RealGM Top 100 #5

[Dr Positivity]

I'm glad Wilt was picked.

I'm no longer really convinced this is where he belongs, but now the discussion can move to other topics.

With that said, doesn't this sorta speak to the need for some sort of instant runoff system?

Clearly more people thought Wilt shouldn't be here, they just weren't united with respect to WHO deserved to be there instead.

I'm guessing Wilt would've still won. In IRV my Duncan vote comes off first. I had Bird 2nd. So it becomes 12 Wilt 10 Bird. Then the Shaq votes come off. If the tiebreaker is who had the most "real" #1 votes, Bird would need all 4 of those Shaq voters to go for him and not Wilt. 1 for Wilt makes it 13 13 at worst.

For Wilt to lose, he'd need all 5 voters who didn't vote for him or Bird, to vote for Bird 2nd. That seems statistically unlikely to me with the split otherwise

Or really put it this way. It was 12 out of 26 for Wilt. Meaning with 1 more vote, assuming that tiebreaker, he'd have been a lock. Even if all 5 of those guys ended up going Bird in the IRV - assuming that tiebreaker meaning 13 of 26 wins it for him - Wilt comes short by 1 vote. That isn't any more definitive than Wilt getting the most real #1 votes to me. What's more unjust, Bird getting less real #1 votes than Wilt but winning due to more 2nd place votes, or Wilt winning despite the majority not putting him #1. It's a tough call, both have questions.

In any case it's not the real problem many thought a non IRV system would present, which is someone winning a 30 vote panel with say 8 votes, far less than the majority. Both had enough support to deserve the spot

[rrravenred]

Next time we do this is 2014 or whatever, I'd like an IRV system rather than first past the post.

Would it have a huge effect on the outcome? Maybe not, but it'd give an accurate picture of the "pointy end" of the choice.

[ronnymac2]

Next time we do this is 2014 or whatever, I'd like an IRV system rather than first past the post.

Would it have a huge effect on the outcome? Maybe not, but it'd give an accurate picture of the "pointy end" of the choice.

I agree. As a person who voted for the simple system, I think IRV may have been the way to go...

[sp6r=underrated]

Fatal with just a ridiculously awesome post (again). I'll add that he broke his hand in a bar fight in 1985, which severely affected his shooting through the rest of the Philly series.

Bird is such a dumbass he's getting drunk in the post-season and injuring himself fighting in bars and this is an argument FOR Larry Bird. . In a sane world this is a big indictment of Larry Bird's 1985 season not an argument for it.

I'm amazed this remark didn't receive the derision, mocking and ridicule it so thoroughly deserved. Normally the discussions in these threads did a great job challenging all arguments but people missed a big one here. Bird by the admission of a Bird supporter severely damaged a PEAK PS, not prime PS but smack dab peak PS due to substance abuse and a capacity for interpersonal violence.

ElGee made a very stupid argument that needs to be addressed even a year later.

1. I would love to see how people would treat that incident if it involve someone like Shaq or Wilt. I suspect they would get a lot of criticism and deservedly so. Why the different standard?

Part of is both are regarded as underachievers so theirs flaws are held up against them to a vicious standard. Part of is that both are arrogant men who feuded with other individuals throughout their lives.

I can't imagine how Doctor MJ would treat Shaq if he did this. Actually I can. You could expect a 7 paragraph post in which Doctor MJ uses his high IQ to mock the intelligence of Shaq, degrade his prime and raise up players who underperformed the big fella. When it comes to Bird, he says well nothing.


Finally, part of it is size. People are just not as impressed with raw strength as finesse and it does not inspire love in the masses rather grudging credit. I do think part of the reason Hakeem is so loved on realgm is that he is a big man whose game had pleasing aesthetics.

The other reason is one in which I'm go touch a nerve.

2. I would love to see how this incident would be treated if it didn't involve a surly, poor white kid from the sticks and instead involved a surly black guy out of the ghetto. Not calling out ElGee here but I think a lot of fans and a lot of people would have a very different reaction. The problem in this area isn't that black athletes are held to a too tough standard. The problem is white athletes have white privilege.

[colts18]

Bird gets excused quite a bit for his poor playoff showings. I broke it down in the past and here is a summary of it:

"So out of 12 playoff years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career."