#1 Highest Peak of All Time (Jordan '91 wins)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq really wasn't the 2nd best defender in 2000 though. I think people look at LA's #1 DRtg, and attribute it to Shaq, when it was more about that whole rotation.

It's a bit strange to see the DPOY voting used when Eddie Jones was tied for #3 that year with Deke at 11 votes. Defense is not something I want the media voting on, but rather the coaches. The All-D team seems more reliable, and there you have guys like Payton, Duncan, KG, and even Shaq's very own teammate on the 1st team. Was Shaq really a better defender than these guys in 2000? I mean what great offensive centers were even in the NBA by 2000. If he were running around the court giving great help D like Dwight does, then I could see it, but shutting down old versions of Vlade, Longley, Sabonis, Smits.....just doesn't quite compare to MJ checking quality offensive perimeter/impact players.

It should be noted that Shaq didn't guard great offensive PFs either, while guys like Zo/Deke did. Shaq didn't check TD in the RS, nor did he guard Webber or Sheed in the PS. I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on the guy because I really thought he was great that year, but the reality is that he had a rather easy time with the crop of centers he faced.

To be honest I don't trust either All D or DPOY but your reasoning is off. Shaq was second team behind the best defender that year in a position where only one person makes it. Saying that Kobe, Duncan, and KG was voted first team and Shaq wasn't just proves that they were top 2 at their positions. Shaq's second team proves the exact same thing and he's also at center (not SG) and led the top ranked defense. And rebounding/keeping people out the paint by just being there made their defense better. He couldn't run around the court like Dwight but he could defend the area around the basket amazingly when he felt like it.
He also didn't guard the best PF because they needed their 7-2 325+ center in the paint. Makes sense to me.

Well, that's the thing. LA DID need Shaq to guard guys like Webber or Sheed when they got hot, but that's not something he was capable of doing defensively.

This is kind of my problem with elevating Shaq to the #2 defender in 00'. His major strength was in man2man situations, and on the defensive boards. But again, when you look at the crop of centers he faced....I'm not sure who you would call much of an offensive threat. There were certainly no Hakeem, Prime DRob, Ewing level scorers. I'm not even sure how many Andrew Bynum, Daugherty level guys there were.

Here are the Top 10 scorers at center in 2000, not named Shaq:
1) Zo - 21.7 PPG
2) DRob - 17.8 PPG
3) Ewing - 15.0 PPG
4) Smits - 12.9 PPG
5) Campbell - 12.7 PPG
6) Divac - 12.3 PPG
7) Ratcliff - 11.9 PPG
8) Sabonis - 11.8 PPG
9) Mutuombo - 11.5 PPG
10) Amaechi - 10.5 PPG
^
And that's the best 10 he faced. Nevermind the bottom 18 or so other stiffs.

Most of the threats came at PF or the wing, where Shaq wasn't exactly impactful defensively. Again, we're not talking about Dwight running around making up for the mistakes on the perimeter, we're talking about Harper/Kobe/Fox all playing really good defense. We're talking baout AC/Horry getting assigned Duncan, Webhead, Sheed, not Shaq. Shaq usually had the weakest defensive assignment of any of the starters in 2000.

If we talk about Russell, Hakeem, Rodman, and so on, we can see multiple ways in which they impacted the defensive side of the court. But with Shaq....we have a 1 year anomalie, which really looks more like a great team effort on D, than one man anchoring at a super level.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Ok, I'm not kidding when I say this:

If Jordan and Shaq can be argued over Wilt because their offense was so good...what about 09 LeBron?

I don't see how anyone can overlook how dominant he was (and still is) offensively, and he is a great defensive player too...his defensive impact for a wing is huge.

I don't see how Lebron's defensive impact was huge, when he didn't guard the guy who was killing the Cavs in the ECF. Meanwhile in the WCF, you have Kobe taking a much bigger Melo defensively, and a smaller Billups for much of the series. I wish we could transport the 2012 version of Lebron to 2009, because then we could have gotten the Finals matchup that everyone wanted, but 2009 Lebron wasn't at that level.

I would pick 2012 Bron over 2009 anyway.

[therealbig3]

Ok, I'm not kidding when I say this:

If Jordan and Shaq can be argued over Wilt because their offense was so good...what about 09 LeBron?

I don't see how anyone can overlook how dominant he was (and still is) offensively, and he is a great defensive player too...his defensive impact for a wing is huge.

I don't see how Lebron's defensive impact was huge, when he didn't guard the guy who was killing the Cavs in the ECF. Meanwhile in the WCF, you have Kobe taking a much bigger Melo defensively, and a smaller Billups for much of the series. I wish we could transport the 2012 version of Lebron to 2009, because then we could have gotten the Finals matchup that everyone wanted, but 2009 Lebron wasn't at that level.

I would pick 2012 Bron over 2009 anyway.

Well, LeBron was guarding Lewis, Turkoglu, and Alston, and all three of them struggled offensively when LeBron guarded them. Lewis went off because he was mainly guarded by Varejao, but if LeBron took Lewis, then Turkoglu would have been guarded by Varejao and then Turkoglu would have went off. Turkoglu was seen as the more important player to slow down.

And ok, what about 2012 LeBron vs 1967 Wilt? Shouldn't the same arguments for Jordan/Shaq apply to 2012 LeBron?

[SilkStream]

lol @ UBF trying so hard to discredit Shaq in every possible way using absolutely terrible logic.

#1. Shaq's help defense in 00 was fantastic.
He wasn't the type to get steals (very few C's/PF's are even in an All-Time sense) but he consistently showed hard on PnR's and played into his rotations perfectly.

The majority of his defensive impact came from his absolutely dominant post defense.
He made it close to impossible for opposing teams to score in the paint and altered countless shots that didn't get counted as blocks.

That meant most opposing teams were forced into shooting jumpers or forcing awkward off balance shots near the rim where Shaq would either block them or make them miss.

That teams defense was anchored by Shaq and was absolutely a direct product of his individual impact and had very little to do with team effort.

Fox was the only elite defender on that team outside of Shaq / Kobe and he got very little MPG in the regular season and even less in the playoffs.

Plus the LA defense actually improved during the regular season in the games when Kobe was out so you can't say it was a result of him (not that any logical thinking person would).

Shaq's post defense, rim protection and m2m defense were all absolutely dominant and his help defense was very good.
He was just a tremendous defensive anchor and honestly I think he was clearly robbed of the DPOY.
Zo was a good choice for the award but his defensive impact wasn't on par with Shaq's or even close really.

Shaq led a relatively mediocre defensive cast to the #1 defense and 6th in points allowed.
Zo led his team to the 7th best defense and 24th in points allowed! despite having stellar defenders like Bruce Bowen and Brown.

[C-izMe]

Shaq really wasn't the 2nd best defender in 2000 though. I think people look at LA's #1 DRtg, and attribute it to Shaq, when it was more about that whole rotation.

It's a bit strange to see the DPOY voting used when Eddie Jones was tied for #3 that year with Deke at 11 votes. Defense is not something I want the media voting on, but rather the coaches. The All-D team seems more reliable, and there you have guys like Payton, Duncan, KG, and even Shaq's very own teammate on the 1st team. Was Shaq really a better defender than these guys in 2000? I mean what great offensive centers were even in the NBA by 2000. If he were running around the court giving great help D like Dwight does, then I could see it, but shutting down old versions of Vlade, Longley, Sabonis, Smits.....just doesn't quite compare to MJ checking quality offensive perimeter/impact players.

It should be noted that Shaq didn't guard great offensive PFs either, while guys like Zo/Deke did. Shaq didn't check TD in the RS, nor did he guard Webber or Sheed in the PS. I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on the guy because I really thought he was great that year, but the reality is that he had a rather easy time with the crop of centers he faced.

To be honest I don't trust either All D or DPOY but your reasoning is off. Shaq was second team behind the best defender that year in a position where only one person makes it. Saying that Kobe, Duncan, and KG was voted first team and Shaq wasn't just proves that they were top 2 at their positions. Shaq's second team proves the exact same thing and he's also at center (not SG) and led the top ranked defense. And rebounding/keeping people out the paint by just being there made their defense better. He couldn't run around the court like Dwight but he could defend the area around the basket amazingly when he felt like it.
He also didn't guard the best PF because they needed their 7-2 325+ center in the paint. Makes sense to me.

Well, that's the thing. LA DID need Shaq to guard guys like Webber or Sheed when they got hot, but that's not something he was capable of doing defensively.

This is kind of my problem with elevating Shaq to the #2 defender in 00'. His major strength was in man2man situations, and on the defensive boards. But again, when you look at the crop of centers he faced....I'm not sure who you would call much of an offensive threat. There were certainly no Hakeem, Prime DRob, Ewing level scorers. I'm not even sure how many Andrew Bynum, Daugherty level guys there were.

Here are the Top 10 scorers at center in 2000, not named Shaq:
1) Zo - 21.7 PPG
2) DRob - 17.8 PPG
3) Ewing - 15.0 PPG
4) Smits - 12.9 PPG
5) Campbell - 12.7 PPG
6) Divac - 12.3 PPG
7) Ratcliff - 11.9 PPG
8) Sabonis - 11.8 PPG
9) Mutuombo - 11.5 PPG
10) Amaechi - 10.5 PPG
^
And that's the best 10 he faced. Nevermind the bottom 18 or so other stiffs.

Most of the threats came at PF or the wing, where Shaq wasn't exactly impactful defensively. Again, we're not talking about Dwight running around making up for the mistakes on the perimeter, we're talking about Harper/Kobe/Fox all playing really good defense. We're talking baout AC/Horry getting assigned Duncan, Webhead, Sheed, not Shaq. Shaq usually had the weakest defensive assignment of any of the starters in 2000.

If we talk about Russell, Hakeem, Rodman, and so on, we can see multiple ways in which they impacted the defensive side of the court. But with Shaq....we have a 1 year anomalie, which really looks more like a great team effort on D, than one man anchoring at a super level.

It was a one year anomaly because Shaq didn't always bring effort. He finally brough effort and his team ranked 1st in the league. And to add Shaq still ranked high as a defender in most early RAPM studies where we know he didn't give 100%. Having a giant man with hops in the paint helps a ton. Every great defender needs a team to help but if you can name one first ranked defense ever without a top 5 defender (that year at least) on it your argument would make sense.
And you said he needed to guard PFs but would you rather have a great lockdown defender or a man that could keep people (notice the plural form) out of the paint.
The only issue you can have with Shaq is that he couldn't guard the perimeter but he guarded the paint so well it wasn't an issue.

Ok, I'm not kidding when I say this:

If Jordan and Shaq can be argued over Wilt because their offense was so good...what about 09 LeBron?

I don't see how anyone can overlook how dominant he was (and still is) offensively, and he is a great defensive player too...his defensive impact for a wing is huge.

I don't see how Lebron's defensive impact was huge, when he didn't guard the guy who was killing the Cavs in the ECF. Meanwhile in the WCF, you have Kobe taking a much bigger Melo defensively, and a smaller Billups for much of the series. I wish we could transport the 2012 version of Lebron to 2009, because then we could have gotten the Finals matchup that everyone wanted, but 2009 Lebron wasn't at that level.

I would pick 2012 Bron over 2009 anyway.

Well, LeBron was guarding Lewis, Turkoglu, and Alston, and all three of them struggled offensively when LeBron guarded them. Lewis went off because he was mainly guarded by Varejao, but if LeBron took Lewis, then Turkoglu would have been guarded by Varejao and then Turkoglu would have went off. Turkoglu was seen as the more important player to slow down.

And ok, what about 2012 LeBron vs 1967 Wilt? Shouldn't the same arguments for Jordan/Shaq apply to 2012 LeBron?

None of the arguments for Jordan/Shaq apply to Lebron. Lebron (even in 09) is a worse defender than any of the bigs looking for this spot and is a worse offensive player than any perimeter player that can contend for a top 5 spot (86 Bird, 91MJ, 87Magic). He only ranks because of his balance that is great but probably not great enough to rank him over super dominan players. Add in the fact that many feel he played in a time when the league was catered for perimeter stars, he didn't win, and he's definetly worse than Jordan (in everyone's opinion) he doesn't have any type of case for the top spot. I personally rank him right under 87 Magic. And I expect to hear a lot about him from the 4th spot on.

And 12 Lebron isn't top 20.

[toodles23]

None of the arguments for Jordan/Shaq apply to Lebron. Lebron (even in 09) is a worse defender than any of the bigs looking for this spot and is a worse offensive player than any perimeter player that can contend for a top 5 spot (86 Bird, 91MJ, 87Magic). He only ranks because of his balance that is great but probably not great enough to rank him over super dominan players. Add in the fact that many feel he played in a time when the league was catered for perimeter stars, he didn't win, and he's definetly worse than Jordan (in everyone's opinion) he doesn't have any type of case for the top spot. I personally rank him right under 87 Magic. And I expect to hear a lot about him from the 4th spot on.

And 12 Lebron isn't top 20.

How do you know '09 Lebron is worse offensively than those other guys? He led the Cavs to the 4th best offense that year while putting up absurd numbers, especially his 35 ppg, 7 ast, 62 TS% postseason. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lebron never matched those guys offensively, but where's the evidence?

[Dipper 13]

their offense was so good

Only when it doesn't favor Wilt do place a heavy emphasis on the boxscore, right?



*2000 Lakers were roughly 3.2 pts better than league average in ORtg

*Based on estimates, the 1967 76ers were about 6.7 pts (more than double the Lakers) better than the league average in ORtg.


*Like the Sixers, the 1991 Bulls were roughly 6.7 pts better than league average in ORtg.

[Dipper 13]

On the other hand the Lakers DRtg was very impressive at 98.2, or 5.8 pts below league average.


Defensive commitment was the main difference in making this year Shaq's peak. I don't think his offensive abilities (physical skills) changed much, if at all from '98. Like Wilt, the difference was mental (triggered by coaching change).




Los Angeles Times - April 28, 1999

Just when you thought the pile atop the Lakers' crumpled body could grow no higher, add about seven feet.

The constellation of criticism surrounding basketball's infuriating underachievers now includes the Big Dipper.

"I don't cheer for any team," Wilt Chamberlain said this week by phone from his Los Angeles-area home. "But if I had to cheer for a team, it would be the Utah Jazz."

Chamberlain, a former Laker some claim is the greatest player in basketball history, did not initially call to evaluate his former team. At age 62, he is too busy with worldwide businesses and charity work to seek interviews.

He called to respond to a quote in this column last week in which Jerry West, Laker vice president, compared current team jealousies to the seemingly legendary problems between Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor.

Chamberlain said he wanted to set the record straight, that he and Baylor were friends whose "street talk" in the locker room was often misinterpreted as hostility.

But after that, he also set the Lakers straight.

* He said their biggest problem is Shaquille O'Neal's inability or refusal to play defense.

* He said Kobe Bryant has unfairly been cast as a "whipping boy," when more of the blame should go to Shaq.

* He said their recent struggles have also been due to the "terrible" trade of Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell for Glen Rice.

* He said West needs to be a more visible leader.

* He said the entire organization needs to change its focus, from flashiness to fundamentals, from scoring to defense.

"I go to a health club here in town, and people there know more about basketball than about anybody on the team, and every day they talk about the Laker problems," Chamberlain said. "They are very obvious problems."

Starting, he said, with Shaq.

"If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader--and has he been?--then he needs to do it more by example," Chamberlain said. "He needs to get down the court and play defense, instead of cherry picking by the basket for all those dunks.

"Too often the other team is on offense, and Shaq is not even at half court. Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."

Chamberlain, who says he watches at least five games a night on television when he is in town, pointed to a play in a recent loss to the Seattle SuperSonics.

"The Sonics passed the ball down the court for a dunk, and where was Shaq?" he said. "Shaq had not even crossed the half-court line, and that was the game. When you rest, you rest on offense, not defense."

Chamberlain, who has feuded with Shaq before, said he did not think the center can lead the team to a title until he makes more of a defensive commitment.

"Shaq is a championship player if he plays a certain way, but he's not playing that way right now," he said. "This is not a personal knock on Shaq. It's just about something he needs to improve."

What is personal, Chamberlain said, is the Lakers' apparent dislike of inconsistent Kobe Bryant.

"Kobe is taking the brunt for every problem they have, he has become their whipping boy, and that's wrong," he said. "A lot of his mistakes are just the exuberance of youth.

"If he makes a sensational play and they win, he's great. But if they lose, then he's a hot dog. That's not fair."

Chamberlain referred to Bryant's game-tying tip-in of a missed free throw in the final moments of an eventual win at Golden State.

"Lemme ask you, was that showboating?" Chamberlain said. "At this point, they should take the bad with the good and stop making their youngest player their fall guy."

Another unfairly maligned player, according to Chamberlain, was Eddie Jones.

"He was my favorite player on the team," he said. "That was a terrible trade."

Chamberlain said the Lakers overlooked Jones' effect on--there's that word again--defense. He said they also overestimated Glen Rice.

"Rice was hurt this year, right?" he said, referring to elbow surgery that caused him to start the season late and slowly. "So that made him an I-don't-know guy. And it turns out, he's an I-don't-know guy who can only shoot the ball."

Sources have been saying owner Jerry Buss ordered West to make that trade to dump salaries against the wishes of West, who didn't want to further distract the team in the wake of Dennis Rodman.

But Chamberlain said West needs to take more public responsibility for that trade's--and this season's--failures.

"When something big comes up, such as problems with Rodman, the man disappears," Chamberlain said of West.

Chamberlain said West never understood the relationship between Chamberlain and Baylor.

"Elgin and I have always been friends, and will always continue to be friends" Chamberlain said. "We got on each other's case all the time, but that was our culture, our way."

While Chamberlain is no longer directly involved in basketball, he was once part of a group that tried to buy the Toronto franchise.

He said he would not be averse to becoming part of another group to buy the Lakers from Buss, who may be thinking of selling after undergoing a long winter of unfamiliar scrutiny and criticism.

"I love this game. I owe my life to this game. It upsets me to see some of the things that happen in it," he said. "I would always be interested in anything that could help something I love."




Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Apr 30, 1999

Two of the Los Angeles Lakers' greatest stars of the past are joining in the criticism of the current Lakers.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said the Lakers were underachievers who lacked chemistry. Abdul-Jabbar, who helped the Lakers win five National Basketball Association titles in the 1980's, said Shaquille O'Neal lacked leadership and Kobe Bryant showed immaturity on the court.

Abdul-Jabbar's comments were reported Thursday, two days after the Los Angeles Times published comments by Wilt Chamberlain that focused on O'Neal as the source of the Lakers' problems.

Chamberlain, who helped the Lakers win the 1972 title, said the team's biggest problem was O'Neal's inability or refusal to play defense. He said Bryant had unfairly been cast as a "whipping boy" when more of the blame should go to O'Neal.

O'Neal dismissed the comments by Chamberlain, 62, by saying Thursday, "My mother told me to leave the elderly alone."

The backdrop for all of this is the Lakers' fade as the playoffs approach. Picked by many to win the title this year, they have faded to the No. 5 spot in the Western Conference.

"They have talented, highly paid athletes at every position and they're not getting it done," said Abdul-Jabbar, 52. "I don't think it's happening as a cohesive unit. (But) I haven't seen them practice. I don't know what's going on."

Abdul-Jabbar said O'Neal did a lot of good things on the court, but "he's not been able to lead his team all the way either emotionally or statistically. He comes up short.

"I am not on a crusade against Shaq... (But) it hasn't happened yet. Guys who can move around the pivot and score from eight or 10 feet give Shaq a lot of trouble.

Abdul-Jabbar called the 20-year old Bryant "a great young talent" but added, "He has to mature. He makes bad choices a lot in the games that hurt the team. That is an element of not playing college ball.

"There are times when he tries to do too much, whether it be going against the double-team or taking the 38-foot three-pointer with 20 seconds left on the clock. He's got talent, he just needs to make better decisions."

Of the blockbuster trade in March that sent Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell to the Charlotte Hornets for Glen Rice and J.R. Reid, Abdul-Jabbar said, "It doesn't seem like it's worked to the benefit of the Lakers; it hasn't improved their play."

Chamberlain also criticized the trade, but most of his comments were about O'Neal.

"If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader - and has he been? - then he needs to do it more by example," Chamberlain said. "He needs to get down the court and play defense instead of cherry picking by the basket for all those dunks. Too often the other team is on offense and Shaq is not even at half court. Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."

[SilkStream]

Chamberlain was pretty conceited and insecure.

For all his talk about defense many of the teams he led especially in his early years when he was his teams main offensive anchor were just terrible defensively.

He was an incredibly inconsistent and lazy defender before the late 60's where he changed his role from scorer to defender/rebounder/passer.

In 62 his best offensive season from a volume standpoint his team had the worst defense in the league despite him being healthy and playing in a league where defensive C's could have more impact then they have today.

[C-izMe]

None of the arguments for Jordan/Shaq apply to Lebron. Lebron (even in 09) is a worse defender than any of the bigs looking for this spot and is a worse offensive player than any perimeter player that can contend for a top 5 spot (86 Bird, 91MJ, 87Magic). He only ranks because of his balance that is great but probably not great enough to rank him over super dominan players. Add in the fact that many feel he played in a time when the league was catered for perimeter stars, he didn't win, and he's definetly worse than Jordan (in everyone's opinion) he doesn't have any type of case for the top spot. I personally rank him right under 87 Magic. And I expect to hear a lot about him from the 4th spot on.

And 12 Lebron isn't top 20.

How do you know '09 Lebron is worse offensively than those other guys? He led the Cavs to the 4th best offense that year while putting up absurd numbers, especially his 35 ppg, 7 ast, 62 TS% postseason. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lebron never matched those guys offensively, but where's the evidence?

He was great offensively but Magic, Jordan, and Bird were better.

91 Jordan (remember he played off ball) - 31.5ppg, 5.5apg, 60.5TS, 8.7TO% (PS - 31.1ppg, 8.4apg, 60TS, 8.9TO%)
87 Magic - 23.9ppg, 12.2apg, 60.2TS, 15.9TO% which is amazingly low for a passer (PS - 21.8ppg, 12.2apg, 60.7TS, 13.6TO%)
86 Bird - 25.8ppg, 2.3ORB, 6.8apg, 58TS,12.7TO% (PS - 25.9ppg, 1.9ORB, 8.2apg, 61.5TS, 11TO%)
Larry is the one that Lebron has the best case against.

[therealbig3]

This is how they look per 36:

91 MJ: 30.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.4 TOpg, .605 TS% (125 ORating)

87 Magic: 23.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.1 apg, 3.7 TOpg, .602 TS% (124 ORating)

86 Bird: 24.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.4 apg, 3.1 TOpg, .580 TS% (117 ORating)

09 LeBron: 27.2 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 2.8 TOpg, .591 TS% (122 ORating)


Playoffs per 36

91 MJ: 27.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 2.2 TOpg, .600 TS% (127 ORating)

87 Magic: 21.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 11.8 apg, 2.8 TOpg, .607 TS% (129 ORating)

86 Bird: 21.8 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg, .615 TS% (127 ORating)

09 LeBron: 30.7 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.4 TOpg, .618 TS% (128 ORating)


Regular season offense:

91 Bulls: +6.7 (1st)
87 Lakers: +7.3 (1st)
86 Celtics: +6.1 (3rd)
09 Cavs: +4.1 (4th)

And this is with LeBron having far worse offensive support.

BTW, I agree that Magic and Jordan were better offensive players, but not by all that much. And I do rank LeBron around the same level or maybe a bit higher than peak Bird offensively. Saying LeBron is clearly out of their league offensively just screams agenda, because the stats don't support it.

I'll look up how these teams performed offensively in the playoffs later.

LeBron was also the best offensive player in the league in 09, according to RAPM, and this is with prime Nash in the league (who is right up there with MJ/Magic/Bird offensively).

[drza]

Wow. I'm just coming off of a hell week at work, and I see that the project has finally kicked off and I'm so far behind on the discussion that there's no way I'm really going to make an impact here. That said, I'm a bit surprised with how the voting is going. I expected a Jordan season to be in the mix. I also knew folks loved Shaq's 2000 and Wilt's '67 so it's not surprising that they're there.

But I am a bit surprised that they are so exclusively on an island. With all of the logic and discussion about Russell in the RPoY project, I'm pretty surprised that he's not even getting a shout-out for his Mt. Everest defensive peak. I personally would have been tempted to have a Magic or Bird season in the mix, as well. And I think only Therealbigthree has been mentioning any recent players except for Shaq, focusing on LeBron...and I'll just say it, I think a) LeBron deserves to be mentioned and b) I'm not at all convinced that his peak season was any better than the peaks of Duncan or KG.

Anyway, just to get on the record I'll throw a vote at Russell, and hopefully I'll get to be a bit more active in the next thread.

Vote: Bill Russell 1965

[ardee]

This is how they look per 36:

91 MJ: 30.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.4 TOpg, .605 TS% (125 ORating)

87 Magic: 23.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.1 apg, 3.7 TOpg, .602 TS% (124 ORating)

86 Bird: 24.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.4 apg, 3.1 TOpg, .580 TS% (117 ORating)

09 LeBron: 27.2 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 2.8 TOpg, .591 TS% (122 ORating)


Playoffs per 36

91 MJ: 27.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 2.2 TOpg, .600 TS% (127 ORating)

87 Magic: 21.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 11.8 apg, 2.8 TOpg, .607 TS% (129 ORating)

86 Bird: 21.8 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg, .615 TS% (127 ORating)

09 LeBron: 30.7 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.4 TOpg, .618 TS% (128 ORating)


Regular season offense:

91 Bulls: +6.7 (1st)
87 Lakers: +7.3 (1st)
86 Celtics: +6.1 (3rd)
09 Cavs: +4.1 (4th)

And this is with LeBron having far worse offensive support.

BTW, I agree that Magic and Jordan were better offensive players, but not by all that much. And I do rank LeBron around the same level or maybe a bit higher than peak Bird offensively. Saying LeBron is clearly out of their league offensively just screams agenda, because the stats don't support it.

I'll look up how these teams performed offensively in the playoffs later.

LeBron was also the best offensive player in the league in 09, according to RAPM, and this is with prime Nash in the league (who is right up there with MJ/Magic/Bird offensively).

'09 was one of Nash's worst seasons as a Sun, fwiw.

[colts18]

Well, that's the thing. LA DID need Shaq to guard guys like Webber or Sheed when they got hot, but that's not something he was capable of doing defensively.

This is kind of my problem with elevating Shaq to the #2 defender in 00'. His major strength was in man2man situations, and on the defensive boards. But again, when you look at the crop of centers he faced....I'm not sure who you would call much of an offensive threat. There were certainly no Hakeem, Prime DRob, Ewing level scorers. I'm not even sure how many Andrew Bynum, Daugherty level guys there were.

Here are the Top 10 scorers at center in 2000, not named Shaq:
1) Zo - 21.7 PPG
2) DRob - 17.8 PPG
3) Ewing - 15.0 PPG
4) Smits - 12.9 PPG
5) Campbell - 12.7 PPG
6) Divac - 12.3 PPG
7) Ratcliff - 11.9 PPG
8) Sabonis - 11.8 PPG
9) Mutuombo - 11.5 PPG
10) Amaechi - 10.5 PPG

Here is what Shaq did against those top 5 guys.

vs. Shaq(parenthesis is regular season average)
Mourning: 27 PPG, 44.2 FG%, (21.7 PPG, 55.1 FG% )

DRob: 13.3PPG, 42.1 FG% (17.8 PPG, 51.2 FG%) (was 15 Points on 54.5 FG% in the game Shaq missed)

Ewing: 13 PPG, 32.4 FG% (15 PPG, 46.6 FG%)

Smits: 8 PPG, 47.1 FG% (12.9 PPG, 48.4 FG%), 10 PPG 46.6 FG% in finals vs. Shaq

Campbell: 7 PPG, 28.6 FG% (12.7 PPG, 44.6 FG%)

Average dropoff is 10.3 FG%. That is a significant dropoff.


Here is a comparison between Mourning and Shaq in 2000. This is the stats of all Centers in the league that played 24 minutes in a game vs Shaq/Mourning. This is Per 36:

vs. Shaq: 12.46 PPG, 42.5 FG%, .462 TS% 1.48 AST-1.68 TOV

vs. Mourning: 12.53 PPG, 45.4 FG%, .512 TS%, 1.23 AST-1.83 TOV

vs Shaq: 10% 20+ points, 25% 15+ points, 48% <10 points

vs. Mourning: 14% 20+ Points, 20% 15+ points, 44% <10 points

That looks to me like they are on the same level with a good argument that Shaq was better.

I have to also mention that those Centers averaged 4.35 Fouls/36 vs. Shaq (Mourning is 3.97). That's ridiculous. He drew so many fouls that he was an offensive force even without making FT's.

[C-izMe]

BTW, I agree that Magic and Jordan were better offensive players, but not by all that much. And I do rank LeBron around the same level or maybe a bit higher than peak Bird offensively. Saying LeBron is clearly out of their league offensively just screams agenda, because the stats don't support it.

All because it's clear doesn't mean that the gap is large. 8 is clearly over 7 but not by much...

[ThaRegul8r]

With all of the logic and discussion about Russell in the RPoY project, I'm pretty surprised that he's not even getting a shout-out for his Mt. Everest defensive peak.

I was the only one actually breaking down what Russell did in each individual season during the RPoY project, so I'm not sure why it would be expected that anyone would be talking about him now. There's no way in hell he would be a candidate for the #1 peak of all time, or be in the top five since there are so many offensive players to talk about. A defensive season will never be seriously considered as the greatest peak ever. That's just the way it is. I don't expect Russell to be a serious candidate until the latter half of the top 10 at the earliest. I expect he might appear somewhere in the top 15, as there are nine offensive players who immediately come to mind whose seasons I could see being voted in first, so all it would take is one more to draw enough of the votes.

And that notwithstanding the fact that, from the preliminary discussion, it seems people aren't even in agreement as to what Russell's best year even was.

[ardee]

Isn't voting done? Been 3 days right?

[GSP]

I was watching some miniclips from Hakeems 94 playoffs and Shaqa 2000, and I was thinking about something: is it possible that Hakeem was better offensively than Shaq when comparing those two postseasons, but that Shaq was better defensively? Its clear to me that 2000 Shaq>1994 Hakeem but I thought this was interesting.

[PTB Fan]

With all of the logic and discussion about Russell in the RPoY project, I'm pretty surprised that he's not even getting a shout-out for his Mt. Everest defensive peak.

I was the only one actually breaking down what Russell did in each individual season during the RPoY project, so I'm not sure why it would be expected that anyone would be talking about him now. There's no way in hell he would be a candidate for the #1 peak of all time, or be in the top five since there are so many offensive players to talk about. A defensive season will never be seriously considered as the greatest peak ever. That's just the way it is. I don't expect Russell to be a serious candidate until the latter half of the top 10 at the earliest. I expect he might appear somewhere in the top 15, as there are nine offensive players who immediately come to mind whose seasons I could see being voted in first, so all it would take is one more to draw enough of the votes.

And that notwithstanding the fact that, from the preliminary discussion, it seems people aren't even in agreement as to what Russell's best year even was.

Ugh.. I hate when a guy like Russell gets overlooked. He's without a doubt top 10 member and has a good case for the top 5, if not more. It doesn't mean that if he doesn't fit in the modern definition of dominating the game, that he should be thrown out of the discussions...

[ThaRegul8r]

With all of the logic and discussion about Russell in the RPoY project, I'm pretty surprised that he's not even getting a shout-out for his Mt. Everest defensive peak.

I was the only one actually breaking down what Russell did in each individual season during the RPoY project, so I'm not sure why it would be expected that anyone would be talking about him now. There's no way in hell he would be a candidate for the #1 peak of all time, or be in the top five since there are so many offensive players to talk about. A defensive season will never be seriously considered as the greatest peak ever. That's just the way it is. I don't expect Russell to be a serious candidate until the latter half of the top 10 at the earliest. I expect he might appear somewhere in the top 15, as there are nine offensive players who immediately come to mind whose seasons I could see being voted in first, so all it would take is one more to draw enough of the votes.

And that notwithstanding the fact that, from the preliminary discussion, it seems people aren't even in agreement as to what Russell's best year even was.

Ugh.. I hate when a guy like Russell gets overlooked. He's without a doubt top 10 member and has a good case for the top 5, if not more. It doesn't mean that if he doesn't fit in the modern definition of dominating the game, that he should be thrown out of the discussions...

I'm just telling it like it is. I call it as I see it. Russell has no chance for top five. None. Going strictly with "modern" players first, are you telling me Russell will get a majority vote over one of Jordan, Shaq, Magic, or Bird? That leaves one spot left. You've got LeBron advocates. Hakeem. That's six. Kareem will go. Seven. Wilt. Eight. Duncan. That's nine, leaving one more spot for whomever else might be nominated. Maybe J's '76, depending on how many people discount the ABA completely. Meaning the best he could do is just sneak in the top ten, but there's a good chance he gets in somewhere from 10-15.