RealGM Top 100 All-Time List

[heatboY]

Shaq is too low, Jordan is too high, Larry above Magic, and Hondo is WAY too high. Don't take "impact on the game" too seriously. the most important part is how dominant these guys were against their competition.

[TheSheriff]

Hondo is WAY too high.

Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever. As many rings as Magic and Bird combined. 11 all-nba teams. 13 all star teams. 26,000 points. How was he too high?

[Dat Pass]

LOL @ McGrady being 55.

Never won a playoff series.

[heatboY]

"the greatest perimeter defender ever" Pfft.. yeah right. top 10 but not the greatest. he played forever and was the best player on a celtics team of good players. not great. The reason old timers love him is because of all the minutes he played without getting winded. He's probably the most well conditioned player of all time.

[heatboY]

I'll take Moses over Hakeem. Hakeem is too high.

[Baller 24]

I'll take Moses over Hakeem. Hakeem is too high.

Well, it's based on career. Hakeem is a better two-way player, he did lead a team to the finals his 2nd season, one of the best inside/outside combo defenders. And along with '75 Barry and '03 Duncan, Hakeem is one of the only players in NBA history to lead his team to the finals with an inferior supporting cast. Won 2 back to back championships, in '95 the Rockets were the underdog the entire playoffs (6th seed), while on the path he's the only player to win an MVP, DPOY, and Finals MVP the same season, he also dominated and humiliated the likes of Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. Most block shots all time, good longevity, great two-way dominance, and ultimately a great player. I'd take Hakeem over Moses anyday, just because of the 2 way dominance on the defensive end, and the fact that with the supporting cast Hakeem has shown he can succeed at all measures (while Moses got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round multiple times to inferior teams).


So I disagree, Shaq is right where he should be (he could have gone 7th, and you can't really disagree with either Hakeem or Shaq as both are solid at their positions (I'd say they're on a tier of their own with Duncan, Erving, and West). Remember it's a career list, and Moses although a fantastic player, he shouldn't be in the top 10.

[Bgil]

There's no way Dirk should be that far behind KG. Garnett has always been vastly overrated by the virtue of the meaningless stats he put up. He's the only guy I've ever seen that can lead the league ini rebounding (once the team lost all other quality rebounders) and still have his team outrebounded almost every night.

KG not a good number 1 option. He's the best number 2 option in the game though.

----

Elgin Baylor over Kobe Bryant? LOL


----

Can I get a show of hands of the people that actually saw George Mikan play? How many people here have ever even seen 10 full games of him? Few if any.

And Nash over the course of his career has not been as good as Dirk. He'd probably tell you himself that Dirk is the vastly superior player.

Rodman couldn't carry Webbers jock with a fork lift.

[TheSheriff]

There's no way Dirk should be that far behind KG. Garnett has always been vastly overrated by the virtue of the meaningless stats he put up. He's the only guy I've ever seen that can lead the league ini rebounding (once the team lost all other quality rebounders) and still have his team outrebounded almost every night.

KG not a good number 1 option. He's the best number 2 option in the game though.

Rodman couldn't carry Webbers jock with a fork lift.

Defense.

[Baller 24]

There's no way Dirk should be that far behind KG. Garnett has always been vastly overrated by the virtue of the meaningless stats he put up. He's the only guy I've ever seen that can lead the league ini rebounding (once the team lost all other quality rebounders) and still have his team outrebounded almost every night.

Then you look at the career two-way defensive dominance of KG, while all of the accomplishments and achievements he's done throughout his career. KG blows Dirk out of the water, then there's the "choker" label presented to Dirk throughout his career.

KG:
12-time NBA All-Star
1-time NBA Champion
(2008)
NBA Most Valuable Player
(2004)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year
(2008)
All-NBA First Team
(2000, 2003, 2004, 2008)
All-NBA Second Team
(2001, 2002, 2005)
All-NBA Third Team
(1999, 2007)
All-Defensive First Team
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008)
All-Defensive Second Team
(2006, 2007)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team
(1996)
NBA All-Star Game MVP
(2003)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award
(2006)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

8-time NBA All-Star
8-time All-NBA Teamer
2007 NBA Most Valuable Player

And I'm not even listing the other accomplishments in which KG blew Dirk out of the water from the start. Garnett throughout his career up until the 2003 seasons never had a supporting cast, and when he finally got one with Cassel and Sprewell, his team succeeded by all measures.

KG not a good number 1 option. He's the best number 2 option in the game though.

You can't honestly sit there and say that Paul Pierce was the number 1 option of the 2008 Celtics. Without KG, there would be no championship, there was a reason MVP voters regarded KG as the player with the higher team impact, he was the clear cut number 1 option, and held the most significance in his team's success last season. He's a fabulous number 1 option.

Elgin Baylor over Kobe Bryant? LOL

LOL I was expecting it, but your Lover boy is AHEAD of Baylor, not behind.

Can I get a show of hands of the people that actually saw George Mikan play? How many people here have ever even seen 10 full games of him? Few if any.

Meh, the games first superstar, I wasn't up for him being in the top 50, but since it's career based, you can't disregard his accomplishments.

And Nash over the course of his career has not been as good as Dirk. He'd probably tell you himself that Dirk is the vastly superior player.

Yeah, but Dirk isn't on the level of KG.

Rodman couldn't carry Webbers jock with a fork lift.

It's a career list, Rodman's had a lot of significance in the championship runs of every team he's been on. But aside from a couple of 2-3 seasons when Webber wasn't peaking he's had an injury prone career, he's been labeled a choker many times throughout his career.

[Bgil]

It's a career list, Rodman's had a lot of significance in the championship runs of every team he's been on. But aside from a couple of 2-3 seasons when Webber wasn't peaking he's had an injury prone career, he's been labeled a choker many times throughout his career.

Rodman was a great role player. Chris Webber was a star. At no point would anyone have traded Chris Webber straight up for Rodman even if they started their careers in the same year. Rodman isn't regarded as a choker because he was never asked to shoulder any offensive load at all.

Then you look at the career two-way defensive dominance of KG, while all of the accomplishments and achievements he's done throughout his career. KG blows Dirk out of the water, then there's the "choker" label presented to Dirk throughout his career.

How the hell is Dirk a choker if KG isn't? Before last season KG had 1 WC Finals appearance and 7 straight first round losses. Not to mention 3 straight years in the lottery. By my count he came up clutch/big in 1 or 2 crucial playoffs game ever. Then again Dirks probably choke more because he's consistiently gone deeper in the playoffs. Hard to choke when you're not in the game, huh?

I'm not saying Dirk is better than KG but the amount of space between the two is not huge... especially considering how overrated Garnetts defense was for the majority of his career and how much better Dirk is offensively (more than twice as many 30 point games).

[quoteAnd I'm not even listing the other accomplishments in which KG blew Dirk out of the water from the start. Garnett throughout his career up until the 2003 seasons never had a supporting cast, and when he finally got one with Cassel and Sprewell, his team succeeded by all measures.][/quote]

Garnett had a solid supporting cast at various times in Minnesota. Billups, Brandon, Wally, Googs... all passed through there and help the team win 50+ games. They just choked in the first round every year. Mostly it was because KG lacks any kind of ability to create his own shot at the end of games or take over offensively. Dirk doesn't have that problem. Cassell and Spree never had that problem either.

You can't honestly sit there and say that Paul Pierce was the number 1 option of the 2008 Celtics.

You bet your ass you can. Who got Finals MVP? Who averaged the most points over the season? who did they go to in the clutch? Who dropped 45 in game 7 against the Cavs?

Without KG, there would be no championship, there was a reason MVP voters regarded KG as the player with the higher team impact,

Yes, KG was the defensive soul of a defensive team but on offense PP was and still is the number 1 option.

Meh, the games first superstar, I wasn't up for him being in the top 50, but since it's career based, you can't disregard his accomplishments.

It was a league that barely resembled the NBA today. NBA Finals games were even regularly televised until decades later. The NBA Finals was shown tape-delayed almost 25 years after he retired. He won his MVP awards when the league only had 12 teams. etc. etc. etc.

Most importantly, no one on this forum ever saw him play.

[Warspite]

Bgil

75% of this board never saw DrJ play
50% of this board never saw prime MJ play



I have seen Mikan play about 4 or 5 games and no you cant watch the whole game because its a newsreel so its like an extended Sorts Center. According to you I guess since it wasnt on TV it shouldnt count. That means WWII never happened and none of the Presidential elections before Kennedy count.

The Heat, Mavs, Lakers and Cavs have all reached the Finals the last few yrs with teams that would struggle to make the playoffs in the past and might only win 30 games some yrs but we dont dismiss there accomplishments or say that there frauds because they played in 30 team watered down league. Heck Im not sure some of these bottom seeded playoff teams of today could win the NCAA tourney 25 yrs ago. Id bet the 82 UNC or 84 Georgetown teams could make the playoffs today. Are we to disregard Kobes MVP because he won it in a era void of HoF talent?

Mikans awards and rings have = merit with Kobes or Shaqs. Being the best among your peers is all you can do because you cant choose who your peers are.

[TheSheriff]

It's a career list, Rodman's had a lot of significance in the championship runs of every team he's been on. But aside from a couple of 2-3 seasons when Webber wasn't peaking he's had an injury prone career, he's been labeled a choker many times throughout his career.

Rodman was a great role player. Chris Webber was a star. At no point would anyone have traded Chris Webber straight up for Rodman even if they started their careers in the same year. Rodman isn't regarded as a choker because he was never asked to shoulder any offensive load at all.

Then you look at the career two-way defensive dominance of KG, while all of the accomplishments and achievements he's done throughout his career. KG blows Dirk out of the water, then there's the "choker" label presented to Dirk throughout his career.

How the hell is Dirk a choker if KG isn't? Before last season KG had 1 WC Finals appearance and 7 straight first round losses. Not to mention 3 straight years in the lottery. By my count he came up clutch/big in 1 or 2 crucial playoffs game ever. Then again Dirks probably choke more because he's consistiently gone deeper in the playoffs. Hard to choke when you're not in the game, huh?

I'm not saying Dirk is better than KG but the amount of space between the two is not huge... especially considering how overrated Garnetts defense was for the majority of his career and how much better Dirk is offensively (more than twice as many 30 point games).

[quoteAnd I'm not even listing the other accomplishments in which KG blew Dirk out of the water from the start. Garnett throughout his career up until the 2003 seasons never had a supporting cast, and when he finally got one with Cassel and Sprewell, his team succeeded by all measures.]

Garnett had a solid supporting cast at various times in Minnesota. Billups, Brandon, Wally, Googs... all passed through there and help the team win 50+ games. They just choked in the first round every year. Mostly it was because KG lacks any kind of ability to create his own shot at the end of games or take over offensively. Dirk doesn't have that problem. Cassell and Spree never had that problem either.

You can't honestly sit there and say that Paul Pierce was the number 1 option of the 2008 Celtics.

You bet your ass you can. Who got Finals MVP? Who averaged the most points over the season? who did they go to in the clutch? Who dropped 45 in game 7 against the Cavs?

Without KG, there would be no championship, there was a reason MVP voters regarded KG as the player with the higher team impact,

Yes, KG was the defensive soul of a defensive team but on offense PP was and still is the number 1 option.
[/quote]

There is so much more to basketball than volume scoring. So much more. When you consider everything in his career, KG is much closer to Duncan than he is to Dirk.

Here is a good article on why, Dave Berri: "Speeding Up Time for Bill Simmons

[TheSheriff]

It was a league that barely resembled the NBA today. NBA Finals games were even regularly televised until decades later. The NBA Finals was shown tape-delayed almost 25 years after he retired. He won his MVP awards when the league only had 12 teams. etc. etc. etc.

Most importantly, no one on this forum ever saw him play.

Using that logic to make this list. I would not be able to put Kareem in the top 50 because i never saw him play before he came to LA. I would not be able to vote for Russell or Wilt... I can look at his play and compare it to his peers. I can read the contemporary reports of his play. I can the the opinions of basketball geniuses like Red Auerbach. I can watch his highlight reels. Doing those things, i what makes me be able to say that Mikan is certainly top 50.

[Baller 24]

Rodman was a great role player. Chris Webber was a star. At no point would anyone have traded Chris Webber straight up for Rodman even if they started their careers in the same year. Rodman isn't regarded as a choker because he was never asked to shoulder any offensive load at all.

Webber though aside from 2-3 PEAK seasons was regarded as a choker and most importantly injury prone player, both early one, and later on. Rodman on the other hand from his rookie year and on until the Bulls last championship which is roughly about 9-10 years; played a significant role on the Pistons, Spurs, and Bulls. He's the one that frustrated Magic, he's the one that simply SHUT DOWN Bird in the '88 eastern conference finals, he gave problems to Malone and Kemp. He played a very significant role on every single team he played for, and although Webber at his peak was regarded the higher player, based on career achievements Webber is behind for the fact that aside from the 2-3 years at peak form, he fell fast and hard before AND after.

How the hell is Dirk a choker if KG isn't? Before last season KG had 1 WC Finals appearance and 7 straight first round losses. Not to mention 3 straight years in the lottery. By my count he came up clutch/big in 1 or 2 crucial playoffs game ever. Then again Dirks probably choke more because he's consistiently gone deeper in the playoffs. Hard to choke when you're not in the game, huh?

This is easy, Dirk has ALWAYS had a good supporting cast, they've helped him through the playoffs, but when he choked, he choked HARD: '06 Finals, '07 Playoffs, that's clearly not the same compared to KG who hasn't had the same kind of supporting cast, but lost to teams that CLEARLY were superior to his.

I'm not saying Dirk is better than KG but the amount of space between the two is not huge... especially considering how overrated Garnetts defense was for the majority of his career and how much better Dirk is offensively (more than twice as many 30 point games).

Dirk's the better shooter/scorer, but KG's the better low post, high post player, better passer, better rebounder, and a MUCH better defender.

Garnett had a solid supporting cast at various times in Minnesota. Billups, Brandon, Wally, Googs... all passed through there and help the team win 50+ games. They just choked in the first round every year. Mostly it was because KG lacks any kind of ability to create his own shot at the end of games or take over offensively. Dirk doesn't have that problem. Cassell and Spree never had that problem either.

You're right, 7 consecutive first round exits, but check it out:
1997: 40-42 T-Wolves, cast: Marbury, Gugliotta, and Mitchell, they lost to the 56-26 Rockets who were led by Barkley, Drexler, and Olajuwon.

1998: 45-37 T-Wolves, cast: Tom Gugliotta, Stephon Marbury, Anthony Peeler, Sam Mitchell, they lost to the 61-21 Sonics led by Gary Payton, and Vin Baker.

1999: 25-25 T-Wolves, cast: Joe Smith, Sam Mitchell, Bobby Jackson, Stephon Marbury, they lost to the eventual '99 Champions Spurs led by Tim Duncan and David Robinson

2000: 50-32 T-Wolves, cast: Kevin Garnett, Terrell Brandon, Wally Szczerbiak, Malik Sealy, Joe Smith, they lost the 59-23 Blazers that took Shaq/Kobe to a game 7 in the WCF and almost won.

2001: 47-35 T-Wolves, cast: Terrell Brandon, Wally Szczerbiak, Anthony Peeler, LaPhonso Ellis, Chauncey Billups, they lost to the 1st seed Spurs led by Tim Duncan.

2002: 50-32 T-Wolves, cast: Wally Szczerbiak, Chauncey Billups, Joe Smith, Anthony Peeler, Rasho Nesterovic, they lost to the 50-32 Mavs led by Dirk, Nash, and Finley.

2003: 51-31 T-Wolves, cast: Wally Szczerbiak, Troy Hudson, Rasho Nesterovic, Kendall Gill, Anthony Peeler lost to the Lakers led by Shaq/Kobe.

Now, look at the main contributors that supporting KG throughout his first 7 playoff exits. Then compare that to the teams he lost against. The '97 Rockets west to the WCF, the '98 Sonics went to the 2nd round, the '99 Spurs won the championship, the '00 Blazers went to the WCF and almost beat Shaq/Kobe, the '01 Spurs went to the 2nd round, the '02 Mavs lost in the 2nd round, the '03 Lakers lost to Duncan in the 2nd round. Either way, the teams KG faced in the playoffs CLEARLY had the superior supporting cast in players and were overall a much more inferior team. Don't hype Billups like he was some champion, before the '04 playoffs many considered Rip Hamilton to be the better player for the Pistons.

Billups:

Code: Select all

 
FG   3PT  AST    PPG
.422   .376   3.4   9.3
.423   .394   5.5   12.5

Wally:

Code: Select all

 
FG   3PT  REB    PPG
.511   .359   3.7   11.6
.510   .338   5.5   14.0
.508   .455   4.8   18.7
.481   .421   4.6   17.6

Rasho:

Code: Select all

FG   REB    BLK   PPG
.476   4.6   1.0   5.7
.461   3.9   0.9   4.5
.493   6.5   1.3   8.4
.525   6.5   1.5   11.2

Peeler:

Code: Select all

.379   .298   9.6
.436   .333   9.8
.421   .391   10.5
.421   .392   9.0
.414   .410   7.7

Smith:

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB   PPG
.427   8.2   13.7
.464   6.2   9.9
.511   6.3   10.7
.460   5.0   7.5

Brandon:

Code: Select all

 
FG   3PT  AST    PPG
.466   .402   8.9   17.1
.451   .363   7.5   16.0

His supporting cast was watered down in every single exit, and the opposing team CLEARLY had the advantage, there really isn't much to say or argue.

And in '04 he finally gets two reliable players that in the past season showed they have a true significance in their style of player. 58-24, cast: Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell, Fred Hoiberg. They went all the way to the conference finals and lost to the Lakers, but that could have been ultimately a different story if Cassell wasn't hurt. In '05 Casell was injured, in '06 they added McCants, Ricky Davis, Mike James and Mark Blount, and in '07 they added a rookie in Foye, so I'm not really seeing an arguments to say why they should have gotten to the playoffs.

Dirk has been blessed with good management and a supporting cast every single season, and in the '06 finals he clearly choked, what about the '67 win Mavs team that was on pace to SWEEP the playoffs? they lost to the 8th seeded Warriors that made the playoffs on the last game of the season. To make it easier, Dirk > KG in the choking department, and it really isn't even close to what Dirk has done, because you look at their supporting casts and there really isn't anything to argue about.

You bet your ass you can. Who got Finals MVP?

Right. So that automatically determines the number 1 option? Tony Parker, James Worthy, Cedric Maxwell, Jo Jo White, and Willis Reed can think that all they want, but Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Dave Cowens, and Walt Frazier all say HELLO!

Who averaged the most points over the season?

Pierce averaged a point more, if Pierce's team impact was really regarded as high as you say, there would be a different reflection in the MVP voting process.

who did they go to in the clutch? Who dropped 45 in game 7 against the Cavs?

So where was "The Truth" when the Hawks took him to 7 games?

Code: Select all

 
FG   PTS
.400   16
.500   14
.385   17
.357   18
.588   22
.583   17
.350   22

Where was "The Truth" when the Cavs took him to 7 games?

Code: Select all

 
FG   PTS
.143   4
.538   19
.375   14
.353   13
.421   29
.333   16
.565   41

Aside from game 7, Pierce could have done something for the series not to go to 7 games in the first place. Same can be said for the Hawks.

KG v Hawks:

Code: Select all

 
FG  REB   AST    PTS
.421   10   4   16
.333   10   3   19
.579   10   3   32
.429   9   1   20
.533   5   7   20
.471   7   6   22
.692   11   3   18

Code: Select all

 
FG  REB   AST   PTS
.591   8   3   28
.556   12   4   13
.615   9   2   17
.462   10   4   15
.632   16   4   26
.524   8   2   25
.385   13   3   13


It was a league that barely resembled the NBA today. NBA Finals games were even regularly televised until decades later. The NBA Finals was shown tape-delayed almost 25 years after he retired. He won his MVP awards when the league only had 12 teams. etc. etc. etc.

Most importantly, no one on this forum ever saw him play.

Well Russell won his when the league was at 8, but obviously there was an increase in production and talent in the '60s compared to when Mikan played the game, though I'm not going to argue this one that much, I'm really with you in the fact that he shouldn't have been in the top 30/50, but you can't just disregard all of his accomplishments.

[UDRIH14]

Gone through 82 players,

yet i dont see tony parker on the list? his outplayed a few of them pgs on that lists, and his achievements are comparable to some of them players even if he was 2nd fiddle to Duncan, you gotto give credit where its due.....

[Baller 24]

He's coming up.

[penbeast0]

no, he probably isn't. His career is just a bit too short for his talent level to make the top 100 . . . I might put him in over someone like Tim Hardaway but most would vote in Chauncey Billups, Timmy, Mark Price, Lenny Wilkens . . . and for that matter, Mark Jackson first . . . and we are running out of spots.

[shawngoat23]

no, he probably isn't. His career is just a bit too short for his talent level to make the top 100 . . . I might put him in over someone like Tim Hardaway but most would vote in Chauncey Billups, Timmy, Mark Price, Lenny Wilkens . . . and for that matter, Mark Jackson first . . . and we are running out of spots.

Agreed. I wouldn't have him in the top 100, although I would have no objection if he were nominated at any point from now.

[Baller 24]

Rafer Alston...now that's a different story. To some(SB) he's considered the GOAT ball handler.

[carrottop12]

It will be ridiculous is Penny gets in ahead of Reggie Miller or Ray Allen.

Penny had a great start to his career, and could have been a good player, but he never accomplished all that much, he's getting overhyped for what could have been. You can't take him over proven guys like Ray and Reggie.

Reggie Miller is getting severely underrated, he was a winner, and took some not so great teams to some very good battles with the greatest player of all time.