2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[AussieBuck]

It's easy to point out Gianni's technical shortxomings which are definitely there but the actual outcome is there because of his athleticism, motor, desire. If he wasn't the guy nobody saw coming there'd be a million articles about how he facilitated a dinosaur defender in Lopez into an all defensive guy.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Even if Jazz win the title this year, people would praise Mitchell, Conely or anyone else simply because Gobert has to be underrated. Giannis and Davis are far from amazing defensively so far in the playoffs, why are they held to a different standard than Rudy?

Giannis has been doing a pretty good job guarding Jimmy Butler 1 on 1, which is actually something many at least on twitter got mad at him for not doing last year. I think Butler is like 8-32 in the series. He has like a 35 TS% too I think? You really can't do much better than that. And when you consider Giannis is basically a 7 footer who is fighting around a bunch of on-ball screens, I think that is worthy of praise.

AD's defense hasn't been great, and he has been making mistakes. That happens, and if you want to critique him, sure thing.

Butler has been terrible so far, but I don't think it has much to do with Giannis defense. Antetokumpo still doesn't provide good ball-handler defense on P&Rs and he gets lost off ball as well. The problem is that Butler isn't agressive so far. He spends way too much time for creating open looks, which gives Giannis enough time to recover. A lot of that is caused by Bucks excellent interior defense - Butler can't just attack Lopez inside with Giannis behind him.

Overall, Giannis does decent job so far, but I definitely wouldn't say that he's the reason why Butler struggles so much. Jimmy isn't himself, he missed a lot of easy shots and he doesn't play nearly as agressive as he used to.

So be it I guess. Lopez has been excellent defensively so kudos to him. But I will just say than Butler did quite possibly just have a career year and the fact he is so timid to score is noteworthy. And considering, the Bucks and Giannis were critiqued last year for their defense not being resilient, I do think Giannis' versatility perhaps should be applauded.

[HeartBreakKid]

I actually thought Giannis was playing great defense. After game 1, Giannis was getting teared apart (probably by GSP also, i'm sure) and I wanted to point out that his defense was perfectly fine. I think because he won DPOY while not being the best defensive player in the league people like to tear into him for that also.

[70sFan]

I actually thought Giannis was playing great defense. After game 1, Giannis was getting teared apart (probably by GSP also, i'm sure) and I wanted to point out that his defense was perfectly fine. I think because he won DPOY while not being the best defensive player in the league people like to tear into him for that also.

He's not bad, but I wouldn't call his defense great either. I guess we have different definition of "great" defense.

[70sFan]

It's easy to point out Gianni's technical shortxomings which are definitely there but the actual outcome is there because of his athleticism, motor, desire. If he wasn't the guy nobody saw coming there'd be a million articles about how he facilitated a dinosaur defender in Lopez into an all defensive guy.

Lopez has been excellent and it has nothing to do with Giannis.

[AussieBuck]

It's easy to point out Gianni's technical shortxomings which are definitely there but the actual outcome is there because of his athleticism, motor, desire. If he wasn't the guy nobody saw coming there'd be a million articles about how he facilitated a dinosaur defender in Lopez into an all defensive guy.

Lopez has been excellent and it has nothing to do with Giannis.

He's had a great series, he'll get played off the court other times when the opposition has a shooting pick and roll guard and/or a shooting 5.

[Colbinii]

It's easy to point out Gianni's technical shortxomings which are definitely there but the actual outcome is there because of his athleticism, motor, desire. If he wasn't the guy nobody saw coming there'd be a million articles about how he facilitated a dinosaur defender in Lopez into an all defensive guy.

Lopez has been excellent and it has nothing to do with Giannis.

He's had a great series, he'll get played off the court other times when the opposition has a shooting pick and roll guard and/or a shooting 5.

Doesn't mean he isn't a great defender though.

The shooting pick and roll guard really isn't that bad. The Bucks run drop coverage with Lopez defending the pick and roll. If anything its only a shooting 5 who would hurt Lopez.

[AussieBuck]

Lopez has been excellent and it has nothing to do with Giannis.

He's had a great series, he'll get played off the court other times when the opposition has a shooting pick and roll guard and/or a shooting 5.

Doesn't mean he isn't a great defender though.

The shooting pick and roll guard really isn't that bad. The Bucks run drop coverage with Lopez defending the pick and roll. If anything its only a shooting 5 who would hurt Lopez.

The drop allows shooters to play two on one in three point range. Teams get to pick who gets to take the shots so they can sustain lineups with just a couple of scorers. If the Bucks are going to get past the Nets I think it's likely because Tucker replaces him in our version of the super switchy death lineup. Brook just got an extra step slow this season and he couldn't afford it.

[Colbinii]

He's had a great series, he'll get played off the court other times when the opposition has a shooting pick and roll guard and/or a shooting 5.

Doesn't mean he isn't a great defender though.

The shooting pick and roll guard really isn't that bad. The Bucks run drop coverage with Lopez defending the pick and roll. If anything its only a shooting 5 who would hurt Lopez.

The drop allows shooters to play two on one in three point range. Teams get to pick who gets to take the shots so they can sustain lineups with just a couple of scorers. If the Bucks are going to get past the Nets I think it's likely because Tucker replaces him in our version of the super switchy death lineup. Brook just got an extra step slow this season and he couldn't afford it.

Lopez isn't going to play much versus the Nets but he may get some run. Lopez has been great this series against Bam and will be big against Philly after the Bucks beat the Nets.

I understand its 2 on 1. That's why I said its only detrimental if the 5 is a shooter...

[Doctor MJ]

Even if Jazz win the title this year, people would praise Mitchell, Conely or anyone else simply because Gobert has to be underrated. Giannis and Davis are far from amazing defensively so far in the playoffs, why are they held to a different standard than Rudy?

If the Jazz win the title this year on the back of great defense, I expect the general perception of Gobert to flip.

I think much of the skepticism toward Gobert this year as an MVP candidate is driven by the feeling that he gets exposed against tougher competition in the playoffs. Rings have a way of quelling such skepticism.

I'll add that if the Jazz were the team with the best record in the era soon after Russell's Celtics, Gobert would have won the MVP. The skepticism toward Gobert is due to an offensive bias that - while fans have always had to a degree - is a hell of a lot stronger in today's game where it really does seem like offense wins championships rather than defense.

If Gobert and the Jazz start proving this NBA folk wisdom wrong, we'll get different folk wisdom going forward.

Re: Gobert vs Giannis vs Davis.

Simple answer is that that the other two guys are two way stars.

I'd point out though that Giannis this season to me has been treated with less respect not simply compared to LeBron & KD - who have won titles - but compared to Harden, who really hasn't done much more than Giannis in the playoffs. But Harden doesn't have the same reputation for getting upset, and so Giannis gets disrespected more.

What about Davis? I mean he's had plenty of disrespect in his career as he's fallen short of GOAT-trajectory standards, but he did just win the title playing a form of defense that felt considerably more dominant against playoff offense than Gobert's has. If Gobert has a post-season run this year like that, the narrative bias will swing toward the French Rejection.

[70sFan]

It's easy to point out Gianni's technical shortxomings which are definitely there but the actual outcome is there because of his athleticism, motor, desire. If he wasn't the guy nobody saw coming there'd be a million articles about how he facilitated a dinosaur defender in Lopez into an all defensive guy.

Lopez has been excellent and it has nothing to do with Giannis.

He's had a great series, he'll get played off the court other times when the opposition has a shooting pick and roll guard and/or a shooting 5.

We will see, but even if that happens it doesn't mean that Lopez is a system player. He's very good defender, period. Giannis doesn't make him such.

[parsnips33]

When do we think we'll see the next 3peat in the NBA? Lakers look to be in a good position to repeat this year, although competition is stiff. Even if they did win it again this year, could they go for one more?

[HeartBreakKid]

When do we think we'll see the next 3peat in the NBA? Lakers look to be in a good position to repeat this year, although competition is stiff. Even if they did win it again this year, could they go for one more?

Good position? Lakers vs the field is certainly not in LA's favor.

[parsnips33]

When do we think we'll see the next 3peat in the NBA? Lakers look to be in a good position to repeat this year, although competition is stiff. Even if they did win it again this year, could they go for one more?

Good position? Lakers vs the field is certainly not in LA's favor.

You don't think they have a nice looking path to the WCF? Obviously they need to take care of business, but Portland/injured Nuggets doesn't seem like a crazy second round matchup.

[HeartBreakKid]

When do we think we'll see the next 3peat in the NBA? Lakers look to be in a good position to repeat this year, although competition is stiff. Even if they did win it again this year, could they go for one more?

Good position? Lakers vs the field is certainly not in LA's favor.

You don't think they have a nice looking path to the WCF? Obviously they need to take care of business, but Portland/injured Nuggets doesn't seem like a crazy second round matchup.

Well, you're basically saying if they get past the Suns - which is a big if, they might have an easy round 2. That still leaves round 3 and 4.



The Lakers aren't as good as they were last year, their best two players are not playing well, they have no homecourt advantage, and several of the teams in the East are in a better position than them to win a title.

The Lakers' chances of winning a title do not seem much higher than most of the other teams in the West.

The past 3peat teams looked really strong when defending their title. That's not the Lakers right now. West is looking open, and the West doesn't even have the most talented team(s) on top anymore.

[parsnips33]

Good position? Lakers vs the field is certainly not in LA's favor.

You don't think they have a nice looking path to the WCF? Obviously they need to take care of business, but Portland/injured Nuggets doesn't seem like a crazy second round matchup.

Well, you're basically saying if they get past the Suns - which is a big if, they might have an easy round 2. That still leaves round 3 and 4.



The Lakers aren't as good as they were last year, their best two players are not playing well, they have no homecourt advantage, and several of the teams in the East are in a better position than them to win a title.

The Lakers' chances of winning a title do not seem much higher than most of the other teams in the West.

The past 3peat teams looked really strong when defending their title. That's not the Lakers right now. West is looking open, and the West doesn't even have the most talented team(s) on top anymore.

Agree to disagree on that one then. Lakers still have the best defense in the league and a guy that can make something out of nothing with LeBron. I'm not saying they should be the favorite, but I still see them as the most likely team to come out the West.

[Colbinii]

You don't think they have a nice looking path to the WCF? Obviously they need to take care of business, but Portland/injured Nuggets doesn't seem like a crazy second round matchup.

Well, you're basically saying if they get past the Suns - which is a big if, they might have an easy round 2. That still leaves round 3 and 4.



The Lakers aren't as good as they were last year, their best two players are not playing well, they have no homecourt advantage, and several of the teams in the East are in a better position than them to win a title.

The Lakers' chances of winning a title do not seem much higher than most of the other teams in the West.

The past 3peat teams looked really strong when defending their title. That's not the Lakers right now. West is looking open, and the West doesn't even have the most talented team(s) on top anymore.

Agree to disagree on that one then. Lakers still have the best defense in the league and a guy that can make something out of nothing with LeBron. I'm not saying they should be the favorite, but I still see them as the most likely team to come out the West.

Most likely to make it out and then vs the field are two completely different statements.

Would you give the Lakers a 70% chance to beat the Blazers/Nuggets and also a 70% chance to beat the Jazz/Mavs/Clippers?

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not saying they should be the favorite, but I still see them as the most likely team to come out the West.

I think of the 8 saying they are the most likely is definitely a reasonable take. But whereas last year they were probably even money or better against the field, this year they might have say a 30% chance of winning the West. Still more than any other one team, but I'd say they are a meaningful dog against the field.

And yes I realize Lebron may make me look really stupid, but outside the Grizzlies and probably the Blazers I don't know that I'd be absolutely stunned if any of the other 6 survived the West bracket. Utah and Phoenix are legit at the top(assuming Paul isn't toast), and the Clippers, Mavericks, and Nuggets all have That Guy who can win series for you.

[falcolombardi]

i get the feeling defensive star centers like gobert are perenially underated because of the way defense is evaluated compared to offense

with defense, since there are less stats to use (points, assists) people often use opposing player stats (how many points did oppostie star score with this center om court or this player defending him) instead of impact in the opposite offense. this is also because people (understandably) dont trust defensive impact stats

also because people dont respect defense often cause the offensive ratings are higher than ever so people think good defense cannot make as big of a impact anymore which is pretty wrong

if a team allows 95 points in a 100 points average league and another allows 107 in a 112 points average league both are -5 defenses but they dont get the same respect which leds people to say defense is dead/irrelevant now

people dont apply the same standard to say shaq lakers offenses were trash because their offensive rating was mediocre by today standards and say offense didnt exist or was dead and irrelevant like they do now with defense

the intersection of those two thinghs probably makes defensive centers perenially underated imo

[Jaivl]

Well, you're basically saying if they get past the Suns - which is a big if, they might have an easy round 2. That still leaves round 3 and 4.



The Lakers aren't as good as they were last year, their best two players are not playing well, they have no homecourt advantage, and several of the teams in the East are in a better position than them to win a title.

The Lakers' chances of winning a title do not seem much higher than most of the other teams in the West.

The past 3peat teams looked really strong when defending their title. That's not the Lakers right now. West is looking open, and the West doesn't even have the most talented team(s) on top anymore.

Agree to disagree on that one then. Lakers still have the best defense in the league and a guy that can make something out of nothing with LeBron. I'm not saying they should be the favorite, but I still see them as the most likely team to come out the West.

Most likely to make it out and then vs the field are two completely different statements.

Would you give the Lakers a 70% chance to beat the Blazers/Nuggets and also a 70% chance to beat the Jazz/Mavs/Clippers?

Say you give them a 90% chance vs the Blazers/Nuggets, a 75% chance vs the Jazz/Mavs/Clippers and a 70% chance vs the Nets/76ers/Bucks...

That's already less chances than the rest of the field.