2022-23 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

[Colbinii]

Thoughts on Reaves for Most Improved?

[Doctor MJ]

I think AD has been by far the best defender this postseason so far, and outside of missing games he was probably a top 5 defender in the RS as well

I dont see AD as being bar far better defensively than JJJ. JJJ has been amazing in the Lakers series and doesn't have the benefit of having the ultimate QB in LeBron next to him.

Honestly am wondering if it should be taken for granted that someone of ad/kg/giannis's physical profile is destined to be better than a jjj/draymond

I'm confused by the lumping together of JJJ & Draymond. Can you elaborate?

[AEnigma]

Thoughts on Reaves for Most Improved?

If a person is willing to consider sophomores, sure.

[Doctor MJ]

JJJ might exit in the first round but I'd argue he's elevated from his regular season play. If he was dpoy-worthy playing 29mpg, keeping that up for 37mpg(in addition to whatever per-possession "impact" comes from not fouling) shouldn't really hurt his case.

Brook and Mobley have had their weaknesses exploited(with Lopez really struggling without Giannis's coverage as many might have predicted), but I think JJJ's made his argument stronger if anything(though maybe mpg should have played a bigger factor in how we evaluated his regular season?)

Think these playoffs have reinforced the idea that "stay-at-home" rim protection isn't all that viable for anchoring resilient playoff defense. Mobly and Brook probably fit what people "think" Gobert is/was and the results have been brutal

Reasonable point about JJJ's minutes. I have to acknowledge that the regular season minutes really did bother me and I think it was perhaps being a bit generous him even making my top 3.

I'll say generally that I won't necessarily change any of my votes based on the playoffs, but it's really something that these guys' teams aren't just losing but are specifically getting upset.

Re: Brook exploited without Giannis. I don't really think there's any reason to blame Brook and let Giannis off the hook. This is a team with 3 of the most well-respected defenders around and they've been the least effective defense in the entire playoffs so far. This is first and foremost about Jimmy being Jimmy, but if things don't turn around it will severely damage the candidacy for all of them.

I'm also not sure if we should chalk this up to standard Gobert-esque issues. This isn't a giant lost as the midgets shoot from beyond the arc, it's Jimmy basically making the entire half-court his own.

Re: Mobley. There's actually still data indicating Mobley's being effective here, but the Cavs in general feel like they are being exposed as a team that wasn't built to be a team. I was very critical of the team-building before last season but with their success that skepticism turned to to a tip of the cap. Right now though, this seems like a team that might need to fundamentally re-think it's design, and while trading Allen would be the obvious thing, I'm very concerned about the Mitchell/Garland dynamic.

All this to say that my instincts might be more likely to turn against Mobley's defense that he actually deserves.

Wait where does Giannis fit into this he’s only played one game lol

You mean the one where the opposing star scored at will doing most of his damage inside the arc?

I'm not looking to blame Giannis and let the other guys off the hook, but it's not like the Bucks have a great DRtg with Giannis and have utterly fallen apart without him.

[Doctor MJ]

Thoughts on Reaves for Most Improved?

I'm impressed by him and will certainly consider him, but statistically it doesn't seem like it was that jaw-dropping of a leap. All things being equal, I'm more inclined to favor a guy who broke through to stardom.

[OhayoKD]

Totally up in the air. My 3 top regular season guys - Brook, Mobley, JJJ - all look poised to be upset in the first round.

JJJ might exit in the first round but I'd argue he's elevated from his regular season play. If he was dpoy-worthy playing 29mpg, keeping that up for 37mpg(in addition to whatever per-possession "impact" comes from not fouling) shouldn't really hurt his case.

Brook and Mobley have had their weaknesses exploited(with Lopez really struggling without Giannis's coverage as many might have predicted), but I think JJJ's made his argument stronger if anything(though maybe mpg should have played a bigger factor in how we evaluated his regular season?)

Think these playoffs have reinforced the idea that "stay-at-home" rim protection isn't all that viable for anchoring resilient playoff defense. Mobly and Brook probably fit what people "think" Gobert is/was and the results have been brutal

Reasonable point about JJJ's minutes. I have to acknowledge that the regular season minutes really did bother me and I think it was perhaps being a bit generous him even making my top 3.

I'll say generally that I won't necessarily change any of my votes based on the playoffs, but it's really something that these guys' teams aren't just losing but are specifically getting upset.

Re: Brook exploited without Giannis. I don't really think there's any reason to blame Brook and let Giannis off the hook. This is a team with 3 of the most well-respected defenders around and they've been the least effective defense in the entire playoffs so far. This is first and foremost about Jimmy being Jimmy, but if things don't turn around it will severely damage the candidacy for all of them.

I'm also not sure if we should chalk this up to standard Gobert-esque issues. This isn't a giant lost as the midgets shoot from beyond the arc, it's Jimmy basically making the entire half-court his own.

Re: Mobley. There's actually still data indicating Mobley's being effective here, but the Cavs in general feel like they are being exposed as a team that wasn't built to be a team. I was very critical of the team-building before last season but with their success that skepticism turned to to a tip of the cap. Right now though, this seems like a team that might need to fundamentally re-think it's design, and while trading Allen would be the obvious thing, I'm very concerned about the Mitchell/Garland dynamic.

All this to say that my instincts might be more likely to turn against Mobley's defense that he actually deserves.

1. That kind of depends on how you view the Lakers. The Grizzlies are being upset because they were a higher seed in the regular season, but the Lakers have played like one of the best teams in the league since they've become this version of themselves. Additionally I think right before the series, the consensus was that it was close to a swing because of the injuries to Clarke and Adams.

I had a hot take where I thought LAL vs MEM's victor would win the west because I thought the Lakers were the most dangerous possible Western opponent based both on their talent and how they matched up vs Mem. JJJ being able to avoid trouble was a pleasant surprise but Rui, Dlo, and Reeves have exceeded my expectations as playoff performers. I wouldn't be shocked if the Lakers end up being a sleeping buzzsaw in hindsight

Ultimately what the Lakers do past a Memphis victory should be a factor here. If they look like a title-level team or a legitimate contender, I wouldn't be so harsh on Memphis for being upset. Especially considering an injury to JJJ's best teammate.

2. Am I letting Giannis off the hook here? Hasn't the bucks defense collapsed in the non-Giannis minutes? Wasn't really talking about Butler specfically though I will note that I find it really weird Bud didn't double him at the end of the 4th quarter. I guess it's fair to argue someone like Draymond would have forced that decision himself.

3. Honestly I haven't been watching that closely, so it's possible I'm getting swept by the narrative here

[OhayoKD]

Reasonable point about JJJ's minutes. I have to acknowledge that the regular season minutes really did bother me and I think it was perhaps being a bit generous him even making my top 3.

I'll say generally that I won't necessarily change any of my votes based on the playoffs, but it's really something that these guys' teams aren't just losing but are specifically getting upset.

Re: Brook exploited without Giannis. I don't really think there's any reason to blame Brook and let Giannis off the hook. This is a team with 3 of the most well-respected defenders around and they've been the least effective defense in the entire playoffs so far. This is first and foremost about Jimmy being Jimmy, but if things don't turn around it will severely damage the candidacy for all of them.

I'm also not sure if we should chalk this up to standard Gobert-esque issues. This isn't a giant lost as the midgets shoot from beyond the arc, it's Jimmy basically making the entire half-court his own.

Re: Mobley. There's actually still data indicating Mobley's being effective here, but the Cavs in general feel like they are being exposed as a team that wasn't built to be a team. I was very critical of the team-building before last season but with their success that skepticism turned to to a tip of the cap. Right now though, this seems like a team that might need to fundamentally re-think it's design, and while trading Allen would be the obvious thing, I'm very concerned about the Mitchell/Garland dynamic.

All this to say that my instincts might be more likely to turn against Mobley's defense that he actually deserves.

Wait where does Giannis fit into this he’s only played one game lol

You mean the one where the opposing star scored at will doing most of his damage inside the arc?

I'm not looking to blame Giannis and let the other guys off the hook, but it's not like the Bucks have a great DRtg with Giannis and have utterly fallen apart without him.

They may not have had a great Drtg with Giannis(unsure how to figure out what the drating was before giannis went out in game 1), but they have "fallen apart" without him. Drating in the two non-giannis games was significantly higher than it was in game 4 and in game 1 the heat went nova when Giannis went out.

[Doctor MJ]

JJJ might exit in the first round but I'd argue he's elevated from his regular season play. If he was dpoy-worthy playing 29mpg, keeping that up for 37mpg(in addition to whatever per-possession "impact" comes from not fouling) shouldn't really hurt his case.

Brook and Mobley have had their weaknesses exploited(with Lopez really struggling without Giannis's coverage as many might have predicted), but I think JJJ's made his argument stronger if anything(though maybe mpg should have played a bigger factor in how we evaluated his regular season?)

Think these playoffs have reinforced the idea that "stay-at-home" rim protection isn't all that viable for anchoring resilient playoff defense. Mobly and Brook probably fit what people "think" Gobert is/was and the results have been brutal

Reasonable point about JJJ's minutes. I have to acknowledge that the regular season minutes really did bother me and I think it was perhaps being a bit generous him even making my top 3.

I'll say generally that I won't necessarily change any of my votes based on the playoffs, but it's really something that these guys' teams aren't just losing but are specifically getting upset.

Re: Brook exploited without Giannis. I don't really think there's any reason to blame Brook and let Giannis off the hook. This is a team with 3 of the most well-respected defenders around and they've been the least effective defense in the entire playoffs so far. This is first and foremost about Jimmy being Jimmy, but if things don't turn around it will severely damage the candidacy for all of them.

I'm also not sure if we should chalk this up to standard Gobert-esque issues. This isn't a giant lost as the midgets shoot from beyond the arc, it's Jimmy basically making the entire half-court his own.

Re: Mobley. There's actually still data indicating Mobley's being effective here, but the Cavs in general feel like they are being exposed as a team that wasn't built to be a team. I was very critical of the team-building before last season but with their success that skepticism turned to to a tip of the cap. Right now though, this seems like a team that might need to fundamentally re-think it's design, and while trading Allen would be the obvious thing, I'm very concerned about the Mitchell/Garland dynamic.

All this to say that my instincts might be more likely to turn against Mobley's defense that he actually deserves.

1. That kind of depends on how you view the Lakers. The Grizzlies are being upset because they were a higher seed in the regular season, but the Lakers have played like one of the best teams in the league since they've become this version of themselves. Additionally I think right before the series, the consensus was that it was close to a swing because of the injuries to Clarke and Adams.

I had a hot take where I thought LAL vs MEM's victor would win the west because I thought the Lakers were the most dangerous possible Western opponent based both on their talent and how they matched up vs Mem. JJJ being able to avoid trouble was a pleasant surprise but Rui, Dlo, and Reeves have exceeded my expectations as playoff performers. I wouldn't be shocked if the Lakers end up being a sleeping buzzsaw in hindsight

Ultimately what the Lakers do past a Memphis victory should be a factor here. If they look like a title-level team or a legitimate contender, I wouldn't be so harsh on Memphis for being upset. Especially considering an injury to JJJ's best teammate.

2. Am I letting Giannis off the hook here? Hasn't the bucks defense collapsed in the non-Giannis minutes? Wasn't really talking about Butler specfically though I will note that I find it really weird Bud didn't double him at the end of the 4th quarter. I guess it's fair to argue someone like Draymond would have forced that decision himself.

3. Honestly I haven't been watching that closely, so it's possible I'm getting swept by the narrative here

1. I can certainly see the argument that the Lakers weren't true "underdogs", but with a guy who wasn't in serious DPOY discussion near-doubling JJJ's blocks, to me it functions analogously. If the Lakers eliminate the Grizz and I feel like AD is clearly the top defensive player in the series, that's not going to help JJJ's DPOY candidacy.

Re: injury to JJJ"s best teammate. I dunno, Bane looked pretty good last game.

2.
Giannis on-court DRtg 120.2
Giannis off-court DRtg 123.6

This is not anything like a "collapse when he goes to the bench", and even if the drop off were a lot bigger, there's still the matter that on-court, 120.2 is the Heat doing WAY better than they did in the regular season.

As I said, full credit to Jimmy, but if this is how the Bucks' season ends, it's going to be awfully hard for me to get excited about including any Bucks on my DPOY ballot - or any ballot for that matter.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think AD has been by far the best defender this postseason so far, and outside of missing games he was probably a top 5 defender in the RS as well

I dont see AD as being bar far better defensively than JJJ. JJJ has been amazing in the Lakers series and doesn't have the benefit of having the ultimate QB in LeBron next to him.

Not looking to knock JJJ, but the fact that AD has nearly double the blocks as JJJ - when that is JJJ's calling card - is pretty crazy.

I do think AD has an opportunity to zoom to the top of my DPOY list if he keeps this up over a deep run.

AD is averaging more blocks than the grizzlies team is right now

I honestly don’t understand how someone can watch this whole series and think it’s not clear who the best defender on the court is lol, at least games 1-3, AD was literally a bigger force in the paint than the entire grizzlies team who have absolutely shut that down

It’s not a knock on JJJ, AD has been special on defense this series and it’s really not been a close comparison between two

[MyUniBroDavis]

Reasonable point about JJJ's minutes. I have to acknowledge that the regular season minutes really did bother me and I think it was perhaps being a bit generous him even making my top 3.

I'll say generally that I won't necessarily change any of my votes based on the playoffs, but it's really something that these guys' teams aren't just losing but are specifically getting upset.

Re: Brook exploited without Giannis. I don't really think there's any reason to blame Brook and let Giannis off the hook. This is a team with 3 of the most well-respected defenders around and they've been the least effective defense in the entire playoffs so far. This is first and foremost about Jimmy being Jimmy, but if things don't turn around it will severely damage the candidacy for all of them.

I'm also not sure if we should chalk this up to standard Gobert-esque issues. This isn't a giant lost as the midgets shoot from beyond the arc, it's Jimmy basically making the entire half-court his own.

Re: Mobley. There's actually still data indicating Mobley's being effective here, but the Cavs in general feel like they are being exposed as a team that wasn't built to be a team. I was very critical of the team-building before last season but with their success that skepticism turned to to a tip of the cap. Right now though, this seems like a team that might need to fundamentally re-think it's design, and while trading Allen would be the obvious thing, I'm very concerned about the Mitchell/Garland dynamic.

All this to say that my instincts might be more likely to turn against Mobley's defense that he actually deserves.

1. That kind of depends on how you view the Lakers. The Grizzlies are being upset because they were a higher seed in the regular season, but the Lakers have played like one of the best teams in the league since they've become this version of themselves. Additionally I think right before the series, the consensus was that it was close to a swing because of the injuries to Clarke and Adams.

I had a hot take where I thought LAL vs MEM's victor would win the west because I thought the Lakers were the most dangerous possible Western opponent based both on their talent and how they matched up vs Mem. JJJ being able to avoid trouble was a pleasant surprise but Rui, Dlo, and Reeves have exceeded my expectations as playoff performers. I wouldn't be shocked if the Lakers end up being a sleeping buzzsaw in hindsight

Ultimately what the Lakers do past a Memphis victory should be a factor here. If they look like a title-level team or a legitimate contender, I wouldn't be so harsh on Memphis for being upset. Especially considering an injury to JJJ's best teammate.

2. Am I letting Giannis off the hook here? Hasn't the bucks defense collapsed in the non-Giannis minutes? Wasn't really talking about Butler specfically though I will note that I find it really weird Bud didn't double him at the end of the 4th quarter. I guess it's fair to argue someone like Draymond would have forced that decision himself.

3. Honestly I haven't been watching that closely, so it's possible I'm getting swept by the narrative here

1. I can certainly see the argument that the Lakers weren't true "underdogs", but with a guy who wasn't in serious DPOY discussion near-doubling JJJ's blocks, to me it functions analogously. If the Lakers eliminate the Grizz and I feel like AD is clearly the top defensive player in the series, that's not going to help JJJ's DPOY candidacy.

Re: injury to JJJ"s best teammate. I dunno, Bane looked pretty good last game.

2.
Giannis on-court DRtg 120.2
Giannis off-court DRtg 123.6

This is not anything like a "collapse when he goes to the bench", and even if the drop off were a lot bigger, there's still the matter that on-court, 120.2 is the Heat doing WAY better than they did in the regular season.

As I said, full credit to Jimmy, but if this is how the Bucks' season ends, it's going to be awfully hard for me to get excited about including any Bucks on my DPOY ballot - or any ballot for that matter.

I mean, giannis’s on court def rtg consists of the first quarter of g1, and the past game where they were doing great in that regard until Jimmy went absolutely nuclear, I don’t think that would be a representive sample right?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Thoughts on Reaves for Most Improved?

I'm impressed by him and will certainly consider him, but statistically it doesn't seem like it was that jaw-dropping of a leap. All things being equal, I'm more inclined to favor a guy who broke through to stardom.

I agree Reaves shouldn’t get most improved, but I will say it’s the post trade numbers by him that have been insane. Playoffs he hasn’t gotten the calls that he got in the RS (which is fair)

[Doctor MJ]

Wait where does Giannis fit into this he’s only played one game lol

You mean the one where the opposing star scored at will doing most of his damage inside the arc?

I'm not looking to blame Giannis and let the other guys off the hook, but it's not like the Bucks have a great DRtg with Giannis and have utterly fallen apart without him.

They may not have had a great Drtg with Giannis(unsure how to figure out what the drating was before giannis went out in game 1), but they have "fallen apart" without him. Drating in the two non-giannis games was significantly higher than it was in game 4 and in game 1 the heat went nova when Giannis went out.

To me "falling apart" needs to indicate a massive difference with and without the player, which I don't see a statistical basis for here.

You talk about the Heat going nova in Game 1 after Giannis went out - just keep in mind that Giannis was -9 in 11 minutes, the team was -4 in the other 37, then followed that up with a victory without him.

Remember also that the last time the Heat upset the Bucks, they won their one game in the series with Giannis playing bench predominantly. Not looking to make some extreme hot take here against Giannis, but let's just say that if you were looking to extrapolate about Giannis and the Bucks based solely on their playoff series against Jimmy, I don't think anyone would be thinking "Giannis was the best player but got let down by his teammates.".

If Jimmy and the Heat can finish this off, it's probably always going to be a thing that people point out about Giannis that in matchups against Jimmy, the Bucks had the misfortune of not having the best player on the court. And while that isn't exactly a fair thing to run thing, it's pretty damn amazing that this is happening again.

[Doctor MJ]

1. That kind of depends on how you view the Lakers. The Grizzlies are being upset because they were a higher seed in the regular season, but the Lakers have played like one of the best teams in the league since they've become this version of themselves. Additionally I think right before the series, the consensus was that it was close to a swing because of the injuries to Clarke and Adams.

I had a hot take where I thought LAL vs MEM's victor would win the west because I thought the Lakers were the most dangerous possible Western opponent based both on their talent and how they matched up vs Mem. JJJ being able to avoid trouble was a pleasant surprise but Rui, Dlo, and Reeves have exceeded my expectations as playoff performers. I wouldn't be shocked if the Lakers end up being a sleeping buzzsaw in hindsight

Ultimately what the Lakers do past a Memphis victory should be a factor here. If they look like a title-level team or a legitimate contender, I wouldn't be so harsh on Memphis for being upset. Especially considering an injury to JJJ's best teammate.

2. Am I letting Giannis off the hook here? Hasn't the bucks defense collapsed in the non-Giannis minutes? Wasn't really talking about Butler specfically though I will note that I find it really weird Bud didn't double him at the end of the 4th quarter. I guess it's fair to argue someone like Draymond would have forced that decision himself.

3. Honestly I haven't been watching that closely, so it's possible I'm getting swept by the narrative here

1. I can certainly see the argument that the Lakers weren't true "underdogs", but with a guy who wasn't in serious DPOY discussion near-doubling JJJ's blocks, to me it functions analogously. If the Lakers eliminate the Grizz and I feel like AD is clearly the top defensive player in the series, that's not going to help JJJ's DPOY candidacy.

Re: injury to JJJ"s best teammate. I dunno, Bane looked pretty good last game.

2.
Giannis on-court DRtg 120.2
Giannis off-court DRtg 123.6

This is not anything like a "collapse when he goes to the bench", and even if the drop off were a lot bigger, there's still the matter that on-court, 120.2 is the Heat doing WAY better than they did in the regular season.

As I said, full credit to Jimmy, but if this is how the Bucks' season ends, it's going to be awfully hard for me to get excited about including any Bucks on my DPOY ballot - or any ballot for that matter.

I mean, giannis’s on court def rtg consists of the first quarter of g1, and the past game where they were doing great in that regard until Jimmy went absolutely nuclear, I don’t think that would be a representive sample right?

Fundamentally the thing is that there's absolutely zero reason right now to say

"The Bucks had the advantage when Giannis could play and lost because of his missed time."

All the sample size is limited and we should be careful about drawing massive conclusions about any of these players, but if we're looking to blame Giannis' teammates for it, we should at least look back and remember that the Heat have kicked the Bucks' ass with Giannis too.

[Doctor MJ]

Thoughts on Reaves for Most Improved?

I'm impressed by him and will certainly consider him, but statistically it doesn't seem like it was that jaw-dropping of a leap. All things being equal, I'm more inclined to favor a guy who broke through to stardom.

I agree Reaves shouldn’t get most improved, but I will say it’s the post trade numbers by him that have been insane. Playoffs he hasn’t gotten the calls that he got in the RS (which is fair)

Good point, and I really hope that the Lakers next year look to treat Reaves as a major part of all of their offensive scheming going forward.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think game 1 is very close between JJJ and Davis (yes, both were that amazing). I'd give Davis the edge for the series though.

Oh J would for sure disagree Game 1 was close personally, that was the game where they basically couldn’t score in the paint at all, and where he was blocking shots and retaining possession almost every time. I think there were at least 8-9 shots he stuffed or completely forced the miss and got the ball back from

I don’t think it’s a knock on JJJ, I do think he’s the DPOY. But I mean, AD on defense that game was unplayable lol. Are you sure ur not mixing up games? Don’t remember JJJ being particularly insane on defense in game 1

If you mean game 4 I agree with you

One thing I’d say is I feel memphis do kind of have a hell house with their defense, Tillman has been ridiculous and has been able to check both AD and Bron so far (other than when bron just decided to start driving out of control vs bully ball, and Tbf ADs touch has been horrible so far), and konchar became an absurd shot blocker that one game lol

Whereas with the Lakers, in terms of rim protection it really is just AD lol. Brons been more off transition or when a guy goes at him, Vando and Rui have done well but the share of the impact hasn’t really been close

In the context of the current era, 5 blocks and 2 steals a game is crazy and I don’t think it oversells how good he’s been defensively.

Strong disagree on JJJ not being insane in game 1. Davis was also absurd and had more eye catching plays, but both were incredible,

I wanted to make sure I wasn’t tripping so I went a bit more into that game

So by tracking data

JJJ was the closest defender in 21 shots, and Lakers went 15/21

AD was also the closest defender for 21 shots, and the grizzlies went 5/21

Within 10 feet, AD guarded 12 shots and the grizzlies went 4/12, JJJ guarded 13 and the Lakers went 11/13

Within 6 feet, JJJ guarded 11 and the Lakers went 10/11
AD guarded 8, the grizzlies made 4/8

10/13 inside the arc when AD sat, 3/9 when JJJ sat

So overall tracking data
JJJ: 15/21
AD: 5/21

>10 feet
4/12
11/13

>6 feet
JJJ 10/11
AD 4/8





Went through every shot attempt in the paint from nba.com

1) block on roddy
2) Pretty good contest on a made Ja layup where he got ahead of steam in drop
3) transition, not involved
4) Block on Tillman
5) good contest on made Tillman layup on 2 for one because Vando died on the screen
6) JJJ scores on Bron single coverage in the post ft line
7) Ja in transition, not involved
8) scores on bron in the post, AD tries to help late and JJJ makes it over him (this one is on bron since help came high so he needs to be able to read the spin to the baseline, you def see ADs help is reactionary once bron gets beat there)
9) AD forces a miss on a Ja floater (that I didn’t realize wasn’t a block)
10) TBjr dies on screen and they get a dunk in the p and r
11) JJJ tries to score on AD and gets blocked
12) Aldama tries to score on AD, has to put an awkward one kind of
13) tyus Jones floater over Rui, not involved
14) AD blocks JJJ layup outback attempt
15) tyus Jones in transition, miscommunication between AD and Reaves. I’d say it’s on Reaves since you see AD point to where Reaves should be and Jones drives there, since brooks was filling the wing
16) kennard gets a putback, AD contesting a three rpm like 30 feet so he’s not at fault for the rebound I think lol
17) tyus Jones gets by dlo and misses a running floater over AD, he’s in drop and Tillman is behind him so he’s trying to play the pass I think
18) bane misses floater over Dennis, AD not involved
19) AD stops a Ja layup on an island, great contest
20) JJJ misses a shot trying to score on AD, good D imo
21) JJJ scores on bron in the post, AD not involved
22) JJJ hits a floater over Vando, AD not involved? (The entire defense was a bit mismatched there but I mean ADs guy was Tillman so
23) brooks goes for a layup, AD gets a good contest, misses
24) Ja misses a turnaround fadeaway on Vando, AD not involved
25) Bron transition block, AD not involved
26) Bane layup in transition, AD not involved
27) aldama misses running floater over Rui, AD not involved
28) JJJ hits a layup in pick and roll, Dennis and AD were defending, it was executed well
29) Ja misses layup over Reaves, AD not involved
30) AD block on bane floater
31) JJJ misses post hook vs Vando with bron helping
32) JJJ hits it over Vando
33) JJJ misses layup over Rui

1) AD misses a tip in
2) AD misses a fadeaway over Tillman
3) Reaves hits a shot in transition
4) Vando dunks it, JJJ was going to help on AD (Tillman guarding) and he gets it to Vando who dunks it
5) AD dunks it
6) Reaves misses floater over JJJ, fantastic contest
7) lebron misses layup, great contest by JJJ
8) JJJ Got postered in transition, was under the rim cuz he was looking at AD
9) Rui hits the tip in (over jjj but I wouldn’t blame him)
10) Dlo hits layup
11) AD gets offensive board and hits post hook over JJJ
12) Dlo misses floater in transition
13) Rui hits dunk in transition
14) bron hits the reverse layup past JJJ
15) lebron misses layup over bane, fights for the rebound with JJJ and it goes to Rui who makes it
16) Tbjr misses reverse
17) bron gets inside position on kennard and hits a layup over JJJ who has to help
18) AD alley ooo dunk in transition, 2 v 1 Reaves and AD vs JJJ can’t do anything there
19) JJJ great block on AD at the rim
20) bron gets offensive board and hits an and one outback on JJJ (can’t really blame him for the board AD and bron were there)
21) Reaves misses floater
22) Reaves blocked on floater by JJJ
23) AD hits floater over Tillman
24) bron layup in transition
25) Schroder hits layup past kennard, JJJ helped and did good D there
26) Rui drives past and dunks on JJJ who I think got caught on the close out
27) Reaves hits that layup where JJJ fell



Now, breaking those down after having seen every shot in the paint for the most part

JJJ was good, and the tracking data is pretty unfair to him because he got caught in a bunch of bad situations. For the most part he didn’t make any mistakes there, and alotnof it was good offense

BUT, it was absolutely not even close to comparable to how AD played that game lol.

Like, AD won’t keep this level of defensive performance up, because it’s not sustainable lol. Bubble AD was a strong DPOY level guy on that end and he’s been a tier or two ahead of that with his absurd rim protection so far

The memphis defense, especially with Tillman playing like this, is really just slowing guys down packing the paint and JJJ cleaning it up. This isn’t a knock JJJ, he’s one of the best at that in the league

The Lakers paint defense has been better throughout this series with AD on the court, and it’s just been AD and like Rui in the post lol.

To be clear, I think JJJ was probably the best defender in game 4 (I watched it innperson tho so I’m wasn’t really trying to analyze, I was more annoyed at AD in general so I probably ignored his D lol), and overall he’s shown why he’s the DPOY

I just don’t think they’ve been close in that regard this series so far

[OhayoKD]

You mean the one where the opposing star scored at will doing most of his damage inside the arc?

I'm not looking to blame Giannis and let the other guys off the hook, but it's not like the Bucks have a great DRtg with Giannis and have utterly fallen apart without him.

They may not have had a great Drtg with Giannis(unsure how to figure out what the drating was before giannis went out in game 1), but they have "fallen apart" without him. Drating in the two non-giannis games was significantly higher than it was in game 4 and in game 1 the heat went nova when Giannis went out.

To me "falling apart" needs to indicate a massive difference with and without the player, which I don't see a statistical basis for here.

You talk about the Heat going nova in Game 1 after Giannis went out - just keep in mind that Giannis was -9 in 11 minutes, the team was -4 in the other 37, then followed that up with a victory without him.

Remember also that the last time the Heat upset the Bucks, they won their one game in the series with Giannis playing bench predominantly. Not looking to make some extreme hot take here against Giannis, but let's just say that if you were looking to extrapolate about Giannis and the Bucks based solely on their playoff series against Jimmy, I don't think anyone would be thinking "Giannis was the best player but got let down by his teammates.".

If Jimmy and the Heat can finish this off, it's probably always going to be a thing that people point out about Giannis that in matchups against Jimmy, the Bucks had the misfortune of not having the best player on the court. And while that isn't exactly a fair thing to run thing, it's pretty damn amazing that this is happening again.

Tbf, if we agree Jimmy is playing the best in the playoffs(and was arguably doing that last playoffs too without facing the Bucks(though I think Giannis was better)) and Jimmy's mean performance since he's been at miami as a postseason performer is "bitw" worthy, Giannis by default won't be the best player on the floor. Giannis can be the second best performer of the postseason and lose out to the best performer(and I do think with or without Jimmy's, Giannis's game 4 performance of excellent(peak kg-level playmaking tbh)). Not saying you're doing this, but "Giannis isn't the best player on the court" shouldn't be an automatic assumption that players who are "the best player on the court" in another series were playing better because the "best player" competition is weaker.

It is true that the Bucks won the "most" giannis-less game vs Miami, but it's also true that Giannis had his best per-minute production(by a landslide) in the game they won. And that injury was there from game 2(I think there's a general durability critique people can make of giannis given he's had injury issues in 3 of the last 4 playoffs).

For DPOY consideration, like the Lakers/memphis, how well the heat/butler do offensively beyond the bucks(assuming they win which the might not), should be factored in. If Miami/Buyler is torching the other dpoy candidates then maybe being torched offensively by miami/butler doesn't mean all that. Even in the 2020 playoffs, the Heat consistently played way above their rs level, and took 2 games off a team that had went 12-4 in a conference with a +6 srs team(signifcantly higher full strength) without Bam(who i see as the biggest contributor to their bucks win(and there is some emperical support for that)) and Dragic.

Final point I'll make is I think people have retroactively overrated Jimmy's performances prior to the 2020 finals. Bam actually was doing better via plus-minus/box hybrids in the first three rounds and the biggest factor in the Bucks series to me was how Bam was able to deal with Giannis. Embid also led the league in plus-minus and PIPM in 2019 and was the focus of the Raptors defense(and Gasol's primary focus). The 2020 2nd round wasn't really butler vs giannis to me. It was more "bucks defensive scheme vs shooting" and then "bam nuetralizes giannis"(the opposite has happened in the subsequent series) and then "Jimmy's goes off in game 3 and makes key plays down the stretch". The idea that Butler carried Miami on his back during 2020 feels revisionist

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm impressed by him and will certainly consider him, but statistically it doesn't seem like it was that jaw-dropping of a leap. All things being equal, I'm more inclined to favor a guy who broke through to stardom.

I agree Reaves shouldn’t get most improved, but I will say it’s the post trade numbers by him that have been insane. Playoffs he hasn’t gotten the calls that he got in the RS (which is fair)

Good point, and I really hope that the Lakers next year look to treat Reaves as a major part of all of their offensive scheming going forward.

Reaves for a lot of the post trades was their main halfcourt option if they couldn’t find anything with AD or if AD was off

Reaves is the type that can extend advantages really well and he’s really coming into his own, hope the Lakers retain him I think it’ll be around 12-13 mill maybe?

[rk2023]

With Most Improved player, one rule of thumb in terms of how I personally see the award is that taking a leap towards the all-star / all-NBA levels means more to me (I may have mentioned this in the thread before). With that considered, SGA is a top my leader-board for the award this season - along with Jaren Jackson Jr. Claxton and Lauri would be my other serious finalists.

Even as a Lakers guy, I can't see the case for Reaves. If his post ASB stretch happened to be sustainable or (shifting to a possibility rather than hindsight) he vastly exceeds my expectations in the Playoffs, I'd consider giving him an Honorable Mention shout. I've also been impressed with Jaren's defense this series, which is influencing my stance on voting - whether recency bias or not.

[rk2023]

What's your thought on DPOY right now?

I think AD has been by far the best defender this postseason so far, and outside of missing games he was probably a top 5 defender in the RS as well

I dont see AD as being bar far better defensively than JJJ. JJJ has been amazing in the Lakers series and doesn't have the benefit of having the ultimate QB in LeBron next to him.

Watch on YouTube

The ultimate QB indeed

[Colbinii]

With Most Improved player, one rule of thumb in terms of how I personally see the award is that taking a leap towards the all-star / all-NBA levels means more to me (I may have mentioned this in the thread before). With that considered, SGA is a top my leader-board for the award this season - along with Jaren Jackson Jr. Claxton and Lauri would be my other serious finalists.

Even as a Lakers guy, I can't see the case for Reaves. If his post ASB stretch happened to be sustainable or (shifting to a possibility rather than hindsight) he vastly exceeds my expectations in the Playoffs, I'd consider giving him an Honorable Mention shout. I've also been impressed with Jaren's defense this series, which is influencing my stance on voting - whether recency bias or not.

I agree [big proponent of Embiid in 2020 or 2021 I believe, which ever season it was he became a Top 5 guy].

I think there is a good chance Reeves goes on to finish the post-season with something like 18/4/4 on good efficiency in a difficult Western conference [Imagine playing the Grizzles, Warriors and KD Suns or #1 Seed Denver].