecabbly vs warriors, his defense looked extremely fragile at times specially compared to giannis

otherwise i agree jokic regular seasom edge keeps him above giannis

He had the 5th highest postseason PER of all-time. If he had one half where he got really cooked while hurt and had a little trouble guarding Steph Curry on the PnR the rest of the time while carrying an insane offensive load with his top teammates injured, I'm not gonna hold that against him. Find me any center in history that can shoot .643% TS% on 37% USG and still guard Steph Curry on switches. I can't think of anyone.

[eminence]

I feel like that's being insultingly reductive of Tatum's arguments over Doncic.

Tatum is one of the more effective isolation scorers around (as is Doncic), Doncic obviously the better passer/playmaker for others, but Tatum isn't useless there. I have Tatum as the slightly more useful off-ball player (better shooter/cutter). Overall a medium size lead on offense for Doncic (I'd say around 5th vs around 10th in the league).

Defensively Tatum is better at just about everything I can think of. Tatum is a very very good defender. He'd be on my all defense 2nd team (partially due to minutes, probably drop a bit on a per minute basis). Doncic is, around average.

In winning the possession battle, Tatum outclasses Doncic on the glass and in limiting and forcing turnovers. The gap may be similar to the defensive lead. Tatum is quite good here and Doncic is below league average.

Overall as players I have them pretty close in quality for the season, with a slight edge to Tatum. Given the large games/minutes lead I wind up with Tatum well out in front of Doncic.

That gap widened in the 1st round. Perhaps it's closed some in the second, but it's still quite wide at this point to me.

[Texas Chuck]

So I try not to get to homerish in this thread. And I want to be clear I don't think Dorian deserves a 1st team all-D and probably not even a 2nd team nod this year. But the more I look at how Dallas has been a really solid defense this year and you look at their bigs and their two point guards and it seems clear this success is built on Sean Sweeney's scheme but also those two wing defenders Finney-Smith and Bullock.

And DFS has some statistical numbers this year that suggest a real effectiveness. And no player in the entire league spends more time defending the other team's best offensive player.

But while I don't think either guy is a candidate this year, what they are doing on the big stage this playoffs is going to set them up for consideration next year. Having two 3&D guys who can defend multiple positions and do it for 40 minutes plus has been a big part of Dallas heading into a game 7 against the best team in the league this year. Both guys deserve a passing mention and Doe Doe probably a bit more than thant.

This feels not so homerish atm lol

[Texas Chuck]

I feel like that's being insultingly reductive of Tatum's arguments over Doncic.

Yeah but it isn't. Going by the numbers you posted the only clear edge is +/-. Everything is else is really pretty even.

So for those who put a lot of weight in +/- absolutely have Tatum way ahead. That's being totally consistent.

For those like me, who take a wider view, I don't think its insulting to suggest Luka is equally deserving of consideration for a top 5 spot as Tatum.

Again, using your numbers as my basis for this.

[eminence]

I feel like that's being insultingly reductive of Tatum's arguments over Doncic.

Yeah but it isn't. Going by the numbers you posted the only clear edge is +/-. Everything is else is really pretty even.

So for those who put a lot of weight in +/- absolutely have Tatum way ahead. That's being totally consistent.

For those like me, who take a wider view, I don't think its insulting to suggest Luka is equally deserving of consideration for a top 5 spot as Tatum.

Again, using your numbers as my basis for this.

My very brief post on LeBron being unworthy of POY consideration did not go into Luka/Tatum.

That’s an ongoing discussion I’ve built out over the season (summarized in the cut portion of the quoted above post).

[mikejames23]

I don't know what to do anymore. This series is impressive enough for me to bump Luka up a bit.

So then I would have 6 guys.

Tatum
Curry
Giannis
Embiid
Luka
Jokic

I wonder who falls off from here. I am tempted to take out Tatum, but a lot can still change between now and this season's dramatic finish. Curry and the Warriors are probably the strongest team left, but who knows how this will turn out.

[Doctor MJ]

Doc is the only poster to say that while he's not particularly high on Luka right now, that if Luka wins 4 series he might well have to give it to him. Especially since he would have to have beaten 3 clearly better teams after winning largely a push in the first round.

Glad you remember Chuck!

Yup, Luka is certainly a #1 candidate for me, and by definition always was...but I still have him as absolutely not in my Top 5 in the regular season, and now - well - everything is in flux.

I can see 8 guys that I can imagine ending up in my Top 5, my regular season Top 5:

Jokic
Tatum
Curry
Giannis
Embiid

Plus Luka, Bam & Jimmy.

I'm not making any changes to that list right now but I'll say a few things:

1. I think Jokic would still be my 1 right now, but he's vulnerable.

2. I'll seriously listen to argument for Giannis at #1, but I'd have to change my mind about somethings. As with Luka, to me we're talking about an extreme talent who didn't have the top regular season, and so to me that leaves him needing to do something huge in the playoffs. His team losing where there seed said they should lose doesn't feel like that, but it may feel different if Boston destroys their next two opponents.

3. I really did have Tatum & Curry above Giannis & Embiid after the regular season so hopefully it's pretty clear why they are still in the mix.

4. If everything were to end right now, I would not have Luka on my list of guys I'd seriously consider for #1, but it's possible that will change after the conference finals. Whatever happens in the next round though, I'm going to take Luka very seriously for a candidate in my 5.

5. I'm not entirely sure what to do with Bam & Jimmy. I feel like the Heat will probably have to beat the Celtics for one of them to get in my Top 5, but like Luka and everyone else, if by Finals end it feels like, say, Jimmy Butler was the best player in the playoffs, I'll be strongly considering him not just for 5, but for 1.

[Doctor MJ]

Some other thoughts:

- I think Monty falls from #1 on my COY ballot to off my ballot now. Really something how quickly things can shift. Major candidates for me are likely to be Udoka, Kerr, Kidd & Jenkins, with Bud clearly deserving at least a spot in the conversation.

- As weak of a DPOY as Smart is, to me he strengthened his case in the Bucks series. The idea that you'd specifically want your point guard guarding Giannis is freaking insane. It's easy to see how Bam or Dray could surpass Smart with their play the rest of the way, but I don't think I'll be putting anyone already eliminated ahead of Smart.

- Luka now seriously emerging as an OPOY candidate (as well as POY).

- I find myself realizing that Grant Williams makes sense as a 6MOY candidate.

[tsherkin]

- As weak of a DPOY as Smart is, to me he strengthened his case in the Bucks series. The idea that you'd specifically want your point guard guarding Giannis is freaking insane. It's easy to see how Bam or Dray could surpass Smart with their play the rest of the way, but I don't think I'll be putting anyone already eliminated ahead of Smart.
.

Conceptually reminds me of 6'7 wings on Dirk pre-2008, right?

[Colbinii]

Some other thoughts:

- I think Monty falls from #1 on my COY ballot to off my ballot now. Really something how quickly things can shift. Major candidates for me are likely to be Udoka, Kerr, Kidd & Jenkins, with Bud clearly deserving at least a spot in the conversation.

- As weak of a DPOY as Smart is, to me he strengthened his case in the Bucks series. The idea that you'd specifically want your point guard guarding Giannis is freaking insane. It's easy to see how Bam or Dray could surpass Smart with their play the rest of the way, but I don't think I'll be putting anyone already eliminated ahead of Smart.

- Luka now seriously emerging as an OPOY candidate (as well as POY).

- I find myself realizing that Grant Williams makes sense as a 6MOY candidate.

Why is Spo not being considered but Jenkins and Kerr are?

[Texas Chuck]

- As weak of a DPOY as Smart is, to me he strengthened his case in the Bucks series. The idea that you'd specifically want your point guard guarding Giannis is freaking insane. It's easy to see how Bam or Dray could surpass Smart with their play the rest of the way, but I don't think I'll be putting anyone already eliminated ahead of Smart.
.

Conceptually reminds me of 6'7 wings on Dirk pre-2008, right?

Sorry my brain is just breakking thinking about teams defending Dirk and Giannis similarly.

And yes, I know that's not at all what you are saying. Just what first popped into my head lol.