2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

fatal9 · Post #2141 » by **fatal9** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:42 pm

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705040UTA.html

Someone look at the +/- of that game and tell me if it makes sense. Jazz won the game by 16 points.

Look at Q2, Jazz outscore the Lakers by 10 points, and Stockton plays 12 minutes but his +/- is -6. Is this a single game issue or have you guys found lot of these inconsistencies as well?

Post #2142 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:53 pm

fatal9 wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705040UTA.html

Someone look at the +/- of that game and tell me if it makes sense. Jazz won the game by 16 points.

Look at Q2, Jazz outscore the Lakers by 10 points, and Stockton plays 12 minutes but his +/- is -6. Is this a single game issue or have you guys found lot of these inconsistencies as well?

No way that +/- is correct for that game. Gah, dammit.

but, great to see you fatal!

Senior · Post #2143 » by **Senior** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:53 pm

fatal9 wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705040UTA.html

Someone look at the +/- of that game and tell me if it makes sense. Jazz won the game by 16 points.

Look at Q2, Jazz outscore the Lakers by 10 points, and Stockton plays 12 minutes but his +/- is -6. Is this a single game issue or have you guys found lot of these inconsistencies as well?

it goes beyond that particular game. game 5 of 97 finals chi outscores utah 23-16, pippen/mj/kerr all play the entire quarter but go +13

some other wackiness in the 97 utah/la series too (like some guys playing 12:02 in 1 quarter, kobe/NVE/kersey going +9 in q4 game 5 where la outscored utah 28-23)

colts18 · Post #2144 » by **colts18** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:04 pm

The 1997 numbers seem screwy. I believe the numbers from 98 onwards are more accurate.

RCM88x · Post #2145 » by **RCM88x** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:17 pm

The administrators of BBRef do read this forum, I imagine?

LA Bird · Post #2146 » by **LA Bird** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:04 pm

fatal9 wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705040UTA.html

Someone look at the +/- of that game and tell me if it makes sense. Jazz won the game by 16 points.

Look at Q2, Jazz outscore the Lakers by 10 points, and Stockton plays 12 minutes but his +/- is -6. Is this a single game issue or have you guys found lot of these inconsistencies as well?

Yeah, that is completely wrong. The official +/- is available at https://stats.nba.com/game/0049600041/
Game 3 is the only game in that series where the BBR +/- is exactly the same as NBA's. All the other games differ slightly, though none near as egregious as the Game 1 you pointed out.

Post #2147 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:51 pm

RCM88x wrote:The administrators of BBRef do read this forum, I imagine?

I wouldn't assume that. I know that Neil Paine took advisement from ElGee for the oldtimey ORtg/DRtg estimates (they showed up here first during the RPOY, and eventually bkref had them), but that's different from them seeing each thread, and I don't even know who is running the day-to-day now.

Post #2148 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:51 pm

LA Bird wrote:
fatal9 wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705040UTA.html

Someone look at the +/- of that game and tell me if it makes sense. Jazz won the game by 16 points.

Look at Q2, Jazz outscore the Lakers by 10 points, and Stockton plays 12 minutes but his +/- is -6. Is this a single game issue or have you guys found lot of these inconsistencies as well?

Yeah, that is completely wrong. The official +/- is available at https://stats.nba.com/game/0049600041/
Game 3 is the only game in that series where the BBR +/- is exactly the same as NBA's. All the other games differ slightly, though none near as egregious as the Game 1 you pointed out.

Has anyone seen these issues in later seasons on bkref?

ShotCreator · Post #2149 » by **ShotCreator** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:52 pm

D-Rob ran out a +12 on court and +27 on/off from the 98 to 01 playoffs.

And +20.4 net on-court and +35 net on/off in the 99 title run.

Colts18 had this old post going over how historic D-Rob’s 99 playoff defense had to be. But I haven’t found it in years.

This is the confirmation. He had to be their best player up until the early 00’s.

eminence · Post #2150 » by **eminence** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:51 pm

ShotCreator wrote:D-Rob ran out a +12 on court and +27 on/off from the 98 to 01 playoffs.

And +20.4 net on-court and +35 net on/off in the 99 title run.

Colts18 had this old post going over how historic D-Rob’s 99 playoff defense had to be. But I haven’t found it in years.

This is the confirmation. He had to be their best player up until the early 00’s.

I'd buy through '99 maybe '00, but there's no argument for Robinson from '01 on.

bondom34 · Post #2151 » by **bondom34** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 pm

I usually hate Twitter polls like this but the pictures are perfect :lol:

Read on Twitter

eminence · Post #2152 » by **eminence** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:01 pm

And that Wiggins/Looney/Pick for CP3 trade is one of the most fun ones to imagine I've seen on the T&T board for a long time. I'd love to see that Warriors squad.

ardee · Post #2153 » by **ardee** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:35 pm

eminence wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:D-Rob ran out a +12 on court and +27 on/off from the 98 to 01 playoffs.

And +20.4 net on-court and +35 net on/off in the 99 title run.

Colts18 had this old post going over how historic D-Rob’s 99 playoff defense had to be. But I haven’t found it in years.

This is the confirmation. He had to be their best player up until the early 00’s.

I'd buy through '99 maybe '00, but there's no argument for Robinson from '01 on.

I've had him as the best player in the league in 1999 for a while now, and honestly if you think he's better than TD in 2000 he has a case for top 5, possibly even 3. Shaq obviously no. 1, the guys in contention for the other 4 spots are Malone, Hill, Mourning, Payton, and KG I guess? I think top 3 is reasonable, might only take Mourning and Malone over him from those guys.

2001 he's def worse than Duncan but still a very very good and underrated player I'll say, albeit in 30 mpg. Led the league in WS/48, had 2.5 blocks per game in addition to the crazy Playoff impact stats. He was even beasting in the Playoffs from a raw numbers perspective... 19/14/4 with 1.5 steals and 2.7 blocks. I'd argue this is actually a top 10 caliber season. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Dirk... not sure how many others I'd take over him?

If you think about it, this does add a lot of value to Robinson's career, even moreso than the tail end of Duncan's Spurs career. He was top 5 essentially from '91-'00 (excluding the injury year in '97) and top 10 '90 and '01 (I think '90 DRob would be top 5 a lot of years... just that 1990 may have been the most loaded year ever).

I'm thinking more and more he has a case to be very very high on the ATL and is without a shadow of a doubt the third best player of the 90s (in fact wouldn't give Malone or Barkley even a chance). Might start thinking of him as coming close to Dirk/Oscar level. His impact was just freaking tremendous.

Jaivl · Post #2154 » by **Jaivl** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:06 am

eminence wrote:And that Wiggins/Looney/Pick for CP3 trade is one of the most fun ones to imagine I've seen on the T&T board for a long time. I'd love to see that Warriors squad.

No it's not.

Post #2155 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:13 pm

I've been thinking about the fact that the Mavs literally had the greatest offense in history according to ORtg. Curious how you all see that.

Do you see that offense as uniquely unstoppable?
Given where the rating already is, do you think it can still seriously improve?

toodles23 · Post #2156 » by **toodles23** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:46 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I've been thinking about the fact that the Mavs literally had the greatest offense in history according to ORtg. Curious how you all see that.

Do you see that offense as uniquely unstoppable?
Given where the rating already is, do you think it can still seriously improve?

Very hard to know what to make of it without seeing them in the playoffs. My guess is Luka still has some very exploitable weaknesses that would be exposed against good playoff defenses (he's just a 21 year old kid in his 2nd season) and there's nobody else on the roster who's anything special at all as a playmaker, though unfortunately we probably won't see it

It's crazy they're doing this you look at the roster. Luka's great but again he just turned 21, Zinger is mostly a glorified spot up shooter, and... well that's basically it as far as notable talent.

RCM88x · Post #2157 » by **RCM88x** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:34 pm

toodles23 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I've been thinking about the fact that the Mavs literally had the greatest offense in history according to ORtg. Curious how you all see that.

Do you see that offense as uniquely unstoppable?
Given where the rating already is, do you think it can still seriously improve?

Very hard to know what to make of it without seeing them in the playoffs. My guess is Luka still has some very exploitable weaknesses that would be exposed against good playoff defenses (he's just a 21 year old kid in his 2nd season) and there's nobody else on the roster who's anything special at all as a playmaker, though unfortunately we probably won't see it

It's crazy they're doing this you look at the roster. Luka's great but again he just turned 21, Zinger is mostly a glorified spot up shooter, and... well that's basically it as far as notable talent.

Crazy thing too is that they're "only" a +6.3 offense currently.

Also, sort of funny, the 04 Mavs were a crazy +9.2 offense and only had a 112.1 ORTG. From my brief searching that's the highest relative ORTG in the 3pt era. Average ORTG this season is 110.4 lmao.

Post #2158 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:44 pm

RCM88x wrote:
toodles23 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I've been thinking about the fact that the Mavs literally had the greatest offense in history according to ORtg. Curious how you all see that.

Do you see that offense as uniquely unstoppable?
Given where the rating already is, do you think it can still seriously improve?

Very hard to know what to make of it without seeing them in the playoffs. My guess is Luka still has some very exploitable weaknesses that would be exposed against good playoff defenses (he's just a 21 year old kid in his 2nd season) and there's nobody else on the roster who's anything special at all as a playmaker, though unfortunately we probably won't see it

It's crazy they're doing this you look at the roster. Luka's great but again he just turned 21, Zinger is mostly a glorified spot up shooter, and... well that's basically it as far as notable talent.

Crazy thing too is that they're "only" a +6.3 offense currently.

Also, sort of funny, the 04 Mavs were a crazy +9.2 offense and only had a 112.1 ORTG. From my brief searching that's the highest relative ORTG in the 3pt era. Average ORTG this season is 110.4 lmao.

Even more crazy:

Nash in '04-05 had a higher on-court ORtg than anyone in the league in '19-20.

I'd say in general that I like looking both at in-era dominance and absolute. The truth is that if the current Mavs played around '04, they'd be considerably stronger than the '04 Mavs offense. They are being held back by defenses geared toward stopping a paradigm that that defenses in that time were basically not prepared for. The innovators deserve special love, but so do those who are simply more successful than other eras despite having defenses who built to stop such success.

JordansBulls · Post #2159 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:52 am

How do you play the Playoffs in 2020 if you start them up and then a player gets Covid-19?

Does that player have to be in quarantine for 14 days? What happens if that player is a marquee player? What do you do?

Essentially a team would either have to forfeit the series or the go the rest without said player.
The only other fair option would be simply to allow all players to play and then let everyone get the virus (and then you talking about a major issue in this case)

colts18 · Post #2160 » by **colts18** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:18 am

JordansBulls wrote:How do you play the Playoffs in 2020 if you start them up and then a player gets Covid-19?

Does that player have to be in quarantine for 14 days? What happens if that player is a marquee player? What do you do?

Essentially a team would either have to forfeit the series or the go the rest without said player.
The only other fair option would be simply to allow all players to play and then let everyone get the virus (and then you talking about a major issue in this case)

How will JordanBulls cope with a playoff that contains ZERO HCA losses :lol: